An impossible, perhaps even dangerous standard

D_Tim McGnaw

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you can't starve yourself and maintain muscle mass. the bottom line is if you lear to exercise hit the weights especially and lear to eat right you may not be perfect but you can make remarkable changes in your body. but it take time and effort. everyone wants the magic pill. so the lazy and fat say well thats not attainable. I love it when I hear well I don't look bad for my age and compare themselves to other lazy people. get off your ass and see what you can do. but you have to be tough it isn't easy or happen over night. thats why most people look like crap. it's funny we always have time time to play on the computer or wathc our favorite tv show but when it comes to exercise forget it.



I'm sorry but have you read this thread? I'll say this again so you're absolutely clear, being healthy and getting the right amount of exercise are exactly what we should all be trying to aim for. I am not contesting that, especially since I work out and try to eat well myself.


This thread is about a current fashion in male appearance standards which promotes extreme leaness, not healthy musculature, and which is encouraging men to do dangerous things in order to conform to the current standard.

Are you even slightly aware of how irresponsible your post is? There could be a young man reading this thread right now, who instead of being encouraged to look carefully at his training goals and habits is being told (by you) that only fat and lazy people would worry about over exercising. You're advice is keep exercising more and more, not "be careful you're training yourself properly and eating lots of healthy foods".

By promoting the idea that somehow it's impossible to exercise too much you encourage young men who already have bad habits caused by social and personal pressures who will now feel confirmed in the behaviours which may be destroying their health and well-being.

I meet young men all the time, who in an attempt to look extremely lean work out so much their bodies are doing the work of a old time Rail-road worker, but who "live" on protein shakes, fat burners, vitamin and herbal supplements and chicken breasts. They look like famine victims with extremely well defined abs. Most of them are damaging their internal organs and wearing their bodies out because they feel compelled to look a certain way, because of a fairly recent media imposed fashion for the ultra skinny and ultra defined male physique.

Please when you're trying to give otherwise good advice that people should be healthy and get the right amount of exercise remember that flinging about terms like "lazy" "fat" etc. may have effects on people you perhaps did not expect.
 
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nimble

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Weather dangerous or not. The discusion you are having about eccesive weight compulsion is toned in a preaching manner. If your concern is to support those with these low weight concerns then the discusion should focus around the why people who actually have these weight fixations are in this position. Allow their answeres to begin the conversation and address their concerns as apposed to imposing your expectations of what people need to be.
 

D_Tim McGnaw

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Weather dangerous or not. The discusion you are having about eccesive weight compulsion is toned in a preaching manner. If your concern is to support those with these low weight concerns then the discusion should focus around the why people who actually have these weight fixations are in this position. Allow their answeres to begin the conversation and address their concerns as apposed to imposing your expectations of what people need to be.


Actually I'm at a loss to know how you came to that conclusion, I'm trying very hard to keep the discussion OT, but the thread keeps getting bombed by posters saying "Only fat and lazy people complain about too much training."

I don't know where I've imposed my expectations on anyone, but if you can point an instance out to me I'll be glad of it. Really I was trying to get to the bottom of why this issue is on the rise and wondering if peopled had any ideas about it. What are your ideas?
 

D_Tim McGnaw

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People keep missing the point. Surprise!

I know Lexie, what is this place like? :tongue:

The weird thing is how any discussion of issues to do with weight and health and fitness seems to bring out the Fat-ism in some people. There's no doubt that in some developed world countries there is a serious problem in the growth in obesity, and doubtless that needs some kind of general social change to be able to combat it.

But there's also a growing problem at the other end of the food-behaviour disorder spectrum, and in some people's rush to condemn fatness as though it were a kind of crime against nature many seem to forget that they may be compounding problems faced by people suffering with other kinds of disorder. I think that the focus on obesity in some countries is blinding people to the effects of public discourse on other people who do not suffer with obesity but who nonetheless have serious problems with food/over exercising issues.


Ultimately I wanted this to be a discussion about how or indeed if people felt that current social and cultural changes are putting excessive pressures on some young men to do dangerous things to themselves in order to conform to the latest fashionable standard of male beauty. Let's hope that can resume.
 

