And so it begins ...

Discussion in 'Et Cetera, Et Cetera' started by dong20, Jun 1, 2008.

  1. dong20

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    Well, perhaps ...

    Two leading government ministers sprang to the defence of embattled Prime Minister Gordon Brown on Sunday, eager to quash speculation about a leadership challenge as his poll ratings tumble.

    Just one year after taking over from Tony Blair, Brown has been beset by a barrage of problems -- voters are punishing him over the flagging economy, soaring fuel and food prices and a botched tax reform.

    With media speculation rife about Brown's future on the eve of parliament returning on Monday from its latest break, Justice Secretary Jack Straw sought to calm nerves and quell mutineers.

    "Speculation about the leadership, frankly, is nonsense. He is the best leader that we could possibly have and he will see us through these difficulties," the veteran minister told BBC TV.

    Business Secretary John Hutton made equally loyal noises, telling Sky News: "Gordon is the right leader for our party and for our government."

    "I think unity is essential for progress in politics, so we should get behind the leader that we ourselves have chosen", he added.

    Brown leadership speculation "nonsense"
     
  2. jason_els

    jason_els <img border="0" src="/images/badges/gold_member.gi

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    What's the current balance in parliament now? Is there a chance Brown could be sent packing?

    If he does go, what will the new conservative government do about the child labor laws regarding the new PM? Won't he have to be in bed by 10pm every night?
     
  3. dong20

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    The presice breakdown is:

    Conservative (193)
    Democratic Unionist (9)
    Independent (3)
    Independent Conservative (2)
    Independent Labour (1)
    Labour (351)
    Liberal Democrat (63)
    Plaid Cymru (3)
    Respect (1)
    Scottish National (6)
    Sinn Fein (5) - They cannot vote.
    Social Democratic & Labour Party (3)
    UK Independence (1)
    Ulster Unionist (1)
    Speaker and Deputies (4) - They don't usually vote.

    Labour retains an overall majority of 65, which is functional.

    As for Brown being 'evicted' I'm really not sure, I started the thread for the debate but it's rare a non US political issue gets any attention so thanks for picking it up. I think at this point it's more mischievous press speculation than substantive knife sharpening but it's possible, and when I read gushing statements of ministerial support, alarm bells tend to ring.

    Brown was a competent Chancellor, and the timing of his ascension to PM was inopportune so it's hard to really assess his abilities. Regardless, he has no mandate and should have called a prompt election. It's obvious why he didn't then, and it's even more obvious why he can't now. His situation is perhaps as much a result of circumstance as [alleged] incompetence. He also had a tough act to follow, in politics perception is all.

    The one thing that makes me think it's more talk than substance is the certainty that a general election would need to be called where he to [be forced to] step down, and it would be one Labour would almost certainly lose.

    I seem to remember a thread a while back about Frank Field and murmurs of no confidence votes, I dismissed it then because MPs while may be arrogant and selfish they're also craven and they're unlikely to vote themselves out of office especially on such an issue as this, in that sense this is perhaps an echo of those same grumblings.

    That said, as above, anything is possible - hence the 'perhaps' ... :cool:
     
  4. Bbucko

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    Please forgive my ignorance, but are "Tories" and "Conservatives" the same? I thought they were separate.
     
  5. dong20

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    Nope, they're the same political party. On the other hand a conservative ideology in the UK doesn't mean the same as it does in the US, although on the extremes it can.
     
  6. Notaguru2

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    I hope not. LOL
     
  7. swordfishME

    swordfishME Member

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    We are hearing a lot of murmurs that Miliband is trying to get rid of Brown because he feels like he has a better chance to defeat the Tories and their youthful leader.

    I really doubt a no-confidence motion will be introduced because Labour would end up shooting themselves in the foot if they tried to force an election at this point.

    I do however predict a leadership challenge to Brown in the fall but I don't know how far it will go. It is inexplicably tied with US politics and what the Bush administration views is best for the war on terror.
     
  8. Drifterwood

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    I like Gordon Brown, Dong. I feel he is an honest, compassionate and intelligent man. However these qualities do not affect the ability to be a solid PM, as TB proved.

    MP's like being in power. When it looks like they may lose that power they crap themselves. But you know that.

    I don't accept that all the issues are beyond the Government's control and of course, now they can not blame a Tory Government that frankly few even remember that well. The issues are New Labour and the policies to address those issues are New Labour. Frankly they haven't been that impressive in many areas.

    He has two years to hold on and as they say a week is a long time in politics. I don't think that they will hold on and as the Tories showed, changes in leadership don't affect the momentum. Economically things are very likely to get worse and therefore the strength of the government will continue to be eroded.
     
  9. dong20

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    I don't have particularly strong feelings about him either way. I can't disagree with your characterisation though.

    Indeed they do.

    Neither do I. As I said I think Brown came to power at time that worked to TB's advantage, but has left Brown in an increasingly destructive political and economic spiral. Some of the causes being the result of shortcomings in Labour policies, some external.

    Yes, but the idea of him doing so for that long as 'unelected' PM sits a little uncomfortably with me. Were he to be forced to step down it would mean a General election, I doubt another non mandated change of leadership would be tolerated. I don't delude myself into believing the UK is a paragon of democracy but a second change of leadership with a mandate would be affront to the democratic process - there are limits to how much constitutional 'abuse' will be tolerated.

    I think that such a situation as Brown's eviction, should it happen is a way down the road, but as you say a week is a long time in politics ...
     
