Amnesty for Illegal aliens????

[musclebutt2]

Contrary to what you might think about Lincoln, the Civil War was to keep the Union intact; ending slavery was a secondary benefit.


I second Madame Z's vitriol. The reason the US doesn't want to help Mexico and Latin America develop industrially/economically is simple, we don't want competition. Ever since the Spanish American war there has been a long history of American intervention in the region to make the governements politically unstable and screw with their economies to make them dependent on US markets. Also, the more these governments take out loans, especially from the "World Bank" it brings them further into debt and vunerable to US gov't pressure (AKA US corporate pressure). For example, many Carribbean economies became monocroppers and only raised bananas and pineapples for the benefit of the American Dole fruit corporation; it eventually destroyed their economy and land, etc. etc. etc....

 

[madame_zora]

Contrary to what you might think about Lincoln, the Civil War was to keep the Union intact; ending slavery was a secondary benefit.

True dat, Lincoln didn't really like black people all that much, sad to say.

 

[kalipygian]

I am not sure that it is entirely reasonable to object to people speaking spanish in a city whose full and correct name is 'el Pueblo de la Nuestra Senhora Reina de los Angeles'(Town of our lady, Queen of the Angels), in California Alta, which was when founded in the Vireanato de Nueva Espana (Viceroyalty of New Spain).

In the late 1840's the US in an unprovoked war of territorial expansion, invaded and militarily defeated Mexico, and forced cession of 52% of it's territory. This included all of the present states of California, Arizona, New Mexico, Texas, Utah and Nevada, Parts of Kansas, Oklahoma, Colorado and Wyoming.

Ideally, we should be moving in the direction of abolishing borders and restictions of people's movement, not building expensive walls. I think governments are over controlling in this matter.

Graduates of US high schools should be able to understand spanish (it is a beautiful language) There are plenty of opportunities and incentives for people in the US to learn to understand english.

Further, the Louisana territory, all or part of 16 states, the 'purchase' money went to Napoleon, he was not in actual possesion, it was and had been since the seven years war under spanish sovereignty. La Florida, (the name origonally refered to the continent, not just the peninsula) also part of the viceroyalty of New Spain, included all or part of six present states. There was once a Spanish Mission on the Potomac, where I live in Alaska, there are a few Spanish place names surviving from the 18thc.(Valdez, Cordova, Malaspina)

 

[SteveHd]

"Proper channels," previously mentioned, can only work when the border is secured. Until that's done there can be no permanent solution. Many Americans who are in the middle on this issue -- for instance me -- won't go along with amnesty/leniency when there are hoards coming across every day.

 

[D_N Flay Table]

I should learn spanish?
no. they should learn english.
If I moved to france, I would learn french.

 

[musclebutt2]

I should learn spanish?
no. they should learn english.
If I moved to france, I would learn french.

You should learn Spanish. Most of the world speaks more than one language anyway. Only Americans don't. I think the education system is changing tho what with globalization and all.

 

[D_N Flay Table]

¿Quién dice que yo me puse tengo un puño en el idioma ya?

Really, I grew up in LA, I have a pretty good grip on the language, but far from fluent.

 

[madame_zora]

"Proper channels," previously mentioned, can only work when the border is secured. Until that's done there can be no permanent solution. Many Americans who are in the middle on this issue -- for instance me -- won't go along with amnesty/leniency when there are hoards coming across every day.

Gee, then maybe the Mexicans should follow our lead and just kill us all, that's what we did.

Hey, what about if we just stopped acting like we had some "right" to steal from others, then refuse to share. How about we stop going to WAR, right now, to steal resources, then act like we are blameless and righteous? Stop being a chode. The "hordes coming across" are doing jobs you don't want to do for money you wouldn't work for. If they were legal, they wouldn't be causing the problems that people list as their objections, because they wouldn't have to avoid the law to do their goddmaned job and feed their families. Oh, I guess that just by nature of your birth YOU are superior and deserve to eat, but they don't.

YOU didn't make this country great, a bunch of IMMIGRANTS WITHOUT PAPERS did. Grow up.

