American English is Often Weird

Gillette

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OK - sorry - I was still on the theme of language alone - if you are talking about the broader culture that's entirely different. It is just that you used the phrase "lexicologically at least" - so I assumed you were referring mainly to the English lexicon.
No, you read that much correctly. I was referring to the language.

Latin along with Greek and numerous other languages have over time been melded together to give us what we now call English. Given that it was offered in the spirit of a joke I don't see what was worth picking at here.
 

ManlyBanisters

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No, you read that much correctly. I was referring to the language.

Latin along with Greek and numerous other languages have over time been melded together to give us what we now call English. Given that it was offered in the spirit of a joke I don't see what was worth picking at here.

Don't get your knickers in a knot pussywillow - I wasn't having a pop. Just asking for clarification - which you supplied. Humble thanks. :tongue:
 

Osiris

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Well yes, actually. You used, at one point, the word derived. That has an explicit meaning in Linguistics. English is derived from proto-Germanic. It has been influeneced by many other languages but that is not part of the derivation.

Germanic Languages

Wot? :wink:
 

Gillette

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The joke
:biggrin1:
They gave us English! Well sortof...after the fact...along with the Greeks...and others...after endless permutations...lexicologically at least...*pissing off now*...
Your reply
I know there are an awful lot of Latinate and Romanace words borrowed in to the English language but you are not seriously suggesting English is in any way derived from Latin, are you? No - you can't be! I'm reading that wrong. Do you just mean the writing system perhaps?

Well yes, actually. You used, at one point, the word derived. That has an explicit meaning in Linguistics. English is derived from proto-Germanic. It has been influeneced by many other languages but that is not part of the derivation.

Germanic Languages

I only used the word 'derived' after you injected it.
What was worth picking at the joke for again?
 

DC_DEEP

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Frankly - it was so unfunny I was completely unaware it WAS a joke til you pointed it out.

*drops it - moves to another thread*
Oh, go ahead and be disgruntled, if you choose to do so.

I, on the other hand, will remain pluperfectly gruntled... for the present.
 

midlifebear

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First, my apologies, I just have to add my $5.35 to this thread.

As a semi-retired, oversexed, middle-age, ‘Mericuhn male I’ve been teaching English as a Foreign Language (EFL) for exactly 10 years. The majority of my students have usually studied English for 6 years before they end up in one of my classes. They speak good. I try ta teach 'em to speak gooder.

They complain that English is difficult because of all the homophones (their, they’re, there, your, you’re) and that the pronouns are dumb (he, me she, we, him, her, them whom or I and why does the objective case matter?). I complain to my native French and Spanish speaking students that I find their languages hard to hear because of all the homophones I stumble over in Spanish and French. And I love to counter that the way pronouns are switched around before verbs as subjects, objects, and indirect objects is just as difficult for me – neener, neener, neener. And don’t get me started on them thar reflexive verbs; especially them irregular ones. Of course, I'm much more compassionate than they believe, but don’t tell them that.

One of Manchester United's previous coaches, Archie Knox (Scottish), Brian Kidd (Colyhurst, Manchester), or maybe it was Steve Mclaren (Fulford, York) – well, at least one of them if not all of them – was/were famous for being completely unintelligible, yet they all spoke perfect, native UK English – just different dialects. These dialects were often difficult for Manchester United players to understand; especially those from Brazil. With regard to English, the variety of dialects spoken in London, alone, is enough to confuse the nicest corn-fed boy from Kansas.

I grew up speaking English and French at home (Ma was Quebecois) and although my French is solid, my French friends often plead with me not to speak “their” language. It is, however, somehow perfectly acceptable for them to travel about Quebec and impose their linguistic ethnocentrism upon the tortured Quebecois. Amusingly, these same friends cannot seem to detect the variety of dialects spoken in their country: Mother France. Easy examples: compare the roundness of a Burgundian accent to the clipped mutterings spoken in Provence . . . and somewhere in between is the strongly nasalized enunciation of a Paris native? Oy! Yet, the French seem perfectly willing to put up with Suisse Deutsch, that dialectal amalgam of French that sounds like German or German that sounds like French spoken by the majority of Swiss. Actually, Suisse Deutsch is considered a distinct, separate language. But that’s another issue.

