American actors playing Shakespeare...?

Calboner

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But seriously the best preserved dialect to those common in Elizabethan times is that of the Appalachian region of the US -- Hillbilly basically.

I've heard this bit of lore before. I think it is based on selective perception. There are certainly oddities of Appalachian pronunciation that result from the preservation of traits that were lost in other accents of English. (I can't think of any examples right now, but I have read discussions of them.) The same is true of Scottish accents. That doesn't mean that Shakespeare's players would have sounded recognizably like hillbillies to us any more than they would have sounded like Scotsmen to us. In fact, the antiquated features of Appalachian accents reflect the Scots-Irish descent of the speakers more than a descent from the speech or the people of 16th-century England.
 
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Even though Stratford and Birmingham are in different counties? Anyway, his players would have spoken with London accents, I believe.

We know a fair amount about the phonetics of English speech in Shakespeare's time, in that dialectologists have reconstructed which vowels were assigned to which syllables, how they were differentiated from each other in quality, which consonants were pronounced and which ones dropped, and so on. But this still gives no very good idea of the auditory Gestalt that the accent presented to the ear. A person who is acquainted with a variety of accents can recognize them, or at least can tell when someone is speaking with an unfamiliar accent, within a few syllables, sometimes in an instant. What we think of as "an accent" is not just a matter of individual sounds but of qualities of vocal timbre and intonation. On these points, we know almost nothing about how the players of the Globe Theatre would have sounded.
The Birmingham accent (Brummie) is made up from Warwickshire,Staffordshire and Worcestshire dialects.His players would have spoken in all manner of regional accents because then, as now, London was made up from people from all over the country,besides there is no such thing as a London accent there are different accents depending what part you come from.Possibly the majority now speak Estuary English,I know I do!
 

javyn

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If you are going to bar Americans from acting in Shakespeare's plays, you have got to bar all women too since back then all actors were men.
 

D_Gunther Snotpole

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Sutherland's got a beautiful voice but a very Canadian one.
Fixed that for you, Bbucko.
(Of course, most Canadian accents are indistinguishable from most American ones. When I'm in the States, no one ever asks if I'm from Canada. They ask what state I'm from.)

As for the general question, I don't think any group of actors anywhere should swear off doing Shakespeare. He's a bit like Bach, immune to the idiosyncracies of the instrument(s) he's played on.

That said, for my ear, there's something particularly pleasing about a really nice delivery of Shakespeare through a true English accent.

That's only one factor in the mix, but other things being equal (which they seldom are), I would often prefer the native Englishman.
 

Bbucko

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Fixed that for you, Bbucko.
(Of course, most Canadian accents are indistinguishable from most American ones. When I'm in the States, no one ever asks if I'm from Canada. They ask what state I'm from.)

My ex and I traveled extensively through Quebec and Ontario from 1996-2000, where I heard and grew accustomed to at least one Canadian accent (in English: Montrealais is another story) when passing time in Toronto. It always made me smile.

Sorry about the Sutherland misappropriation. I'm glad I have you to keep me on my toes, doll.
 

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Apparently the American actor Nicholas Cage is against the idea,claiming it just doesn't sound right.Personally it sounds much more stilted to me when Americans try to do Shakespeare attempting an English accent.What are the pro's and con's?...

Some believe the American accent is actually closer to the period sound of 400 years ago then the Brits today. That being said Nic Cage is a mess. His hair needs to be shaved off or he needs to wear a hat. I am embarressed for his ass
 
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Some believe the American accent is actually closer to the period sound of 400 years ago then the Brits today. That being said Nic Cage is a mess. His hair needs to be shaved off or he needs to wear a hat. I am embarressed for his ass
Where on earth did you get that theory,a Christmas cracker?!
 
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CUBE

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Where on earth did you get that theory,a Christmas cracker?!

I have 10 years of college degrees and have researched dialects. The theory is based on phonetics of the Southern Mountain region in the US...blah blah blah....but you can believe it came from a cracker..whatever...you aren't worth the entire explanation
 

Calboner

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Some believe the American accent is actually closer to the period sound of 400 years ago then the Brits today.

Where on earth did you get that theory,a Christmas cracker?!

I have 10 years of college degrees and have researched dialects. The theory is based on phonetics of the Southern Mountain region in the US...blah blah blah....but you can believe it came from a cracker..whatever...you aren't worth the entire explanation
You're quite right on the last point, Cube.