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Surely we are all aware that there is a widespread epidemic of obesity that includes the U.S. and many other countries. Although it would be unreasonable to expect most people to look like champion athletes, surely it would be reasonable to expect people to strive to avoid obesity.

Although there are a few people to are distressed by their inability to meet impossible standards of thinness, there are far more people who are greatly overweight. The point that many of us are making is that large numbers of people have, because of a lack of discipline, permitted themselves to become so heavy that both their physical appearance and health are being adversely affected.

Another problem is that some people on limited incomes lack access to full-size supermarkets where they can buy healthful foods and, as a result, have little choice but to eat unhealthful foods which fill their bellies. Also, when people have to work long hours to support their families, they lack time to prepare healthful meals at home and end up buying unhealthful meals at fast-food restaurants. Part of the fault lies with fast-food restaurants which would offer more healthful choices but have chosen not to.
 

D_Tim McGnaw

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Surely we are all aware that there is a widespread epidemic of obesity that includes the U.S. and many other countries. Although it would be unreasonable to expect most people to look like champion athletes, surely it would be reasonable to expect people to strive to avoid obesity.

Although there are a few people to are distressed by their inability to meet impossible standards of thinness, there are far more people who are greatly overweight. The point that many of us are making is that large numbers of people have, because of a lack of discipline, permitted themselves to become so heavy that both their physical appearance and health are being adversely affected.

Another problem is that some people on limited incomes lack access to full-size supermarkets where they can buy healthful foods and, as a result, have little choice but to eat unhealthful foods which fill their bellies. Also, when people have to work long hours to support their families, they lack time to prepare healthful meals at home and end up buying unhealthful meals at fast-food restaurants. Part of the fault lies with fast-food restaurants which would offer more healthful choices but have chosen not to.



OK lets be clear here, the obesity epidemic your referring to, is not in fact widespread beyond a handful of developed world countries, and while it is of vital importance that it be dealt with and discussed this thread of all threads is not the thread to be treating eating disorders at the other end of the spectrum as unimportant or as irrelevant.

If you want to go a bitch about how you think fat people are disgusting/lazy/undisciplined/a drain on society/whatever, go and do it in one of the numerous threads about how people find overweight people gross.

You really need to be a little bit more aware of the effect of your words. There are millions of people who suffer with variants of anorexia and bulimia and many many of them die from starvation and general illness brought on by malnutrition, you may think that's irrelevant, I don't.


ONCE AGAIN IN CASE YOU HAVE PROBLEMS READING- HEALTHY LEVELS OF EXERCISE AND PLENTY OF HEALTHY FOOD= GOOD, NO ONE LEAST OF ALL ME IS SAYING ANYTHING ELSE.


Edit: Seriously the more I read your post, sanctimonious and self righteous as it is, the less I feel able to discuss this issue with you. You think it is in anyway appropriate in a discussion about starvation eating disorders to be ranting about the evils of fatness and the virtues of weight loss? You think it's completely acceptable to write of the anguish and suffering of millions of people around the world (and an estimated 5 million in the US alone http://resources.metapress.com/pdf-preview.axd?code=n305504970661760&size=largest ) as the distress of "a few people" ?

Self awareness at all?
 
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alx

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hilaire, your first post is confusing. You have links of healthy lean guys, and links of guys that are skinny ie just skin and bone.

You cannot put these into the same category.

Are you saying that very lean guys ie, pretty much just muscle and bone, with very little amounts of fat are unhealthy?
If so I do not understand why you have come to this conclusion, In order to gain this kind of muscle you need surplus nutrients.

These lean guys are healthy, the skinny skin and bone guys are NOT.

However I agree with the body dismorphia issue, becoming this lean would make you see yourself in a certain way.

Im sure many guys with this physique see themselves as slender, yet focus heavily on the fact that they have this <10 percent fat and see themselves as fat ultimately.
 