Many years ago I hauled my Intermountain West Ewetaw accent down to The University of Texas, Austin, to attend grad school (obtained an MA in Linguistics and a Piled Higher and Deeper in Anthropology). After six weeks in Austin, I called home and the first thing out of my mother’s mouth was “What has happened to your English?!” Of course, she was completely unaware that she had her own strong regional accent. And to this day I slip up and say I’m fixin’ ta go . . . or If’n ya wahnt. . . as well as the occasional Y’all (always when addressing more than one person, never when addressing an individual). After 5 years of living in Texas I could pretty much detect what part of the Republic a person hailed from. East Texas (panhandle) is strikingly different than Texan spoken around Del Rio. It took me a couple of years to detect the difference between Tyler and Taylor (one is near Round Rock the other’n isn’t) and Midland/Oddessa is completely different (at least to a Texan) than the way folks speak in Beaumont or up around Palestine. Folks from Dallas/Ft. Worth sound like Oklahomans compared to the fine people of San Anton(io). But all Texans, as do most southerners, have one thing in common: they understand the meaning of sweet? or unsweet? when enunciated as an interrogative.

Now I live half of the year in Barçelona, Spain (an accent heavily influenced by Catalán) and the other half in Buenos Aires, Argentina (porteños insist they say they speak Castellano -- AKA Spanish -- but they don’t). Porteños speak Rioplatense jammed full of lunfardo (a slang unique to BsAs) and it’s damn hard to get accustomed to, although it’s easy to mimic. Argentines also use the plural familiar Vosotros (vos) in place of the singular familiar tu (tuteo). It's comparable to folks from The South saying Y'all. In addition, Argentines throw standard Spanish grammar out the door and use their own grammatical invention to inflect vos. About 5 years ago after I first arrived in Buenos Aires I called my LTC/lover/fuck buddy/business partner in BCN and the first thing out of his mouth was “¿Qué pasó con tu castellano?!"

These days when I make my annual one-month pilgrimage to Nevada, imagine my surprise to hear my neighbors in Northern Nevada beginning to adopt an accent and speech patterns similar to those of Texans? I blame it on long-haul truckers and their deep-seated need for biscuits or grits with chicken gravy. I have to blame someone.

My point? Well, regardless of what a dictionary claims, and dictionaries are useful for discreet periods of time, all languages are in constant flux, change, evolution. Language is generative. And there is no such thing as one language being "superior" -- notice the quotes -- to another.

And if anyone wants to privately debate me why it is perfectly good grammar to end a sentence in English with a preposition or to, maybe, split an infinitive (are you with me?) then by all means “Bring it on.”

Just remember when speaking to speak nice. But if you ever write or say "irregardless" I'll whap you up the side of the head and hard, too.

And by the way: Si hay otros que hablan castellano y quisieran escribirme en el idioma, por favor ¡Hazlo! Esto lugar es el único donde grito fuerte en inglés.
 

D_Tintagel_Demondong

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"Y'all" should never ever be used as a singular. Ever. It would be as appropriate as using "they" or "them" as a third-person singular.

I use "they" as the singular indefinite pronoun in English, ie. "If a person eats too much, he will likely become overweight."

I'm not a fan of political correctness, but I feel that it's justified in this case.

Aside from, "y'all," there have been several proposals for an alternative to the masculine personal pronoun, "he."

Example 1:
"If a person eats too much, he or she will likely become overweight."
I find this clunky and verbose.

Example 2:
"If a person eats too much, s/he will likely become overweight."
"S/he" would work but it's already been claimed by transexuals and hermaphredites.

Example 3:
"If a person eats too much, he/she will likely become overweight."
Which should come first? "He" or "she"?

Example 4:
"If a person eats too much, she will likely become overweight."
Isn't this just as inequal?

Example 5:
"If a person eats too much, (s)he will likely become overweight."
This looks like the most awkard of the lot.

Example 6:
"If a person eats too much, he she will likely become overweight."
This is not grammatical.

If anyone has seen other alternatives then please let me know.

"They" has been used for centuries in this context in English as a gender-neutral singular pronoun. Although it doesn't specify a sex, the sex can often be obtained by the proper noun. I have read text books where "he" and "she" were used alternately. This seems like a good solution, but "they" is easier.

