Another example of fundamentalist Christian "love"

Bbucko

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Don't you think that all "religions" are cults. They all started out that way. They are all man-made. How do we call scriblings written by plain old men "scriptures". These people weren't gods. Humans aren't saints. No such thing as a saint.

Religion, in its broadest sense, is simply people trying to make sense and purpose of their lives. I know that some of my experiences defy common sense and rational, scientific debate; yet they are no less real that my dinner last night or how I got to work the night before.

As I have said many times: my ego does not permit that my life be devoid of meaning. That does not believe that I believe in punishment-karma reincarnation any more than I believe that a crucified person rose from the dead to walk amongst the living.

At a certain level, it's all either abstracted to a point beyond meaning or just another load of horseshit. Either way, it's not my path.
 

JustAsking

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To me, it is sillier to think that a Big Bang created the universe, or that the world and all of its order just occurred by accident, than it is to believe in the Adam and Eve story.

Yet most of the world's Christians belong to denominations whose doctrines accept the findings and theories of modern science on the same basis that science does.

Big Bang Theory is illogical because:

1) there can never be nothing (darkness is still something that supposedly preceded the Big Bang).

2) an effect with no cause?

Except your two premises are scientific theories based on observations we have made in this universe. Making claims about causality outside or before our universe existed is outside the scope of those observations.

Secondly, the Big Bang is not a theory about the origin of the universe. It only explains the unfolding of the universe at the earliest point where we can draw conclusions. It doesn't claim that there was nothing before the Big Bang.


S
Scientists who ponder the origins of the universe know nothing. They've hopelessly been speculating over time, unable to even get the train on the tracks to start toward their destination. Add they are always forced to "rethink" their theories after so many years, as is the case of Blackholes (cannot explain them with current laws of physics - not in the least).

Yet the computer you are reading this on was designed around two theories that are 100 and 150 years old respectively. One theory that was developed in 1860 or so by a guy who was working by gas lamp still predicts everything we know about electromagnetic fields today. It is used to predict the behavior of those fields in the half billion or so tiny transistors in the CPU of your computer. This theory that was developed 150 years ago is being proven in a half billion locations in your computer at a rate of about a billion times per second.

The other theory predicts the properties of matter at the atomic level and below. It was formulated about 100 years ago and is used to design the transistors in your computer today.

Science has the intellectual honesty to constantly improve its theories when they are challenged by new observations. That is the reason for its astonishing success over the last 400 years or so, where before that we lived in a world lit only by fire. I am not sure why you find that to be an undesireable quality.


The fact is that the universe is and remains completely and utterly mysterious, without a speck of it in infinity being understood by science. Yes, 2 + 2 = 4 on Earth, but in the universe it doesn't. Scientists just cannot accept the inifinite limitations of their own minds.

And yet somehow the Big Bang theory predicts most of the properties of our universe we observe today based on how it models what happened billions of years ago.

My feeling is that there are few Christians who damage the image of Christianity more than people who insist that the acceptance of science and Christian faith are mutually exclusive. It makes all of us Christians look ridiculous.
 
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JustAsking

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Add they are always forced to "rethink" their theories after so many years, as is the case of Blackholes (cannot explain them with current laws of physics - not in the least).

Black holes were predicted by general relativity decades before they were confirmed by observation.
 

bobbyboyle

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To me, it is sillier to think that a Big Bang created the universe, or that the world and all of its order just occurred by accident, than it is to believe in the Adam and Eve story.
Argument from incredulity - fallacy.

Big Bang Theory is illogical because:

1) there can never be nothing (darkness is still something that supposedly preceded the Big Bang).

2) an effect with no cause?
Strawman - fallacy.

Scientists who ponder the origins of the universe know nothing. They've hopelessly been speculating over time, unable to even get the train on the tracks to start toward their destination. Add they are always forced to "rethink" their theories after so many years, as is the case of Blackholes (cannot explain them with current laws of physics - not in the least).
Citing the scientific process as a weakness of science - stupid.