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thetramp

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OK lets be clear here, the obesity epidemic your referring to, is not in fact widespread beyond a handful of developed world countries, and while it is of vital importance that it be dealt with and discussed this thread of all threads is not the thread to be treating eating disorders at the other end of the spectrum as unimportant or as irrelevant.
You are right it can hardly be called a handful. Almost all developed countries have to worry about it. If you go by the WHO almost 5 % of world population is living with obesity. Which means a BMI over 30.
In many developed countries the percentage is in double digits, in germany the latest number is 17 for men and 19 for women. The CDC estimates that about every third person in the USA has this medical condition.
The WHO calls it pandemic. The common resulting medical conditions like high blood pressure and diabetes are increasing at an alarming rate, especially among kids. This is probably the biggest threat to health mankind knows right now. But you are right that it does not mean that the other end of the eating disorders is less dangerous, it just is not as widespread, but even if there are fife times more people with obesity than underweight, that does not mean we should be casual about these millions of people.

In that aspect i understand you pointing out certain posts here, but if you really want to discuss this issue, why don't you pick up on those posts that actually contributed explanatory model why this issue is on the rise.
 

D_Tim McGnaw

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hilaire, your first post is confusing. You have links of healthy lean guys, and links of guys that are skinny ie just skin and bone.

You cannot put these into the same category.

Are you saying that very lean guys ie, pretty much just muscle and bone, with very little amounts of fat are unhealthy?

I'm using these pictures to illustrate the kinds of images which many people will feel pressured by. As I said in the OP I have no idea if any of the guys in those photos are healthy or not, likely some (maybe all for all I know) of them are perfectly healthy. That's not really the issue.

The point is that images of lean men may be provoking ordinary guys whose bodies maybe less capable of similar a kind of leaness and who may be susceptible to eating disorders to attempt to do things which are unhealthy.

Not everyone is actually healthily capable of being as lean as many of the models who are currently fashionable. Even if he's as fit as a butcher's dog a guy may still have genetically inherited body fat percentages which will require him to do excessive things if he wishes to reach the currently fashionable extra-lean standard.

It's all there in the OP. The photos aren't supposed to be illustrative of healthy looking or unhealthy looking guys.



However I agree with the body dismorphia issue, becoming his lean would make you see yourself in a certain way.

Im sure many guys with this physique see themselves as slender, yet focus heavily on the fact that they have this <10 perent fat and see themselves as fat ultimately.


As I say I'm not sure if the men in those pics are healthy or not, so I can't really say. :wink:

I do know that I've met men in real life who in order to be as lean as some of the guys in those pics have been and are doing unhealthy things, because no matter how hard they tried by healthy means they couldn't get below 5% body fat.

That many eating disorders are being shown to be behaviours which are in part self taught, the path to serious illness can be started on by something as simple as replacing real foods with protein bars in an attempt to be below 5% body fat when even at your fittest you were only really supposed to be 6% because that's the way your body was made, if it was to function healthily.
 
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D_Tim McGnaw

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You are right it can hardly be called a handful. Almost all developed countries have to worry about it. If you go by the WHO almost 5 % of world population is living with obesity. Which means a BMI over 30.
In many developed countries the percentage is in double digits, in germany the latest number is 17 for men and 19 for women. The CDC estimates that about every third person in the USA has this medical condition.
The WHO calls it pandemic. The common resulting medical conditions like high blood pressure and diabetes are increasing at an alarming rate, especially among kids. This is probably the biggest threat to health mankind knows right now. But you are right that it does not mean that the other end of the eating disorders is less dangerous, it just is not as widespread, but even if there are fife times more people with obesity than underweight, that does not mean we should be casual about these millions of people.

In that aspect i understand you pointing out certain posts here, but if you really want to discuss this issue, why don't you pick up on those posts that actually contributed explanatory model why this issue is on the rise.


Because having raised the issue of male anorexia and other starvation eating disorders in men in a thread like this it becomes my responsibility to make sure that people don't use this thread to reinforce ideas in some vulnerable person's mind about how evil fat is and how one can never loose enough weight.

Again, please if you want to discuss obesity then by all means start your own thread about it, because the messages which that discussion frequently brings up can often be part of the problem facing people with anorexia.

I have been addressing the posts which deal with the OP, but I have to also deal with the posts which might otherwise be quite damaging to some people's well-being too, no?
 

