America Is Not the Greatest Country in the World Anymore

D_Percy_Prettywillie

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The title of this thread references the first episode of Aaron Sorkin's newest television drama, Newsroom. In the pilot, anchorman Will McAvoy is introduced addressing a group of college students, representing the "neutral center" between the left leaning and right leaning commentators. The left and right puppets drone on the same drivel we've heard from both sides for a while with the moderator needling Will for answers and receiving only glib, intentionally vague answers until a student stands up and asks the panel to describe in "one sentence or less..." why America is the greatest country in the world.

The lefty answers diversity and opportunity and the right wing guy says freedom and freedom ("so let's keep it that way.") Will's first answer is the New York Jets. The moderator isn't satisfied and Will comes up with the Declaration of Independence, James Madison, and the Constitution. Still unsatisfied the moderator continues to needle Will, holding him to a "human moment" standard, and finally Will snaps.

Below is a truncated version of the speech directed at the owner of the original query (shortened for the purposes of this thread.)

And you—sorority girl—yeah—just in case you accidentally wander into a voting booth one day, there are some things you should know, and one of them is that there is absolutely no evidence to support the statement that we're the greatest country in the world. We're seventh in literacy, twenty-seventh in math, twenty-second in science, forty-ninth in life expectancy, 178th in infant mortality, third in median household income, number four in labor force, and number four in exports. We lead the world in only three categories: number of incarcerated citizens per capita, number of adults who believe angels are real, and defense spending, where we spend more than the next twenty-six countries combined, twenty-five of whom are allies. None of this is the fault of a 20-year-old college student, but you, nonetheless, are without a doubt, a member of the WORST-period-GENERATION-period-EVER-period, so when you ask what makes us the greatest country in the world, I don't know what the fuck you're talking about?! Yosemite?!!!

After some very light research (seriously- I just wikipedia'd each stat, which was apparently enough for the fact checking staff at The Newsroom as well since they match up down to our defense spending statistics) I found the speech to be more than less "accurate." But that isn't what struck me as... engaging about the scene. While Will goes on into an aria hearkening to yesteryear, this first part of the speech is what struck a note with me.

My attraction to Sorkin's writing isn't the universe he creates it's the idea that human beings could ever interact with one another in such fashions. It is happening-now science fiction (I'm as in love with language as anyone I know and, with the three smartest people I've ever met, I couldn't achieve the warp speed dialogue of a standard Sorkin show.)

So, before you lampoon me as a left-Sorkin-loving-know-nothing (though all of those things could be true in some sense) let me move beyond my personal love with the universe that is presented and bring it back to the real world where we converse in less than 300 words per second.

We tout ourselves, as Americans, as top of the pile, the best of the best, and we look to our pasts to verify that notion. Our politicians espouse it, of course, because they would never be elected if they did anything else. But it's the people that I suppose concern me- we embrace this notion of our being the absolute best gift humanity has ever received short of fire and my question and reasoning for writing this thread is to ask this- why?

If you believe there's some "X-Factor" that makes the United States of America the greatest country in the world, what is it and can you justify it? Math isn't on our side but statistics only convey so much (surprise-surprise- math isn't on our side.) There are other things to consider but, in my case, after being so swayed by the writing and acting, I'm having a hard time coming up with justification for my own star-spangled patriotism.

What do you think? Is America the greatest country in the world? Was it ever? Could it be again?




JSZ​
 

rob_just_rob

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What do you think?

I think you guys take your national self-image way too seriously.

Is America the greatest country in the world?

You're asking for an objective answer to a subjective question... this does not compute. Some people like it, some don't. Some people get a lot of personal benefit from being American residents, and many don't. You can cite all the World Fact Book stats and UN studies you like, but they won't affect the personal (visceral) opinions of many (most?) Americans on this subject, one bit.

Was it ever? Could it be again?


See above.
 

B_jdunhill

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This show is so one of the smartest hours on television. As most of Sorkin's work is. Appointment television. Fantastic.
 

D_Percy_Prettywillie

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You can cite all the World Fact Book stats and UN studies you like, but they won't affect the personal (visceral) opinions of many (most?) Americans on this subject, one bit.