The fact is that the universe is and remains completely and utterly mysterious, without a speck of it in infinity being understood by science. Yes, 2 + 2 = 4 on Earth, but in the universe it doesn't. Scientists just cannot accept the inifinite limitations of their own minds.
Well, mathematics has been integral to all scientific theories to date. We do not observe things happening that cannot be described mathematically. Science uses maths, not conjecture, to consider the Universe. Your inability to understand how science works is not the fault of science.
 

B_Nick8

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Religion, in its broadest sense, is simply people trying to make sense and purpose of their lives. I know that some of my experiences defy common sense and rational, scientific debate; yet they are no less real that my dinner last night or how I got to work the night before.

As I have said many times: my ego does not permit that my life be devoid of meaning. That does not believe that I believe in punishment-karma reincarnation any more than I believe that a crucified person rose from the dead to walk amongst the living.

At a certain level, it's all either abstracted to a point beyond meaning or just another load of horseshit. Either way, it's not my path.

Quoted for truth (justice and the non-American way), accuracy, and agreement.
 

Dave NoCal

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This is a fascinating thread. I was raised in a very religious family and attended church three times a week until I went to college because I was required to by my parents. By the time I was about eight I concluded that this stuff just doesn't add up for me and never has since. The only "religious experiences" I have had were when I was on LSD during my college years. It seems possible to me that others have such experiences without LSD but that doesn't change my belief that religions are supernatural belief systems and religious experiences are delusions.

However, when people conclude that their supernatural belief systems entitle them to decide the terms and laws under which I live my life that is not acceptable. When people use that certainty as a weapon, that's not acceptable either. That is also the case when people take it upon themselves to harrass me into believing something that seems manifestly unbelievable and which I have no desire to believe. To me, all religions barring Zen Buddhism, Unitarianism, and the Quakers (Friends) are on a continuum of obnoxiousness.

A common smug religious twatty saying is that "there are no atheists in foxholes." I have come very close to death while conscious and had no sense of needing a deux ex machina. My deeply religious mother died this year and for her sake I hope there is a heaven as she would surely be in it. However, I have no illusion that that actually the case. It would be nice but she is gone and the world is poorer for it.
 

Bbucko

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A common smug religious twatty saying is that "there are no atheists in foxholes." I have come very close to death while conscious and had no sense of needing a deux ex machina. My deeply religious mother died this year and for her sake I hope there is a heaven as she would surely be in it. However, I have no illusion that that actually the case. It would be nice but she is gone and the world is poorer for it.

My most sincere condolences, and I have no wish to turn your personal loss into some cheap point here in the Politics Forum.

All I can say is that if she simply ceases to exist then it's your duty to continue her ideals under your specific umbrella of influence and compassion. If she does survive, in one form or another, somehow, than whatever kernels of truth and wisdom that she learned along the way add another thread to the tapestry of what we call humanity.

Certainly either way has meaning and relevance to our greater experience.
 

Drifterwood

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I am afraid that the more I am exposed to the excellence of the scientific community, the more I find some religious belief primitive idiocy.

I don't have a problem with believing that there is a god, but if you are going to ponder the human relationship to that god, why stop with writings that are two thousand years old and more, and place that relationship within a cosmological context that is clearly incorrect and certainly less than half relevant to your modern life and culture.

Hiding in antiquity is dumb, it don't impress me much and I have an MA in studying it. The fatal error that fundies make is to fail to allow that the context or rather the understanding of the whole context of man's relationship to their god has moved forward. The greatness of science is that it successfully fights (when it is allowed to by the repressors) its own theories. NB the fact that the Big Bang theory is now little held.

On a seaparate note, did you see the latest shame of the Catholic Church in the Netherlands?

BBC News - Institutional Dutch Catholic abuse 'affected thousands'

It is clearly time to admit that there is a link between the format of the catholic priesthood and abuse. As such, IMO, the catholic church should not be allowed any connection with any institution for minors. No contact with children. Sorry Mr. Jesuit, time to fuck off and die. I am sorry if some people find that offensive, but how much abuse are we supposed to tolearte just because someone says they work with god?
 
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houtx48

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If you had never heard of the Bible and someone came up to you with some of these stories would you more than likely think they were batshit crazy? If you knew you got one chance and this was it would you live your life differently?