  10. faceking

    faceking Well-Known Member

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    forgive my ignorance.... but can you (or anyone) equate a few of the parties that translate to American political parites.... all 2 of them ;-)
     
  11. dong20

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    No need, you have recently and quite ably displayed your ignorance in respect of European politics. Well, most things actually, now I come to think of it.

    Incredible as it may seem that while this is a political thread it's not about the current epidemic of mud wrestling, eye gouging and generally undignified name calling in the name of what was it ... ah yes, democracy, in your neck of the woods. Yes, it's true, such things also occur in the other 95% of the world.

    I'd love to help you out FK, but in short, because I suspect you only posted in this thread for the purposes of levity and sarcasm and, as usual, failed miserably at both ... do your own research.:tongue:

    Before you say, "Golly, that was entirely uncalled for ..." you may well be right, so I'm sorry. In mitigation, all I can offer is that honestly, right now, at this moment it feels like the right thing to say, and we me be true to ourselves above all, right?
     
    #11 dong20, Jun 2, 2008
    Last edited: Jun 2, 2008
  12. ManlyBanisters

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    Um, can't or won't?

    They can't vote because the won't swear allegiance and refuse to take their seats. I wouldn't want anyone to get the erroneous impression that they are not allowed to vote - they are... if they tug their forelocks to the hereditary head honcho :rolleyes:
     
  13. dong20

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    Yes, it is only because they haven't taken their seats - because they will not swear an oath of allegiance to the head of state.

    So, I'd argue both. :cool:
     
  14. D_Humper E Bogart

    D_Humper E Bogart New Member

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    Well their POV seems logical, although it makes me wonder what's the point of being part of government then!

    As for Brown, he's not "bad" his policies seem to be though, which is a fatal flaw, but would the Conservatives have done better?
     
  15. dong20

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    A conveniently located Post Office and a well stocked bar.

    Actually, I think they're prohibited from using most H.O.C. facilities.
     
    #15 dong20, Jun 2, 2008
    Last edited: Jun 2, 2008
  16. ManlyBanisters

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    Don't forget £400,000 p.a. grants and funding and what-knot - actually it may be more by now, that's a 2005 figure.

    They were... for a time - I just had a quick search and I'm not actually sure that is still the case. There was a large majority vote against kicking them out permanantly. They were kicked out after the big bank heist in 2006, but I think they're back in now.

    As to Brown and his leadership - I wish they'd give him a bit more of a chance, and I wish he'd have a bit more fucking backbone and stop u-turning everytime something doesn't look too rosy. I'm sure the sharks are circling and they will probably get him - and I think that's a shame. The UK needs some of his policies to drag them, allbeit kicking and screaming, into Europe. I suppose England can sit back and watch Scotland then Wales, and maybe even NI, declare full independance and sign up properly with the United States of Europe. (Hey, a girl can dream!)
     
  17. dong20

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    And a potential hidden-from-public-scrutiny £23k p.a. 'grant' for secondary err ... housing.

    That MP's were excluded because their party robbed a bank (as opposed to the electorate) is deliciously ironic.

    I agree, at least in principle. I'm not too hung up on his non-mandated position, compared to some at least, but neither do I have unlimited tolerance if he screws up. I can't help but form the impression, in the context of actually being PM that for Gordon, the reality hasn't aligned with the perception quite so precisely as he hoped, or expected.

    I suspect the order of secession from GB may be nearer the exact reverse of what you listed, although I didn't read the order as meant with that intent. I'd also like to see tighter UK integration within the EU (USE?) in many aspects, and I would certainly like to see the UK 'adopt' the Euro. But I wonder the the boat has sailed on getting an advantageous rate, at least for the moment. I've heard and considered the arguments for and against, and frankly I'm unconvinced it would be the disaster the naysayers allege.

    I'm not really in favour of closer ties with the US as many have mooted. This is based on pragmatic, practical, and selfish (not 'personal'), grounds - While I see no need for such alliances be exclusive, national politics and their economies are ultimately tied to national self interest and ... IMO, with the US in decline it's a very heavy anchor.

    The EU may have its problems (serious understatement) but it's probably a better future for the UK than an unbalanced and (despite Obama's intimations were he to be elected) probably fickle tie in with the US - in decline or not. That said, I spend as much time as possible in Africa, and that's unlike either (another serious understatement), so what does it matter!

    On the sharks, I'm inclined to agree and can't help but think Brown will not be party leader at the next General Election. Putting personal feelings aside, unless he undergoes a radical transformation, in political terms I'm not sure that's such a loss.
     
  18. kalipygian

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    And just what is objectionable about kissing the hand of the daughter of the last king of Ireland?:biggrin1:

    <Kal quickly ducks>
     
    #18 kalipygian, Jun 3, 2008
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2008
  19. ManlyBanisters

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    King of Ireland - yeah, he called himself that didn't he...

    I think it went something like this:

    GEORGE VI: I am your king!
    MANLYB: Well, I didn't vote for you.
    GEORGE VI: You don't vote for kings.
    MANLYB: Well, 'ow did you become king then?
    GEORGE VI: The Lady of the Lake, her arm clad in the purest shimmering samite, held aloft Excalibur from the bosom of the water signifying by Divine Providence that I, Georgie Boy, was to carry Excalibur. (That and my brother was a Nazi and had to abdicate.) That is why I am your king!
    MANLYB: Listen -- strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government. Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony.

    etc. etc. :rolleyes:

    YouTube - HELP HELP I'M BEING REPRESSED
     
  20. swordfishME

    swordfishME Member

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    staunch monarchist are we? :biggrin1:
     
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