 

[madame_zora]

Open immigration is a principle on which our country was founded! From the Declaration of Independence:

He has endeavoured to prevent the population of these States; for that purpose obstructing the Laws for Naturalization of Foreigners; refusing to pass others to encourage their migrations hither, and raising the conditions of new Appropriations of Lands.

It's not good enough to spout off about something you find "uncomfortable" without understanding even to a skeletal level what made America great. You idiots will lose everything for all of us because of your xenophobia and fear. You're really pissing away a great nation for us all, and I have a right to be angry about that.

Our forefathers were ultra-ULTRA liberal, for their time. They meant the Constitution as a good beginning, but laid the burden upon future generations to continue to grow, nay evolve it. It doesn't take a genius to understand that they were trying to break us away from the very kind of government that we have allowed ours to become, and they call us to revolution from the grave. If you don't understand that, you are not familiar with our own documents of government, and it is YOUR ignorance that will ruin what you ignorantly claim to love.

 

[rawbone8]

[...]
Our forefathers were ultra-ULTRA liberal, for their time. [...]

not to threadjack, but wonders does that include involuntary immigration?

 

[madame_zora]

Rawbone, that's exactly what I'm talking about when I say they laid the burden on future generations to evolve the government as it went on. They had a lot of brilliant ideas that were new and shocking at the time, but they were hardly perfect- and they KNEW it! That's part of the genius of the Consitution is that is leaves room for amendments so that our government can be a living entity that grows with the times and the peoples it serves.

We DID abolish slavery eventually, didn't we?

We DID pass women's suffrage eventually, didn't we?

There ARE truths that are self-evident, even Jesus preached about them. There's enough to go around, so share. Take care of the poor, it's just the right thing to do. Everyone wants and deserves equal treatment, until their individual behavior warrants that they lose it.

All these issues will eventually go the way that benefits humanity the most, which is to do good unto each other rather than ill. The only question that remains is how long we'll fight for our rights to be selfish and greedy before we just embarrass ourselves into compliance. I'm embarrassed now, but it will take stupid people much longer. I'll be laughing at them, and crying about the pain they've caused until they stop being greedy and selfish, about all the issues. Fuckers.

 

[Pecker]

Harry Reid is a master of Newspeak: 12 million undocumented Americans.

 

[Matthew]

I tink the problem with MOST of the illegal aliens is that they have no interest in becoming "American"

-They have no interest in learning the language, culture, or contributing at all the society as we know it in america.

Ugh ... can't believe you actually buy that. In my opinion, that's just a widely-thrown about stereotype which lets white people feel justified for sneering and supporting draconian anti-immigrant policies. Of course there are lazy and dishonest people in every group, but one restaurant hostess says nothing about the aspirations of an enormous and diverse group of people.

The immigrants I know, which are HUNDREDS due to my work, OVERWHELMINGLY want to learn English, want to improve their lives and get better jobs, want to normalize their status here and stop living in fear and at the mercy of employers who take advantage of them because they can. These folks want to be a full part of everything. And you CAN'T be serious that you think immigrants, legal and illegal, don't contribute to this society or culture. Come up to SF/Oakland/San Jose and I will show you around the Bay, show you how the economy of the entire metro area would collapse without them, and show you how the cultural contributions from all over the world make our cities wonderful places to live -- as opposed to the strange misperception that they are hurting the area somehow.

I've already said my piece earlier in this thread (y'all don't hear me tho). On a side note, I especially love when NAFTA supporters argue for tightening the borders against illegal immigrants: Evidently they think corporations should be free to cross borders to find the most profitable situation for themselves, but the laborers who make those profits must be tightly restricted ...

 

[SteveHd]

Stop being a chode.

Nice insult. Since you haven't noticed: I don't do insults.

If they were legal, they wouldn't be causing the problems that people list as their objections, because they wouldn't have to avoid the law to do their goddmaned job and feed their families.

I don't object to finding ways for them to become legal. My point was that people "in the middle" aren't going to entertain viable solutions until border mess is fixed. You missed my point. You've done that before.

Oh, I guess that just by nature of your birth YOU are superior and deserve to eat, but they don't.

Did I suggest that?

YOU didn't make this country great, a bunch of IMMIGRANTS WITHOUT PAPERS did.

I didn't but what about FDR? Was he an immigrant without papers?

