Another look at the Immigration Issue

[B_VinylBoy]

talltpaguy: I'm more than certain with a little research I can provide you many scientific sources that will illustrate how a person's behavior, regardless of how intelligent they are, is directly affected by the way they were raised. To suggest that the years he spent in America before he became an adult is irrelevant shows that you're not willing to consider all angles and options to this scenario. I'll keep a note of that moving forward, because it does leave out many logical explanations for the kid's actions.

Being that I'm a web developer as well, I sincerely doubt that a quick online application to become a legal citizen of the United States would have been appropriate given the circumstances. Many times, these sites are designed to provide service to the lowest common denominator of applicant. This is apparent with many online applications that you can file online for 30 second approval for credit cards. One blemish on your credit rating (even if it's one late payment on a loan from 7 years ago) will make the system think you're a credit risk and would either prompt a denial of your claim or a number for you to call to go through the longer process which would have been the better choice to begin with. Unlike humans who have the ability to weigh the severity of different circumstances and judge accordingly, most simplified computerized systems do not have the sophisticated algorithms necessary to tell whether or not the user on the other end is legitimate or a fraud.

This is intellectually dishonest. First of all, he is not a "boy", he is a 19yr old man who is old enough to join the military, own property, a business, etc...

This statement is also just as dishonest. As if most 19 year old men are even intellectually capable to own property or a business. And considering most people know how to point, aim and shoot a gun (in some shape or form) by the time they get their first Nintendo, using the Military as a benchmark for adulthood seems less of a adult rite and more of a legal benchmark for the government to use you for potential wars.

Furthermore, nobody is charging him with federal crimes for drug trafficking, murder or any other felony, so you can give up on the red herrings.

No red herrings here... just telling you how it is.
The fact that the kid isn't a convict with a criminal record just adds to the fact that he shouldn't be deported. Given the current volatile atmosphere around immigrants in this country (as partially demonstrated by yourself and others), I can completely understand why a 19 year old Mexican who was brought into this country illegally by his parents at the age of 4 would not immediately try to go through the system to become a legal citizen.

All that happened is an ADULT who is not in this country legally, was caught and now ICE will have to figure out what to do with him... I really can't imagine him not getting a student visa or residency status while he goes through the process of naturalization... But if he gets deported, it's on him, not on the rest of society.

It may not be "on" the rest of the society, but it would be a major tell as to how backwards our society has become.

 

[B_talltpaguy]

talltpaguy: I'm more than certain with a little research I can provide you many scientific sources that will illustrate how a person's behavior, regardless of how intelligent they are, is directly affected by the way they were raised. To suggest that the years he spent in America before he became an adult is irrelevant shows that you're not willing to consider all angles and options to this scenario. I'll keep a note of that moving forward, because it does leave out many logical explanations for the kid's actions.

You argument has no basis in reality.

If the kid was raised to break the law, as you are apparently asserting, then we as a society have every reason to deport him right now, and shouldn't be spending several hundred thousand dollars giving him a Harvard education for free.



The law is the law. This guy clearly was aware that his presence in this country was in contravention of US law, and there are clear actions that he could take to remedy the situation before it ever got to this point... Actions that he as an adult chose not to take.

Again, the onus is on HIM to set things straight before it got to this point, NOT on society to magically read the minds of everyone present in the country, divine that they are here illegally, and mail them pre-completed residency/naturalization applications that merely need a signature. If he wants to be here, then he's going to have to put forth a bit of effort, and not pretend that he is entitled to be here, just because he thinks that's the way it should be.

 

[B_VinylBoy]

I would like to make one correction to your seemingly, authoritarian way of disputing this topic, talltpaguy... my argument is in a form of reality that you refuse to accept.

When you consider the fact that even the strictest of laws in this country for some of the most heinous crimes imaginable, are based on very strict set of criteria that needs to be met in order to qualify, none of the arguments that I present are either out of the ordinairy or wouldn't be considered in an actual debate in a court of law. You're not going to bully me around in a thread I created, so let's not make such illogical declarations.

It's apparent that we have different opinions on this matter. I honestly feel that there's a chance this kid could be deported, given the circumstances is ridiculous. To treat this kid as if he was some kind if meanace to society is equally as foolish. Some things go beyond the law as it's written, and if a judge can see individual cases in this manner then I would expect any person I would debate on this topic to do the same.

 

[HazelGod]

I hold individuals accountable for their actions

VB, you have to admit this statement flies in the face of your baffling refusal to agree that the student bears responsibility for his current predicament.

 

[gymfresh]

Where was Harvard in all this? They don't bother to check whether matriculating students are in this country legally? Especially the limited few on full scholarship?