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Because having raised the issue of male anorexia and other starvation eating disorders in men in a thread like this it becomes my responsibility to make sure that people don't use this thread to reinforce ideas in some vulnerable person's mind about how evil fat is and how one can never loose enough weight.

Again, please if you want to discuss obesity then by all means start your own thread about it, because the messages which that discussion frequently brings up can often be part of the problem facing people with anorexia.

I have been addressing the posts which deal with the OP, but I have to also deal with the posts which might otherwise be quite damaging to some people's well-being too, no?

only to a certain degree, but you should not go overboard with it, because that just moves the topic away from the intended issue towards just pointing out what is not suitable here. I would definitely advise you to pay more attention to the productive posts.

And i do think there are valid arguments that separating anorexia and obesity is not that good of an idea because there might be the same factors involved as reasons of these eating disorders.
 

D_Tim McGnaw

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only to a certain degree, but you should not go overboard with it, because that just moves the topic away from the intended issue towards just pointing out what is not suitable here. I would definitely advise you to pay more attention to the productive posts.

And i do think there are valid arguments that separating anorexia and obesity is not that good of an idea because there might be the same factors involved as reasons of these eating disorders.


OK firstly you chaps are all perfectly capable of carrying on a conversation with one another even if I am too busy getting all outraged an up on my high horse, and secondly, I'll take you're advice, but I'll also continue to make it clear that certain kinds of messages are probably not all that helpful too.

I agree with you about the full spectrum of eating disorders being a perfectly legitimate discussion in this context if one is viewing it from a psychological perspective, but thus far that kind of point has not been raised. I'll happily get in to that discussion if it is.
 

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I agree with you about the full spectrum of eating disorders being a perfectly legitimate discussion in this context if one is viewing it from a psychological perspective, but thus far that kind of point has not been raised. I'll happily get in to that discussion if it is.

I have raised that point already in this thread, and provided an idea of why this issue is on the rise.
 

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Hilaire,

Great post and thread, even if it has gotten off topic at times.

I'm a fine arts model and am curious if you ever provide guidance to some of these abnormally skinny guys about their current 'look'? I know that artists like to use a wider variety of models, but you might be of service to these guys if you told them that you've got probably too many skinny guys already in the queue and that you'd prefer to have models that illustrate a range of body types that aren't so guant. Perhaps an occassional nudge like this to these guys would help them realize that not everyone WANTS what they see on in the media. Show them some great artwork (historic or current) which shows male bodies in a more natural range of physiques and sizes to point out that male beauty is a continueum and not an individual "ideal."

I am in the same boat as Bbucko. I do not work out except during my posing (I do a larger percentage of tension poses in the poses that are 15 minutes or less). While I am happy with my current look, I was also pretty happy with my old body & look (graced with more cushioning and smooth, contouring body fat than I have now).
 

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I see guys like that at the fitness club..with bodies all out of proportion..endomorphism gone rampant..big bulging muscles held up by muscular chicken legs ..trying to emulate cartoon characters


I know exactly what you're saying. You see these men with big arms and pecs and cartoonish, chicken legs. It's so common. And it looks so silly.

Give us some real natural beef, et "ce"* en proportion (big arms, legs and dick):biggrin1:

*(pardon my French)
 

D_Tim McGnaw

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I have raised that point already in this thread, and provided an idea of why this issue is on the rise.

I presume you mean you raised this issue in the post quoted below?




The more i think about it, the more i think it is not so much the ideal body that has changed, it is much rather the availability of that.

Whenever we look at statues or pictures of what people thought was the ideal male body we will see a muscular yet lean man. We find that in early cave paintings, in the remains of the early high cultures, no matter at what part of the world we look (actually i don't know about the far east, but for the early high cultures in europe it is true, as it is for old egypt. And it has not changed so much. If we look what shaped the idea of the ideal body of the western world after the middle ages, we look at Da Vinci's Vitruvian Man and Michelangelo's David. There are of course many more, but i thought i name these because everyone has seen them. IS that standard really so much different from ours today?

