And the machine rolls on

Discussion in 'Et Cetera, Et Cetera' started by Elmer Gantry, May 9, 2008.

  1. Elmer Gantry

    Gold Member

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2006
    Messages:
    1,503
    Albums:
    2
    Likes Received:
    554
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Melbourne (VIC, AU)
    So it appears the fix is on. While everyone worries about what Hillary called Obama this week, the remainders of the New American Century's plan is rolling out.

    Not that this is a new idea.
    - IPS Inter Press Service

    But the PR flack has begun weeks ago
    FOXNews.com - Iran, General Electric and The New York Times - Bill O’Reilly | The O’Reilly Factor
    FOXNews.com - Petronomics 101 - Oliver North | War Stories

    They're even trying to blame the economy on them
    FOXNews.com - Treasury Secretary Paulson: Worst of Credit Crisis May Be Over - Politics | Republican Party | Democratic Party | Political Spectrum

    Whilst Syrian factories are bombed without provocation
    Syrian leader denies building nuclear reactor - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)
    and without the consent of the International Atomic Energy Agency that should have been notified beforehand.

    While the Iranians blame the US for the same sins
    Iran Says US Aids Rebels at Its Borders - CommonDreams.org

    Not that they are innocent either, even according to Patrick Cockburn
    Atlantic Free Press - Hard Truths for Hard Times - Tomgram: Patrick Cockburn, Petraeus's Ghost

    It reminds me of childhood bickering where "he started it" seems like a good enough defence.

    In the twilight days of the rule of The Great Shrub, it appears that his legacy for the USA will be the greatest denegration of it's international clout ever. Statements from the State Dept that were once holy writ and could move countries are now considered with scorn. Large swathes of the planet now ignore them altogethor.

    If the USA moves on Iran or Syria, will they have any friends at all?

    Is this all a forgone conclusion or will this be the first big test for Obama/Hillary?

    Will they stare down the machine or blink first?
     
  2. D_Fiona_Farvel

    D_Fiona_Farvel Account Disabled

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2007
    Messages:
    3,790
    Likes Received:
    17
    Iran Says US Aids Rebels at Its Borders - CommonDreams.org
    Hmm, I think the U.S. did set aside something like 50 mil. about 2 years ago to encourage democracy in Iran... (whatever democracy means in this day and age, as few are completely defining it - really never have I read so many different interpretations of the term democracy than have been offered since the afghan war.) Sorry, lack of sleep. :smile:

    I know during the Iranian elections earlier this year propaganda included underground papers and expansion of radio broadcasts. I believe even broadcasting in the minority languages of Kurdish and Azeri. So, there is some truth to Iran's claim.

    Strange thing is, the U.S. tactics are so friggin' dated. Pollack in The Persian Puzzle and a Doctoral thesis on the Revolution from about 1983 describe similar strategies (funding extremists and creating false factions) during operation ajax. Blah.

    Last night, I was reading Nikola Schahgaldian's (he has written some good stuff about Iran) report on post persian gulf war Iran, and in it he describes Iran's power as checked by Saddam and Iraq's "military machine". He also describes Iran as being "impressed" by the U.S. showing military might in the gulf war... I'm reading this and thinking, well damn, all that was lost in a very short period.

    Also, love how all of the reports/journals from "think tanks" dating from 1992-2001 all discount Russia as a non threat/irretrievably broken state. :rolleyes:


    FOXNews.com - Treasury Secretary Paulson: Worst of Credit Crisis May Be Over - Politics | Republican Party | Democratic Party | Political Spectrum
    "Iran, just named by the State Department as "the most active state sponsor of terrorism," and "a threat to regional stability and U.S. interests in the Middle East," this week hardened its position with respect to going nuclear. Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, who outranks the Persian Napoleon – Iranian president Mahmoud Amadinejad – said this week that Iran would not give up its nuclear program."
    ^ See this is interesting! Most focus on Amadinejad. It is all about Khamenei. He's no Khomeini, who was a great political figure as well as religious leader (even though Khamenei has experience in both and is not a pussy), but given the right opportunity, Khamenei may prove to be a pain in the ass.

    Atlantic Free Press - Hard Truths for Hard Times - Tomgram: Patrick Cockburn, Petraeus's Ghost
    I like how Cockburn refers to Muqtada as a "Messianic leader ". He has long distanced himself from that role - one reason being it is well known he didn't have the aptitude for religious (koranic) study. Early on the go to guy was Sistani, but the way he's been disrespected as of late, his role as a leader is not the same. Who knows who the next will be.

    It is indeed a clusterfuck.
    However, I believe with the right leaders and pointed diplomacy, the shit will not come to a head. Unfortunately, I do not believe anyone in government at this moment has the ability to orchestrate the needed changes. THe U.S. needs the best deep and open thinkers around to chime in, and with everyone so partisan (zealot?) and into finger pointing, that is unlikely to happen. Imo, of course.
     
  3. Elmer Gantry

    Gold Member

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2006
    Messages:
    1,503
    Albums:
    2
    Likes Received:
    554
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Melbourne (VIC, AU)
  4. D_Thoraxis_Biggulp

    D_Thoraxis_Biggulp New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 16, 2005
    Messages:
    1,352
    Likes Received:
    0


    I'd like so see some more detail on that, such as where exactly that oil is coming from. Got anything readily available?
     
  5. HazelGod

    Gold Member

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2006
    Messages:
    7,531
    Albums:
    1
    Likes Received:
    9
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    The Other Side of the Pillow
    Wow...a GOP senator from Texas pushing legislation beneficial to the petrochemical industry...what a shock.