Back to the subject, though. All of the accents of the English-speaking world today resemble the accents of 400 years ago in some respects and diverge from them in others. For instance, at that time there was no elision of "r" after vowels: in that respect, American accents (apart from the "R-dropping" ones of the Northeastern coast and the Southern plains) are closer than today's English accents to the English accents of 400 years ago. On the other hand, English accents of today preserve the systematic contrast of long and short vowels, which the accents of North America have lost (we preserve distinctions of vowel quality, but not of quantity): in that respect, modern English accents are closer. English in 1600 did not yet have the contrast between the vowels of "put" and "putt," or between those of "cam" and "calm," features preserved in Northern English accents and some Irish accents today. And so on.
 

D_Chaumbrelayne_Copprehead

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I have 10 years of college degrees and have researched dialects. The theory is based on phonetics of the Southern Mountain region in the US...blah blah blah....but you can believe it came from a cracker..whatever...you aren't worth the entire explanation

There are those who would say that the people who speak with that dialect are themselves crackers ............... :rolleyes2:
 

jason_els

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Forgive me for saying so but I find good Dublin Irish to sound better in Ireland than in England. There's a lyricism in the speaking which I find amenable to the ear.
 

midlifebear

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My only requirement regarding Shakespeare is that his works be seen and heard -- NOT read. I can't think of a bigger waste of time than forcing students to read The Tempest. Also, if 'Mericuhn actors are on stage, as long as they know how to breathe and speak in iambic pentameter (or inverse meter, when necessary) and are understood by their audience, I'm OK with that.

Not all of Willie's works are written in straight iambic pentameter, five lines to a verse, but his ability to write (even after so many centuries of being rewritten) to the natural beat of the human heart is quite amazing.

OK, so if you need to read Shakespeare, read his sonnets. But reading his plays rather than giving yourself over to a live production is, to me, a rather stupid thing to do -- unless you've gathered a group to read a play out loud so you can all hear what's going on.
 

jason_els

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My only requirement regarding Shakespeare is that his works be seen and heard -- NOT read. I can't think of a bigger waste of time than forcing students to read The Tempest. Also, if 'Mericuhn actors are on stage, as long as they know how to breathe and speak in iambic pentameter (or inverse meter, when necessary) and are understood by their audience, I'm OK with that.

Not all of Willie's works are written in straight iambic pentameter, five lines to a verse, but his ability to write (even after so many centuries of being rewritten) to the natural beat of the human heart is quite amazing.

OK, so if you need to read Shakespeare, read his sonnets. But reading his plays rather than giving yourself over to a live production is, to me, a rather stupid thing to do -- unless you've gathered a group to read a play out loud so you can all hear what's going on.

I agree completely!! I got into so much trouble in high school about this. I argued that reading a play is like reading a description of a painting. It's useless. The artist's medium is the message (thank you Mr. McLuhan!) to separate the words from the actors and the stage is like reading sheet music rather than hearing the music. If Shakespeare had wanted to write a book he would have. He didn't.

Why read The Tempest when you can watch Walter Pidgeon and Leslie Nielson do it (very well I might add) in Forbidden Planet? At the very least watch a good production of the play on screen if you can't see it live. Watch Olivier's films. They're marvelous.

Avoid any Romeo and Juliet or Hamlet which doesn't feature actors of remotely the right age. It ruins the pathos. Nicol Williamson's Macbeth is terrific. You want a Macbeth as creepy and eerie and over-the-top as possible.
 
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I have 10 years of college degrees and have researched dialects. The theory is based on phonetics of the Southern Mountain region in the US...blah blah blah....but you can believe it came from a cracker..whatever...you aren't worth the entire explanation
I can't imagine where you obtained your numerous degrees from,Mr Disney perhaps?! but I think you would qualify for a refund.You clearly don't have any knowledge of the English spoken during Shakespeare's time, it definately did'nt any way resemble the American accent.Which,by the way has its phonetic roots in the (old) Suffolk accent.Pleased to imform you. P.S. Mr Cage speaks very highly of you,I believe.....!
 

midlifebear

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I agree completely!! I got into so much trouble in high school about this. I argued that reading a play is like reading a description of a painting. It's useless. The artist's medium is the message (thank you Mr. McLuhan!) to separate the words from the actors and the stage is like reading sheet music rather than hearing the music. If Shakespeare had wanted to write a book he would have. He didn't.
Well, there are still those academic hold outs who insist he didn't even write the plays in the portfolios ascribed to be "by his pen" Although there may be some truth to their claim, I regard them the same way I regard "birthers."