ThatI wholeheartedly agree with and it is that visceral opinion that I'm questioning. You've termed it an objective question with a subjective answer, and to some extent, I can agree with that too save for the fact that America is touted as such by everyone from talking heads to historical text. Empirical evidence (the sort World Fact Books and UN studies won't disabuse any American with an opinion of one way or the other) exists in that our contributions to the history of humanity shouldn't be ignored when approaching the question.

I don't think the question is binary. It isn't only an emotional question with a subjective answer nor is it a factual question with a factual answer- it is somewhere in between where it effectively encompasses both, especially for American's who are so emphatically in the affirmative column.

Addendum:
I probably won't answer every reply but to the ones, like the aforementioned, I will to the ones I have any response to.


JSZ​
 

D_Percy_Prettywillie

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I think that America has lost its humanity.


I don't think that is a necessarily unfair assessment given our behavior in many (specific) areas in the new century but it could be applied in any number of directions from there dependent upon the values of the person making it. Could you expound on that a little more? I ask because (and this is true of the inception of this thread as well) I'm curious as to what other people genuinely think, absent the need to actually debate the merits of what is said.


JSZ​
 

Bob Ross

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I think you guys take your national self-image way too seriously.



You're asking for an objective answer to a subjective question... this does not compute. Some people like it, some don't. Some people get a lot of personal benefit from being American residents, and many don't. You can cite all the World Fact Book stats and UN studies you like, but they won't affect the personal (visceral) opinions of many (most?) Americans on this subject, one bit.



See above.

Agreed. Further, any time you hear/heard rhetoric proclaiming "America is the greatest country on the face of the Earth, blah blah blah" its usually by someone who benefits professionally and/or politically by saying so. Maybe I'm cynical but it just seems like its a total bullshit thing to say: sure, it makes everyone feel warm inside...Doesn't solve any problems though.

I think that America has lost its humanity.

FUCK! ZOMBIES!? Gotta get me gun, brb
 

Bob Ross

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We tout ourselves, as Americans, as top of the pile, the best of the best, and we look to our pasts to verify that notion. Our politicians espouse it, of course, because they would never be elected if they did anything else. But it's the people that I suppose concern me- we embrace this notion of our being the absolute best gift humanity has ever received short of fire and my question and reasoning for writing this thread is to ask this- why?

If you believe there's some "X-Factor" that makes the United States of America the greatest country in the world, what is it and can you justify it? Math isn't on our side but statistics only convey so much (surprise-surprise- math isn't on our side.) There are other things to consider but, in my case, after being so swayed by the writing and acting, I'm having a hard time coming up with justification for my own star-spangled patriotism.

What do you think? Is America the greatest country in the world? Was it ever? Could it be again?

There are nationalistic elements in every country though...Doesn't make it any less brainless for the public to eat it up. However, I don't think its solely an American idea
 

D_Percy_Prettywillie

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@Bob Ross (forgive me for doing it in the the Facebook way, I just wanted to respond to both posts at once)

You're absolutely right. It isn't specific to any one nation and it isn't specifically American to believe that theirs is the greatest country on Earth. But, as an American, I hear this espoused more rigorously and more emphatically both from and about the United States than any other country in the world, deserved or not.

Canadians now make more, on average, than Americans. And their response wasn't to nominate themselves as the greatest civilization the heavens ever bestowed upon mankind (the way an American politician might have to grab votes and the way said voters might embrace to feel better) but instead said we're just losing more slowly.

It is a brainless sort of rhetoric that I've no doubt every country deals with in some sense but the fundamental notion remains- America is often touted as such both from without and from within and what I seek isn't necessarily an answer so much as it is justification for why, on either side of the answer, anyone out their willing to respond thinks such is so.



JSZ​
 

D_Percy_Prettywillie

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. Maybe I'm cynical but it just seems like its a total bullshit thing to say: sure, it makes everyone feel warm inside...Doesn't solve any problems though.


But can it through the right orator? Can we be called to action to believe that our contributions in the 20th century could easily be matched or surpassed in the 21st? We believed, once, that we could do anything we set our minds to, that nothing was beyond our comprehension and that (in Mackenzie McHales dialogue) "we can do better."

Maybe, now, it is a bullshit thing to say. Maybe it always was a bullshit thing to say. Maybe that won't ever be true.. but is there any chance it could be and if it could, what would it take?