Or is it just the availability of that standard that has these consequences. Or at least the illusion of it. And by that i do not only mean the constant confrontation with the ideal through tv and internet where models look like that, but the fact that whenever you turn on the tv you get told that you can look like that if you only work 5 minutes a day if you get that very special device, that every time you walk through the grocery store you see ads that tell you you can look like that if you only would eat their delicious and expensive products. That every time you walk down the street you see a gym and they have a sign telling you that you could look like that standard if you would only take their help. At the same time we are surrounded by everything unhealthy, Stress and laziness make people take a car for any distance and if it is only a thousand foot, the way we work has changed too, more and more we sit still behind a keyboard and screen than being physical active. Also has the classical family changed, for many people there is no wife that is purely a homemaker anymore, and i am certainly glad about that, but it means that the time for cooking has decreased and the food that is cheap and fast available is usually rather unhealthy.
So while the the average lifestyle has become more unhealthy, and makes it harder to achieve a physical standard that is presented to us, we still can not but be confronted with the illusion of the reachability. And there is no scruple for businesses to take advantage of the insecurity of men if there is money in it, keeping that illusion up.
Which leads to millions of failures, unfortunately humans don't react well to failures, and that i think is a big part of the reason why western cultures have trouble with eating disorders, men and women, obesity and underweight.




The first part is interesting in that you posit the existence of a fixed cultural standard of male beauty, the problem is that this standard has in fact been adapted and changed with cultural trends.

The differences between the Vitruvian or Classical archetypes of the male form and formal imagery from ancient Egypt and the Near east are striking, indeed different ideals have existed around the world at various periods in history, and when viewing images of the past it is always worth remembering that not only are we looking at an ideal we are looking at an ideal arrived at through an observation of the world as it was at the time of the ideal's creation. Therefore images of gods in the ancient world express physical substantiality, power, presence and eternity, images of Kings express power, and energy and physical prowess and warlike traits, images of priests, philosophers, artisans, peasants, slaves etc are all idealised also but in a different way.

Overall I do agree though that particularly in men physical ideals have been more stable than those applied to the appearance of women which have undergone fairly radical changes at different periods in history.


I agree that failure or feelings of inadequacy caused by the experience either of actual failure or perceived failure have a potent effect on people. No doubt these feelings provoke a vast array of human behaviour, some of them perfectly useful and some of them self destructive.

There's every reason to think, indeed the best opinions seem to confirm, that feelings of failure related to personal appearance (especially a prolonged one experience of them) can be the spur to a variety of self destructive habits. Being excessively self critical, being equally critical of the appearance of others, developing food phobias, and unhealthy eating habits (such as binging and purging) or a sense of shame related to food and eating in general which can cause both over eating and under eating. This sense of shame, about food and personal appearance, can be so intense that it causes depression and a variety of knock on mental illnesses and conditions.

That different people react to the same kinds of pressures in different ways in evidenced by the variety of behaviours and conditions which result from these diverse reactions. That they might all be prevented if the root cause were somehow eliminated seem axiomatic, but is not so simple in practice. This means that this spectrum of conditions and behaviours need ultimately to be treated in similar ways when they are similar in nature, but in different ways when they are different in nature, even if the root cause is as we have seen the same.

Certainly the obese compulsive eater and the anorexic compulsive starver share a large amount in common in terms of the cause, nature and psychological mechanics of their respective conditions and it all reflects deeper human behavioural imperatives programmed by evolutionary pressures.
 
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D_Tim McGnaw

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Hilaire,

Great post and thread, even if it has gotten off topic at times.

I'm a fine arts model and am curious if you ever provide guidance to some of these abnormally skinny guys about their current 'look'? I know that artists like to use a wider variety of models, but you might be of service to these guys if you told them that you've got probably too many skinny guys already in the queue and that you'd prefer to have models that illustrate a range of body types that aren't so guant. Perhaps an occassional nudge like this to these guys would help them realize that not everyone WANTS what they see on in the media. Show them some great artwork (historic or current) which shows male bodies in a more natural range of physiques and sizes to point out that male beauty is a continueum and not an individual "ideal."