At least english doesn't have nouns with genders like many other languages. The French and Spanish don't even have a gender-neutral word for the plural third person!
 

ManlyBanisters

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If anyone has seen other alternatives then please let me know.
WTF is wrong with the neuter:

"If one eats too much, one will likely become overweight."

"They" has been used for centuries in this context in English as a gender-neutral singular pronoun. Although it doesn't specify a sex, the sex can often be obtained by the proper noun. I have read text books where "he" and "she" were used alternately. This seems like a good solution, but "they" is easier.

I don't think 'they' has been used for centuries as a single pronoun - I could be wrong there but I thought it was quite recent.

At least english doesn't have nouns with genders like many other languages. The French and Spanish don't even have a gender-neutral word for the plural third person!

Well - I can't speak for Spanish (though it is generally more inflected than French) but in French ils is used for masculine only and mixed gender groups (and even all female animal groups in an agricultural context, IME) - ils does not imply masculine in the same way English he and French il do. Ils is perfectly acceptable as neutral.

In fact he used to be perfect acceptable as neutral (in the type of example you used) where the gender of the subject is clearly not implicitly male. But then feminists got on their high horses about it as another bastion of male domination that everyone was by default assumed to be male - which is utter bollox of course... but there you go!
 

Not_Punny

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Did you know?
Loss of the sound of "r" after a vowel and before another consonant in the middle of a word is common in spoken English. This linguistic idiosyncrasy has given our language a few new words, including "cuss" from "curse," "bust" from "burst," and our featured word "passel" from "parcel." The spelling "passel" originated in the 15th century, but the word's use as a collective noun for an indefinite number is a 19th-century Americanism. It was common primarily in local-color writing before getting a boost in the 1940s, when it began appearing in popular weekly magazines such as Time, Newsweek, and the Saturday Review.

It is common knowledge that the "r" frequently escapes the English language, to reside in Spain. :biggrin1:
 

Not_Punny

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I use "they" as the singular indefinite pronoun in English, ie. "If a person eats too much, he will likely become overweight."

I'm not a fan of political correctness, but I feel that it's justified in this case.

Aside from, "y'all," there have been several proposals for an alternative to the masculine personal pronoun, "he."

Example 1:
"If a person eats too much, he or she will likely become overweight."
I find this clunky and verbose.

Example 2:
"If a person eats too much, s/he will likely become overweight."
"S/he" would work but it's already been claimed by transexuals and hermaphredites.

Example 3:
"If a person eats too much, he/she will likely become overweight."
Which should come first? "He" or "she"?

Example 4:
"If a person eats too much, she will likely become overweight."
Isn't this just as inequal?

Example 5:
"If a person eats too much, (s)he will likely become overweight."
This looks like the most awkard of the lot.

Example 6:
"If a person eats too much, he she will likely become overweight."
This is not grammatical.

If anyone has seen other alternatives then please let me know.

"They" has been used for centuries in this context in English as a gender-neutral singular pronoun. Although it doesn't specify a sex, the sex can often be obtained by the proper noun. I have read text books where "he" and "she" were used alternately. This seems like a good solution, but "they" is easier.

At least english doesn't have nouns with genders like many other languages. The French and Spanish don't even have a gender-neutral word for the plural third person!


Let me fix it for you:

"A person who eats too much will likely become overweight."

Most awkward pronouns are eliminated by clarifying the subject of the sentence.

(I write -- as well as design and illustrate -- for a living, although many of my posts here at LPSG are downright lazy.) :biggrin1:
 

Not_Punny

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Or perhaps,

Eating too much may cause obesity.


Or...

Obesity swallows people who eat too much.... :biggrin1::biggrin1:


There is no R in Spain.:wink:

Maybe it ran off without announcing itself? :rolleyes:

I lived in southern Spain briefly, when I was a teen, and I used to have great fun trying to roll my r's, Castillian style. A gentleman I knew there, by the name of (believe it or not) Roberto Rodriguez, was the "model" for all my faux-Castillian speak. :biggrin1:


GROAN!!! I'm so fucking slow today -- I just got it! LOL!!!