JSZ​
 

Mensch1351

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Well....let's see -- I do believe that we are still number one when it comes to the generous response of people (and a nation) to world tragedies! I think we made a tremendous impact on the world with the peace corps. And for all of our faults and foibles -- I believe we are still the free-ist people on the face of the planet! I also believe our Constitution stands as one of the longest standing in world Democracies.

But ONE of the things in what makes America truly great is what you will witness at the Olympics. When the parade of nations takes place you will see many flags, peoples and cultures. And yet - we are the ONLY nation in the world that can "boast" that every one of those cultures is represented in our nation. We have absorbed individuals from every nation on the face of the planet into our melting pot -- and that IS our national identity! We're still learning to live with that diversity, but it is our claim. I would also argue that our nation boasts some of the finest and diverse natural resources ever put on the planet! it's why the Japanese take lots of pictures of our lawns, farms and National Parks!

Finally (there's probably more I can say but I'm tired!) It has been 60+ years since WW2 and 90 years since the Great Depression. I mention this because when America is faced with great adversity, we emerge with a greater understanding of who we are and where we're going. When America gets "roused" we put our igenuity, our resources and our grit and determination to accomplish whatever needs to be done. Sad to say it takes adversity to make this happen, but unfortunately for most humans it takes adversity to rouse them individually to response! And mass adversity leads to revolution (historically!)

What I think we are truly lacking now is vision. Just who and what do we want to be 50 years from now.? We seem to drift from election to election, from Wall Street high to Wall Street low. We're in a period of sadly believing the "other party" is the real enemy! Red States/Blue States; gays vs straights; pro-life vs pro-choice; 99% vs 1%; the insured vs the uninsured; the employed vs the unemployed -- them's vs the us's! Pshaw! When the Oklahoma bombing occured there was a traffic jam in reponse to the call for needed blood! That's what's great about America. We come together when the need arises. We need the voices that call us to unity for the causes that effect us all! Then watch us lead the way for the world to follow.
 

Drifterwood

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The problem with the question is that most Americans don't seek greatness, they and their government just want to think that they are better. The vast majority are not, by any measure.
 
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deleted15807

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What do you think? Is America the greatest country in the world? Was it ever? Could it be again?

But the thread title implies that it once was and has now lost the title. All the 'great' empires of the past have all risen and fallen. So to will the fate of all empires.
 

D_Adam_Baldwon

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To say that America is the greatest is purely subjective. Of course, statistically we along with any other nation cannot be number one at everything. It is nearly impossible. It's like if one country were to win gold at every event in the Olympics. It just can't happen because some other country will be able to do it quicker, faster, longer, etc.

So do we deserve to have the title of "the greatest nation?" I believe that is up to the individual and not a society as a whole. People make of what a country has to offer, at the same token a country (the government from the state to the national level) are able to offer their citizens certain advantages. Now whether the government does this to its fullest capacity remains to this day a huge debate.

But what I think what makes America great is that we as a nation have accomplished a lot even during the face of adversity. We like to think of ourselves as innovators and high achievers. Of course, this may not have always been the case, and there might have been times when other countries were/are able to do it more satisfactorily.

We like our freedom and we enjoy not having the government to not be so obstructive in our daily lives and the pursuit of our dreams. Of course, in these hard economic times it may appear to be harder to achieve the "American Dream." But we are a persistant nation who doesn't back down easily. So yes, maybe we aren't the greatest in all categories of human development (as statistics have shown), but I think we do not lack spirit and faith in our country and people as a whole.
 

Bardox

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For those who haven't seen the open this thread is talking about....

The Newsroom - YouTube

This is a good slap in the face for americans that mindlessly yell out things like "America is the greatest country in the world!" and don't know anything about how America compares to other nations.

The thing I love about this series is it speaks intelligently about news stroies and not just preaching on a party line from one side or the other trying to spin something. Can you imagine the reaction if Bill O'Reilly or Ed Schultz dropped the opinion commentary and human interest bullshit and just reported simple facts.

"Oh my god... truth! Could it be? A real live news man? I thought they all died?"
 

MrTrunk

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Well....let's see -- I do believe that we are still number one when it comes to the generous response of people (and a nation) to world tragedies! I think we made a tremendous impact on the world with the peace corps. And for all of our faults and foibles -- I believe we are still the free-ist people on the face of the planet! I also believe our Constitution stands as one of the longest standing in world Democracies.