Why read The Tempest when you can watch Walter Pidgeon and Leslie Nielson do it (very well I might add) in Forbidden Planet? At the very least watch a good production of the play on screen if you can't see it live. Watch Olivier's films. They're marvelous.


Good catch on that Forbidden Planet reference. But even a bad production of The Tempest comes across as an incredible celebration of life and all it's pageantry.

Avoid any Romeo and Juliet or Hamlet which doesn't feature actors of remotely the right age. It ruins the pathos. Nicol Williamson's Macbeth is terrific. You want a Macbeth as creepy and eerie and over-the-top as possible.

"By the bleeding of my gums, something puss-like this way comes!" And -- by extension -- avoid "actors" who refer to MacBeth as "That Scottish play!" unless, of course, you're an actor. Otherwise, the rest of us have little to worry about.

Seriously, I need to get you, Mr. Jason_Els, and Bbucko alone in a private booth in the Russian Tea Room for an afternoon. Just Asking is welcome, too. There's so much to dish about. And Calboner can come, too.
 
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jason_els

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Well, there are still those academic hold outs who insist he didn't even write the plays in the portfolios ascribed to be "by his pen" Although there may be some truth to their claim, I regard them the same way I regard "birthers."

I say to them, give it up. Until there is any new evidence regarding the authorship, I'll still say Shakespeare wrote them.

Good catch on that Forbidden Planet reference. But even a bad production of The Tempest comes across as an incredible celebration of life and all it's pageantry.

Films like Forbidden Planet are a great way to generate interest in Shakespeare among kids as the language isn't so difficult to follow for them. In my opinion, a great Shakespearean actor can make all the words come alive so they seem conversationally easy to understand. Sure you might have to look-up bodkin and fardels, but that's minor.

"By the bleeding of my gums, something puss-like this way comes!" And -- by extension -- avoid "actors" who refer to MacBeth as "That Scottish play!" unless, of course, you're an actor. Otherwise, the rest of us have little to worry about.

Seriously, I need to get you, Mr. Jason_Els, and Bbucko alone in a private booth in the Russian Tea Room for an afternoon. Just Asking is welcome, too. There's so much to dish about. And Calboner can come, too.

Well that ain't quite happening any time soon as you won't set foot in New York and you live in three places remote to both of us. I may be going to Orlando in November or December for a consult at a cancer hospital in which case I'm gonig to try to take a day or two to visit Uncle Buck and Mem. I'm trying to put together a bit of a European tour in the spring if I'm well enough. There are many people I'd like to see and you're on that list. Please tell me you spend spring in Barcelona and not Buenos Aires.
 

midlifebear

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I say to them, give it up. Until there is any new evidence regarding the authorship, I'll still say Shakespeare wrote them.

I feel the same way, me some too, wow! (Unless Ben Johnson and Christopher Marlowe really did try to pull one over everyone's eyes by creating Shakespeare just so they could get away with writing more than we realize and stay ahead of the law at the time.


Well that ain't quite happening any time soon as you won't set foot in New York and you live in three places remote to both of us. I may be going to Orlando in November or December for a consult at a cancer hospital in which case I'm gonig to try to take a day or two to visit Uncle Buck and Mem. I'm trying to put together a bit of a European tour in the spring if I'm well enough. There are many people I'd like to see and you're on that list. Please tell me you spend spring in Barcelona and not Buenos Aires.

Me and The Squeeze usually wing back to Barcelona the 1st week of May. Then we return to the City of Good Airs the last week of October so we don't miss the five weeks of jacarandas blooming along all of the city streets like giant, billowing sweet blue clouds. After that, BsAs is just a place to hide from winter during December through April. I could probably manage a detour through Miami instead of Atlanta. But The Squeeze is still considered "unwelcome" by immigration. They won't issue him a 90-day visa because his profession as a "social worker with advanced degrees" doesn't have the cache that resonates he would return to Argentina for work. At least that was their last excuse.