Grow up.

Another insult?

 

[Christiaan]

Only between member nations of the European Union, of course. Non-EU-member Switzerland is only 100 miles from my front door, for example, and freedom of entry/residence certainly wouldn't apply.

Yes, of course, I'm sorry not to have mentioned that. For us, everyone knows I refer to the EU, but on the other side of the pond not everyone knows.

I am mystified why Americans are so pissed off that another language is spoken. I guess here in Europe, we are used to hearing and at least being able to converse in languages of neighbouring tribes. I don't thought that besides Nederlands, I csan also speak, Duits (German), French, Spans (Spanish), Portugues (is that spelt right?), English and Italian. This isn't everyone's language but always you can find at least one language in common.

I was in Czech Republic and of course I know the shop keeper doesn't speak Nederlands, but we both spoke Duits (German) and everything is fine.

Also, all though maybe 8 or 9 months in Texel just across from Den Helder it is a favouite place for Germans to holiday with their caravans. Almost all places you hear German spoken on Texel, but it does bother anyone.

There are so many things which deserve to be pissed off about that this seems to me to come far down the list. Feeding the poor, caring for the sick, taking care especially for one's parents, helping neighbours, etc., all seem more important. :smile:

 

[LambHair McNeil]

When the Senate votes 51-46 (defeating the Cornyn Amend.) to grant legal status, and thus eventual citizenship, for:

• members of terrorist-related organizations
• known gang members
• rapists
• child molesters
• alien smugglers who use firearms
• and felony drunk drivers
• anyone at all considered a danger to society

...themoral relativists rocking the room don't have to worry that the US is becoming too judgmental. Indeed, while it's a totally different thread, I'd say the chap that has the one about America going down the toilet has captured the mojo of this mofo of a bill...

 

[madame_zora]

Quote:
madame_zora
Stop being a chode.

Nice insult. Since you haven't noticed: I don't do insults.

That's what you think, I'm sure. A lot of people would agree with you too- I'm not one of them.

Quote:
If they were legal, they wouldn't be causing the problems that people list as their objections, because they wouldn't have to avoid the law to do their goddmaned job and feed their families.


I don't object to finding ways for them to become legal. My point was that people "in the middle" aren't going to entertain viable solutions until border mess is fixed. You missed my point. You've done that before.

No, I got your point- I was disagreeing with the concept, not just the point. First, let me explain, I am not trying to "win over" anyone to my point of view. There are nicer people than me who can use that method, and I agree that it is far more effective as far as getting things done. However, before those nicer people will be moved to start the massaging of egos and negotiating that they are so good at, someone has to come along and make a big stink about it. I'm the guy dumping tea in the ocean so that smarter people than me can write the Constitution. I don't give a wet shit about anyone's feelings, it's not my "job", as I see it. I am standing outside with a bullhorn shouting "BULLSHIT! BULLSHIT! BULLSHIT!". It's unbecomming for a lady and I know it, but it still needs to be done. I care about the Constitution and the system of government set in place. We only have two options- reform ourselves or lose our position of "gentle giant" in the world and earn the wrath of those who will show us, rather than tell us how intolerable our behavior is.

Yeah, you want to make a system of legal entry for immigrants now- glad that wasn't the case when YOUR family immigrated though, eh?

Quote:
Oh, I guess that just by nature of your birth YOU are superior and deserve to eat, but they don't.


Did I suggest that?

You most certainly did! Why do you think I am so incensed? Perhaps you are incapable of following your words to their obvious conclusions, but I am not. Okay, just for fun, tell me your view, why DO we have the right to make laws about who can enter the country we stole from the native Americans?

Quote:
YOU didn't make this country great, a bunch of IMMIGRANTS WITHOUT PAPERS did.


I didn't but what about FDR? Was he an immigrant without papers?

Well, someone in his family was! Do you understand simple concepts, or do I have to explain every detail? Everyone in this country is the decendant of an immigrant, or two to be more exact. Oh, there is an exception- ME! am the firstborn child of an immigrant with papers- I might be the most "legitimate" person here.:tongue:

No, seriously- it's the concept that "we" are somehow exempt from the standards we apply to others that I find so obnoxious.

Quote:
Grow up.


Another insult?

