<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(LuckyLuke @ Nov 2 2005, 06:19 PM) [post=357718]Quoted post[/post]</div><div class='quotemain'>
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Freddie53 @ Nov 2 2005, 05:25 PM) [post=357682]Quoted post[/post]</div><div class='quotemain'>
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Hey, I'm just trying to clarify what I understood to be some major 'errors' in asserting various 'facts' about Classical Greece and Rome - and Rennaissance Italy. I happen to have studied history fairly heavily, particularly concentrating on these two periods. The fact that I'm gay means I've given a bit of extra attention to the subject of sexuality and male penises when I'm studying history.
As for the point about 'beardlessness', Alexander the Great started the trend of well born men shaving. That trend, while not dominant in Rome, was a powerful trend. The practice disappeared during the Dark Ages, but came back 'in style' with the Rennaissance - which began in Italy some 150 years before Michelangelo started his artwork. Shaving went out of style again during the 19th century conservative reactionary period (i.e Victorians), but that was brief as the 20th century brought back the clean-shaved look for males.
On this basis, the absence of facial hair on the statue cannot be construed directly as evidence of the age of depiction. As far as I know, the statue depicts David at the age in which he slew Goliath. That would suggest an age of a young warrior (17-21), not a young teen. And the musculature development and proportional height very much suggests that David was in his physical prime - he certainly looks 19-21 to me.
As for the 'unendowed model' theory, I think that ignores the whole classical artistic convention of depicting all adult males with exactly the same (modest) size penis. If nothing else, Michelangelo was a master of classical inspiration in all things artistic.
Like I said, I'm not looking to really argue about the issue. I just happen to know a lot about ancient Greece and Rome and Rennaissance Italy so I figured I'd offer my most considered opinion on the topic.
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Luke,
That is what is good about good discussions. Quite often we all learn something and in the end we end up with the same basic understanding. And thank you very much for your information about the history of shaving in the Greco-Roman world and through European history.
Your point that this is at the time that David slew Goliath. And I agree with you completely. So our concepts come a lot from our background. In my case in Sunday School, David was portrayed as a young boy that slew the great giant. So in my mind that would be a boy in early to middle teens. And in the US 18 year olds form the background of our army. David was too young to fight in the regular army.
Still, we know from professional football and wrestling that an 18 year old male does not have the physical strength that he will have at age 25. And puberty is not the same for all. Some start early and some actually don't start until age 16. We know nothing about any of that in the real story of David.
So that brings us to the Michelangelo's statue of David which of course comes from Michelangelo's mind. David himself I'm sure didn't shave. But this is not the historic David, but Michaelangelo's concept of David which is Renaissance.
You are probably right about the penis size. From my background I just assumed that it was a teen David who may have not reached his full penis size. And from what I have read some guys (rare) still have penis growth past age 18. And we don't know about male puberty norms back in those days either.
I have really appreciated your comments to this and I have learned a lot.
I now believe that the real David was somewhere past 14 but not yet 18. But the real guy that posed for this statue was probably somewhere between ages 16 and 21. Most probably either 18 or 19 or he looked those ages.