It's not that I hate NYC. I just don't get the opportunity to have more than a five or six hour layover when using Delta Sky Miles. Plus, it ain't like the old days when the New David Theatre was open or the Mark Street Baths.
 

jason_els

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Amazing. Your legal husband can't get into the country and you're a citizen. Certainly leagues away from the war bride days. American immigration is a bitch and wholly unreasonable in many cases. I sympathize with you.

FWIW, Miami wouldn't work either. It'd have to be near Uncle Buck and he's not in Miami. I'll leave it to him to say where he is.
 

Calboner

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My only requirement regarding Shakespeare is that his works be seen and heard -- NOT read. I can't think of a bigger waste of time than forcing students to read The Tempest.

[. . .]

But reading his plays rather than giving yourself over to a live production is, to me, a rather stupid thing to do -- unless you've gathered a group to read a play out loud so you can all hear what's going on.

I agree completely!! I got into so much trouble in high school about this. I argued that reading a play is like reading a description of a painting. It's useless. The artist's medium is the message (thank you Mr. McLuhan!) to separate the words from the actors and the stage is like reading sheet music rather than hearing the music. If Shakespeare had wanted to write a book he would have. He didn't.

Why read The Tempest when you can watch Walter Pidgeon and Leslie Nielson do it (very well I might add) in Forbidden Planet? At the very least watch a good production of the play on screen if you can't see it live. Watch Olivier's films. They're marvelous.

I completely disagree with both of you on this. To take the easiest target first, the answer to Jason's rhetorical question, "Why read The Tempest when you can watch Walter Pidgeon and Leslie Nielsen [spelling corrected] do it in Forbidden Planet?" is that the movie is not The Tempest. It shares with The Tempest certain elements of plot. But the plots are the least original thing in Shakespeare's plays. Most of them are copied wholesale from other sources. (I think The Tempest is one of the few of which this is not known to be the case.) Of course, Shakespeare adapted his sources to his own purposes; but so did the makers of Forbidden Planet with theirs. The difference is that Shakespeare's plays do not gain interest from their relation to their antecedents, in the way that Forbidden Planet gains interest from its relation to The Tempest. The movie makers may be said to have interpreted Shakespeare; Shakespeare just stole things. The idea that there is no point in reading The Tempest if you can see Forbidden Planet does a disservice to the movie as well as to the play.

Second, Shakespeare wrote plays, which are works of words; he did not write performances (though he gave them). A performance is the work of the performers (and the director and all the others responsible); a play is the work of the writer. A performance may be good or bad: the merit of the play does not stand or fall with it. But a bad performance of a good play may make it seem like a bad play. And a good performance of a not-so-good play may make it seem much better than it is. The only way to form a just appreciation of the merits of a play is from the play itself, not from performances of it. One has to read it.

Third, Shakespeare's writing is extremely difficult for English-speaking people in our time to understand without study. When we watch a good performance, we can generally understand what is going on without understanding every line. That is better than reading -- or, for that matter, viewing -- without comprehension, but if you are going to argue that we miss things by not seeing the plays performed, you must also recognize how much we miss by not reading them. There are jokes, metaphors, plays on words, and just plain wonderful phrases that would have been perfectly intelligible to Shakespeare's audience but that are lost on us unless someone explains to us what they mean. That is not something that you get out of watching a performance. You need to read the text, ponder the lines, read the notes, re-read the text, and so on.

Finally, the analogy with music is a very good one, but I think Jason misinterprets it when he says that "to separate the words from the actors and the stage is like reading sheet music rather than hearing the music." For one thing, people who know how to read music do hear the music when they read the score. By the same token, people who are good at reading plays do not "separate the words from the actors and the stage" when they read them -- in the following sense: they separate the words from any particular performance that they have seen (if they have seen any), but they read the lines the way a skilled music-reader reads a score, hearing and seeing a performance in their heads. That is what it means to read a play. The main difference (pertinent here) between reading a score and reading a play is that reading scores is a very specific technical skill that takes years to develop -- I mean even to develop to minimal competence -- while reading a play is something that almost any literate person can do in at least a rudimentary way.

Not long ago, people who liked music and wanted to have frequent access to it had to become musicians. Today, thanks to the availability of recordings, most people enjoy music only in a passive capacity: they relegate the task of performing music to people with special skills, whose performances they listen to. We have not yet gotten to the point where people have a similarly passive relation to the written word, but if educators shared your view that reading plays is a waste of time, it would be not be long before they did so.
 
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