I am in the same boat as Bbucko. I do not work out except during my posing (I do a larger percentage of tension poses in the poses that are 15 minutes or less). While I am happy with my current look, I was also pretty happy with my old body & look (graced with more cushioning and smooth, contouring body fat than I have now).



When I was a model scout I got in to trouble a fair bit for asking some of the guys I scouted how they ate and what they did for exercise, in an attempt to be sure they were eating healthy and not overdoing things. My bosses told me that what the company didn't know they couldn't be sued for.

As an artist I have on occasion suggested that a guy would get more work if he allowed himself to look more naturally himself, and have had the opportunity to point out just what you describe, that male beauty is a continuum. If I have had to not continue to employ a guy because I was dissatisfied with his appearance somehow the problem is magnified, so I have had to be incredibly diplomatic indeed, mostly I would tend not to mention the real reason why I'll not be painting them anymore.

The problem is that it can be a very sensitive issue to take a direct approach to without being any kind of expert in anything, and I do find myself feeling inhibited from being too overt in my advice since I know that many of my models are also fashion and commercial models who will be getting strong messages to the contrary.
 
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FRE

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OK lets be clear here, the obesity epidemic your referring to, is not in fact widespread beyond a handful of developed world countries, and while it is of vital importance that it be dealt with and discussed this thread of all threads is not the thread to be treating eating disorders at the other end of the spectrum as unimportant or as irrelevant.

If you want to go a bitch about how you think fat people are disgusting/lazy/undisciplined/a drain on society/whatever, go and do it in one of the numerous threads about how people find overweight people gross.

You really need to be a little bit more aware of the effect of your words. There are millions of people who suffer with variants of anorexia and bulimia and many many of them die from starvation and general illness brought on by malnutrition, you may think that's irrelevant, I don't.


ONCE AGAIN IN CASE YOU HAVE PROBLEMS READING- HEALTHY LEVELS OF EXERCISE AND PLENTY OF HEALTHY FOOD= GOOD, NO ONE LEAST OF ALL ME IS SAYING ANYTHING ELSE.


Edit: Seriously the more I read your post, sanctimonious and self righteous as it is, the less I feel able to discuss this issue with you. You think it is in anyway appropriate in a discussion about starvation eating disorders to be ranting about the evils of fatness and the virtues of weight loss? You think it's completely acceptable to write of the anguish and suffering of millions of people around the world (and an estimated 5 million in the US alone http://resources.metapress.com/pdf-preview.axd?code=n305504970661760&size=largest ) as the distress of "a few people" ?

Self awareness at all?

First of all, the obesity epidemic is NOT limited to “a handful of developed world countries.” I lived in Fiji from 1994 to 2004. Fiji is NOT a developed country but, because of changes in eating habits, Fiji has developed an epidemic of obesity resulting in serious health consequences. So has Tonga and several other poor Pacific Island countries, and these countries are attempting to deal with the problem. Nauru, a tiny Pacific Island country, has a type 2 diabetes rate of 40% because of obesity. If you doubt that, follow the following link and do searches on “diabetes” and “obesity.” Nauru - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia However, the case of Nauru is slightly different because their extreme problems resulted from easy wealth.

Also, please point out where I stated that obese people are disgusting. The fact is that some of them are lazy and undisciplined, but I never stated that ALL of them are and I never used the word “disgusting.” Moreover, I clearly and explicitly stated that many poor people lack adequate access to healthful food, and that does not imply laziness.

Of course it is not irrelevant that many people suffer from anorexia and bulimia, and I never said that it is. However, the plain fact is that obesity is causing more health problems than anorexia and bulimia are.

I suppose that I could accuse you of ignoring the problems caused by obesity and saying that people should make no effort to keep their weight under control, but I shall refrain from doing do. But pointing out the problems of anorexia and bulimia and ignoring the problems of obesity would surely result in more obesity. People should be encouraged to keep their weight under control and to be physically fit, but that does not mean that they should go to unrealistic extremes.

Certainly some people have, to their detriment, yielded to pressure to conform to impossible standards of physical appearance, but balance requires also considering the problems resulting from obesity.

You are entirely too quick to attack.