    Don't bother addressing our suicidal dependence on this highly pollutive non-renewable source of energy at all...that might negatively affect the ExxonMobil stock price. :rolleyes:
     
  6. D_Thoraxis_Biggulp

    D_Thoraxis_Biggulp New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 16, 2005
    Messages:
    1,352
    Likes Received:
    0
    It's so adorable how people here will only read one part of a post and ignore the rest. Look again at the last sentence of the quoted paragraph. She's not claiming to have any plans for alternative fuel sources, but she is supportive of the idea of having the extra money put into researching the needed advent.
    Given how massive of a market it is, domestic oil is a good way to initially fund the obsolescence of oil. Once it's gained a bit of momentum, it will become a self sufficient market.
     
  7. Elmer Gantry

    Gold Member

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2006
    Messages:
    1,503
    Albums:
    2
    Likes Received:
    554
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Melbourne (VIC, AU)
    Oh, ok. Use up what you've got to stop the importation while gearing up for a greener future? Reasonable idea. Dunno about the timeline and I'm guessing that means Alaska is going to be busy.
     
  8. D_Thoraxis_Biggulp

    D_Thoraxis_Biggulp New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 16, 2005
    Messages:
    1,352
    Likes Received:
    0
    That seems to be the plan. Minimal surface damage would be necessary to tap into that oil.
     
  9. B_Nick4444

    B_Nick4444 New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2007
    Messages:
    7,002
    Likes Received:
    12
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    San Antonio, TX
    assuming that's even possible
     
  10. D_Thoraxis_Biggulp

    D_Thoraxis_Biggulp New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 16, 2005
    Messages:
    1,352
    Likes Received:
    0
    Yeh, there's still the matter of getting permission at all to drill in Alaska.
     
  11. B_Nick4444

    B_Nick4444 New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2007
    Messages:
    7,002
    Likes Received:
    12
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    San Antonio, TX
    and the political issues

    John McCain, most likely to win the Presidency at this point, has flat come out against any drilling in Anwar, for example
     
  12. D_Thoraxis_Biggulp

    D_Thoraxis_Biggulp New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 16, 2005
    Messages:
    1,352
    Likes Received:
    0
    I'm sure plenty of people will argue about the statistical likelihood of a McCain victory, but yes he does stand a good chance seeing as how he's officially secured the candidacy. And yes, that would definitely get in the way. Count on a Bush clone to prevent a reasonable means to an end.
     
  13. Elmer Gantry

    Gold Member

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2006
    Messages:
    1,503
    Albums:
    2
    Likes Received:
    554
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Melbourne (VIC, AU)
    That's the point I was originally trying to make. Obama's the only one that might upset the cart. The others (including her) can only be relied on to toe the conservative line.
     
  14. D_Thoraxis_Biggulp

    D_Thoraxis_Biggulp New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 16, 2005
    Messages:
    1,352
    Likes Received:
    0
    I could see him going for something like that. He talks a lot about "change" but if people listened beyond that, they'd learn that he's generally realistic about it.
     
  15. B_Nick4444

    B_Nick4444 New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2007
    Messages:
    7,002
    Likes Received:
    12
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    San Antonio, TX
    methinks you both are placing excessive value on campaign rhetoric

    the areas of "change" the American electorate is most interested in have structural constraints that would give whoever wins the Presidency, little wiggle room within which to maneuver
     
  16. D_Thoraxis_Biggulp

    D_Thoraxis_Biggulp New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 16, 2005
    Messages:
    1,352
    Likes Received:
    0
    True, but this is something being brought up within the Senate, not a Presidential candidate making promises on the delusion that the legislative branch will agree with whatever (s)he proposes. If it were to pass, I could see Obama signing off on it, as well. McCain, as you pointed out, would veto it provided he keeps his word.
     
  17. D_Fiona_Farvel

    D_Fiona_Farvel Account Disabled

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2007
    Messages:
    3,790
    Likes Received:
    17
    Definitely Alaska.
    Which doesn't make sense because building the infrastructure to produce oil is one of the most expensive parts of production. One reason Mexico's petrol resources remain untapped is because of the debt they would have to accumulate to just build the structure to get to and transport, not even refine, oil.

    What a lot of our politicians miss is that there are alternatives to oil, the most unpopular being, everyone cut back and the government give everyone incentive to change... such as, giving drivers & corporations, credits to convert to NGV or other alternative fuels/transportation methods. Providing those who use oil for heat with credits to add photovoltaic tile, solar heating, tankless water heaters, better insulation, switch to energy efficient appliance... there are so many ways to reduce consumption. Perhaps any are better options than attempting to find a way to further rely on a finite resource. :rolleyes:
     
  18. D_Thoraxis_Biggulp

    D_Thoraxis_Biggulp New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 16, 2005
    Messages:
    1,352
    Likes Received:
    0
    Well, if they're missing anything in that regard, it's awareness of the money needed to tap into these resources, since part of the plan is to use the extra money from domestic oil to fund the advent of a permanent and widely available alternative.
     
  19. D_Fiona_Farvel

    D_Fiona_Farvel Account Disabled

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2007
    Messages:
    3,790
    Likes Received:
    17
    I doubt there would be any extra money.
    However, at this moment there are readily available alternative energy resources that could permanently supplant oil as a fuel.

    People and corporations just need the impetus to implement changes.
     
  20. D_Thoraxis_Biggulp

    D_Thoraxis_Biggulp New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 16, 2005
    Messages:
    1,352
    Likes Received:
    0
    And the means to make them affordable to everyone.
     
Draft saved Draft deleted