But ONE of the things in what makes America truly great is what you will witness at the Olympics. When the parade of nations takes place you will see many flags, peoples and cultures. And yet - we are the ONLY nation in the world that can "boast" that every one of those cultures is represented in our nation. We have absorbed individuals from every nation on the face of the planet into our melting pot -- and that IS our national identity! We're still learning to live with that diversity, but it is our claim. I would also argue that our nation boasts some of the finest and diverse natural resources ever put on the planet! it's why the Japanese take lots of pictures of our lawns, farms and National Parks!

Finally (there's probably more I can say but I'm tired!) It has been 60+ years since WW2 and 90 years since the Great Depression. I mention this because when America is faced with great adversity, we emerge with a greater understanding of who we are and where we're going. When America gets "roused" we put our igenuity, our resources and our grit and determination to accomplish whatever needs to be done. Sad to say it takes adversity to make this happen, but unfortunately for most humans it takes adversity to rouse them individually to response! And mass adversity leads to revolution (historically!)

What I think we are truly lacking now is vision. Just who and what do we want to be 50 years from now.? We seem to drift from election to election, from Wall Street high to Wall Street low. We're in a period of sadly believing the "other party" is the real enemy! Red States/Blue States; gays vs straights; pro-life vs pro-choice; 99% vs 1%; the insured vs the uninsured; the employed vs the unemployed -- them's vs the us's! Pshaw! When the Oklahoma bombing occured there was a traffic jam in reponse to the call for needed blood! That's what's great about America. We come together when the need arises. We need the voices that call us to unity for the causes that effect us all! Then watch us lead the way for the world to follow.



I wasn't going to comment on this thread as I have only visited America a few times so I felt I shouldn't comment on an entire country based on a few holidays.......BUT!

Looking at your first point.....most generous people? how are you measuring that?? Lets say amount of money given in aid to based on GDP. USA is 19th! So your not as generous a people as..........Portugal, New Zealand, Austria, Ireland, Denmark, Norway, Finland, Belgium, UK or and Canada! plus many more.
Yes you give the most money but your the richest country in the world so you should....but as a % of GDP you give 0.21%.....know who give just 0.02% less than the USA?? GREECE! with its massive financial problems, huge austerity measures it still gives almost as much as USA in aid based on GDP.

The Olympic and the flag and the culture, diversity thing. Your showing how blinkered you are to the world. Many, many, many other countries will be represented by people from all backgrounds, religion, sexuality, colour, race...whatever. Small examples from my experience where I live.
A class I teach was studying diversity. As a task I stuck a huge map to the board and each student had a pin they could stick on the board in the country of their origin and then present a little bit of information about that country. In 1 class of 24 kids aged 11, we were representing 19 different countries! Oh and there are another 1000 kids in the school so imagine how many different countries would be represented in just 1 school!
Second example.......if I take a small walk say 5 mins to the shops I will most likely hear at least 4, 5, 6 different languages on the way (Yes I live in London and not all of the UK is as diverse)
UK had the largest empire the world has ever seen. Countries spanning the entire world. SO for longer than you can imagine we have had people from all walks of life living on our shores.

America is a beautiful country I will say that. Some amazing natural wonders. But again the world is out there and they have amazing natural wonders as well.

Hmm and you had to bring up the WAR
America entered WW1 in 1917.....6 long years after it started. Of course you traded with us in that time helping us out, taking in money...thats what your good at. THEN when your ships were being attacked you joined in.
Did you tip the balance and help win the war, of course you did.....but bare in mind that most of Europe's armies, air force, navy had been destroying each other for 6 years and your armed forced had hardly been touched.
It's almost as bad as sitting back at the side of the ring letting two boxers slug it out for 12 rounds, then you run in just at the end knock out the guy and get your hand lifted with the winner.
WW2 you were a bit more speedy but again a bit late. Helped out from the start by lending and selling ships etc. I still think it was shameful of America to declare it was a European war for a long time. Only getting involved after your own country was attacked by Japan.....Last time I checked Japan was not in Europe as well.
Once the US were in....You gave anything and everything to win and many American troops died along side their allies. Fought hard and came out victorious. A proud moment for all allies.