Yes. Your thinking is too two-dimensional. So is most of America's. If we don't "grow up", and quickly, we stand to lose a whole lot. Don't worry about Meixcans, worry about taking care of your family and feeding a couple homeless people and doing some good deeds in your community. If we aren't angry at the less fortunate, we can see them as human beings that have the same dreams for good things that we all have. If we stop being selfish and self-centered, we *might* get to the point where we even want them to succeed as much as we want that for ourselves.

To show what a utopian fuck I really am, I believe we *might* even be willing to help them, rather than legislate against them. Then again, I live in a fantasy world where people actually mean the things they say. I'm doomed, right?

 

[SteveHd]

I am mystified why Americans are so pissed off that another language is spoken. I guess here in Europe, we are used to hearing and at least being able to converse in languages of neighbouring tribes. I don't thought that besides Nederlands, I csan also speak, Duits (German), French, Spans (Spanish), Portugues (is that spelt right?), English and Italian. This isn't everyone's language but always you can find at least one language in common.

One reason is: Many Mexicans only speak one language and many Americans only speak one language and thus they can't speak to each other in the manner you just described in your experiences. Someday I'd like to do my part to help by learning to speak Spanish. But I might be too old to learn a new language.:redface:

 

[Freddie53]

Originally Posted by DJG

I should learn spanish?
no. they should learn english.
If I moved to france, I would learn french.

You should learn Spanish. Most of the world speaks more than one language anyway. Only Americans don't. I think the education system is changing tho what with globalization and all.

I have no problem with people learning Spanish. It is required at our local high school to take two years of Spanish for graduation.

I also think it is incumbant on the immigrants to learn English and the government should be providing ways for people to learn English and American culture.

No one language is superior culturally to another as far as assigning moral values. But a society really needs at least one language that all can converse in. There can be two, but it is critical in the long run that all people can communicate with each other. Without communication, there is a breeding ground for trouble, misunderstanindg, mistrust. etc.

 

[madame_zora]

Yes, of course, I'm sorry not to have mentioned that. For us, everyone knows I refer to the EU, but on the other side of the pond not everyone knows.

I am mystified why Americans are so pissed off that another language is spoken. I guess here in Europe, we are used to hearing and at least being able to converse in languages of neighbouring tribes. I don't thought that besides Nederlands, I csan also speak, Duits (German), French, Spans (Spanish), Portugues (is that spelt right?), English and Italian. This isn't everyone's language but always you can find at least one language in common.

I was in Czech Republic and of course I know the shop keeper doesn't speak Nederlands, but we both spoke Duits (German) and everything is fine.

Also, all though maybe 8 or 9 months in Texel just across from Den Helder it is a favouite place for Germans to holiday with their caravans. Almost all places you hear German spoken on Texel, but it does bother anyone.

There are so many things which deserve to be pissed off about that this seems to me to come far down the list. Feeding the poor, caring for the sick, taking care especially for one's parents, helping neighbours, etc., all seem more important. :smile:

What is at work here is the American ego. We're told from little on that we're the "best" country, and by extension, the "best" people. It's actually hard to escape, if not impossible. We don't understand that Europe, which has been "developed" for centuries longer, has already gone through all of the growing pains that we are going through now. We don't understand our infancy status.

We don't think we should have to learn another language, and we are offended by the idea that other people don't bow to us with ease.

When I was in Spain, it was easy to get around speaking English, but when I spoke even in my broken Spanish, people bent over backward to help me learn more. If I said "Como se dice?", everyone I encountered was as helpful as possible, and genuinely appreciated my interest and efforts. Not so here- people make fun of foreigners if they even have an accent, sure sounds like immaturity to me.

I was able to pass easily into Morocco with just my passport- I didn't need immigration papers. I don't mind showing my passport, if I commit a crime there, they have a right to know who the fuck I am, but I was not harrassed or made to feel unwelcome by their government.

Most of the people I met both in Spain and Morrocco were multi-lingual, and I credit that fact to a large degree with why you have a more civilised way of living. Perhaps we'll be like Great Britian after they finally got the message that their colonisations of other nations were just not going to be tolerated any longer, and take our place among the civilised nations. We're certainly not being very civilised now.