Hardly lead the way in those wars though wouldn't you say? lets call it fashionable late.


God it seems like I'm slamming America into the ground when in fact I like America.
Greatest country in the world...NOPE! What is? For me there isn't one. Each country has a merits and all countries have there drawbacks.


What some people in the US don't understand is that the rest of the world see America as a people who beat their chest and shout AMERICA IS THE GREATEST COUNTRY IN THE WORLD!! the loudest so it must be true.
I would say most people from whatever country are patriotic and love their country....but don't feel the need to shout about it.

A little modesty goes a long way
 

D_Percy_Prettywillie

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And that is why I felt this thread was warranted-

Part of Will McAvoy's diatribe includes the fact that of the two hundred plus sovereign nations on the Earth, something like 180 of them have freedom. America isn't the only place you can be free and yet we are the loudest and quickest to espouse that we're the greatest country in the world. In fact, I think of the 180 other countries with freedom, we're the only country that has that as a slogan, a motto, a bumper sticker beyond election cycles.

It is ingrained in our cultural mythos that we are number one. A lot of people have brought up the reasonable argument that every country has its pros and cons and that no one country can be the best at everything. That is obviously the truth. But America stands alone as the one country that embraces the idea that not only can one country be superior to all others but that America is it and that other countries actually agree.

Patriotism was once defined as the believe that the country you were born in is better than all others based on the fact that you were born there. Is that all that America has had going for in the past hundred years? We're patriotic because the Wright Brothers and Martin Luther King and Steve Jobs were all born here? Is it the contributions of the past that we rest our laurels on or is there still something propelling us forward and perpetuating this deep belief that we're the greatest country in the world?




JSZ​
 

MrTrunk

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I remember (Somewhere in the back of my brain) during university a guest lecture was presenting something....(details of what I have no idea...was a few years ago)

But he asked us to think of what country each one of these statements would apply to....

Richest country in the world?

Highest education standards and literacy in the world?

Largest armed forces in the world?

Greatest advances in science?

Most advanced technology in the world?

Greatest advances in Medicine?

So of course we in the class were thinking....Armed forces must be America, Richest must be America as well. Education?? hmm not sure, Medicine, science, technology?? America again, China? Japan?.

then the last slide had the answer....
.
.
.
.
.
.

GREAT BRITAIN
*In 1900*

Gets you thinking.....of course today I would say UK doesn't top any of those but only a 100 or so years ago we were ahead in all those things.
Where ever you think your country is in the world it can change quickly, but I think you should love wherever your born.
 

Wbnhb

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I watch the show because I like the writing. Having said that, its crap leftist propoganda to the n-th degree.

I particularly liked the episode where Will Mcavoy (sp?) began his telecast with an apology for the failure of the American Media to accurately report news and facts apart from simply trying to get ratiings. However, the show has been nothing but one-sided half truths that do nothing but slam republicans and the tea party.

Its sad how many people buy into propoganda.
 
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D_Percy_Prettywillie

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. However, the show has been nothing but one-sided half truths that do nothing but slam republicans and the tea party.

Its sad how many people by into propoganda.

I don't think Newsroom turned anyone around one way or the other; if you were a Tea party member and watched the show, you're still a tea party member. If you were against the tea party, you didn't need Newsroom to tell you why.

I don't think it has been one-sided at all. They've gone out of their way to showcase Republicans as the loyal opposition, casting Will himself as a registered republican, angry that his party is being held hostage by the radical right. They've discussed the bias toward fairness that exists in the media (the assumption that there are two sides to every story) and how largely the media is responsible for it. Charlie and Leona actually had the conversation we're having now in episode 3; she says they're doing the news for the left, Charlie counters that they're doing the news for the center- with facts. They present the facts regardless of whether or not some people disagree with them (the Jury is in on evolution.)

That said is is an Aaron Sorkin show. His ideal universe is one wherein the women are zany, everyone is in the 99th percentile in terms of intelligence, and the south exists solely to exemplify a weekly cautionary tale. It is certainly unsympathetic to stupid and it makes no secret about its disgust for the Tea Party but I hardly think it is propaganda for the left because of the fact.

Propaganda for the left is Josh Lyman in the West Wing. This is more like an appeal for the idealized version of a rational center.



JSZ​
 
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