In any case, the present immigration "debate" in this country is a patently racist construct. Millions of people came to this country illegally over the past 150 years, proved productive, paid taxes, and became part of our social fabric. Of course, most of those people came from Europe. But most were in dire economic straits when they arrived.

Now that most of the immigration has shifted to people with darker skin or different eyes, it's all about tough enforcement of the laws. The arguments about "burdens on our system" are an utter smokescreen. These immigrants, documented or undocumented, work hard, just like waves of their predecessors from other countries.

It's hysteria over the "browning" of America and irrational fear of hearing another language, and should constantly be revealed as such.

 

[B_VinylBoy]

VB, you have to admit this statement flies in the face of your baffling refusal to agree that the student bears responsibility for his current predicament.

No it doesn't. How many times do we see people break laws in this country, yet either are given a lighter sentence or in some cases none at all? I never once disagreed with you or talltpaguy about whether or not a law was broken. Where did I say that the kid didn't break the law? My issue has always been about what should be done given the circumstances.

Holding people accountable for their actions is more than just making sure we throw the book at people who screw up. We must be able to weigh all evidence accordingly and come with an adequate solution to the problem. Because let's face it, if it were you facing potential jail time or deportation you'd want people to consider everything you could provide to best explain your motives.

 

[justasimpleguy]

thur takin' mah jerbs!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[sbat]

Look, I understand accepting tragic life events that just happen - a loved one dying of illness, etc. But anger, rage, and even hatred are perfectly normal reactions to events where someone deliberately and purposefully fucks you over. Imagine if the kid was from Zimbabwe instead of Mexico. He would fall from having access to some of the most powerful networks in the world to a life sentence of struggling for subsistence in arguably the armpit of the world. As another poster mentioned, a person would have to be an asshole of epic proportions to deport a person like him. So his descent is really predicated on someone willing to hide behind legalese and use it as a justification for knowingly destroying someone else's life.

I would have just let your comment go, and agreed to disagree had you not added the part about the need for introspection if I felt some bitterness or hatred had I suffered that kind of fate as described. For someone who makes so many (compelling) empathy-based arguments, that's a stunning lack of empathy. I mean, really, what would you say to an asylum seeker trying to escape sure torture if they are deported back to their home country, whose asylum claim has been denied? "Sorry, but if you feel anger or hatred towards my country, or towards anyone at all while they're sticking electrodes onto your balls, you'll really need to reassess your priorities"??

My bio's full of situations which, though not strictly comparable, are similar enough for me to know that nothing would turn me into a terrorist.

I also lived for several years as an illegal alien in France, where I was the sole caregiver for my lover who eventually succumbed to AIDS. Had I been deported before he died, I'd have been devastated, but his death devastated me anyway: I didn't just lose him, I lost our entire life together in Paris with all the hopes and dreams that brought me there in the first place. Coming home left me in ruins and took years to repair, but I never considered a life of criminality nor did I allow bitterness to take over my life, despite the intensity of my personal loss.

I don't know you, sbat, but if you truly think that a terrible twist of fate could lead you to becoming a terrorist, or that you'd blame entire groups of people whom you've never met for the inevitable tragedies that will come into your life, you seriously need some quality time of introspection and reassessment of your priorities. Something's just not right there.

 

[curiousvirgin]

He shouldn't have got the scholarship if he were a non citizen. Its all really the fault of the university. To refuse a scholarship for failing requirements is ok, acceptable to a general individual. But this situation where he has been given a scholarship to pursue his future, and for it to be snatched away is cruelty.He should be given a study visa and an option to apply for migration should he qualify for residency status. He's 19 years old.... give the kid a chance to have a life.

 

[Bbucko]

Look, I understand accepting tragic life events that just happen - a loved one dying of illness, etc. But anger, rage, and even hatred are perfectly normal reactions to events where someone deliberately and purposefully fucks you over.

Yeah, I've given you the five-second recap of eight grueling, nearly impossible months, with no mention of the institutionalized anger and bitterness I felt from the French establishment, including the months-long fight (and it was nothing less) to get him out of Hôpital Tenon and into the Hospice care he so desperately needed. In the end, I was grateful and much relieved to have given him three weeks of respite after months of medical (including surgical) experimentation to see what he could endure given his extreme condition. This was despite the fact that Hospice was "only for cancer patients, not those with AIDS". I was told this by the administrative director of Hôpital Tenon: exact quote, not an approximation.

I was a pariah and nearly evicted from Hôpital Tenon simply for insisting that his rights and dignity as a human being be recognized. By then his mind was already lost months previously. You seriously have no idea: had my skills in French been any less than brilliant, he'd have been lost to their "quest for knowledge". I saw a human being being tortured, no less the ultimate love of my life, and on a daily, if not hourly basis.

You seriously have no idea.

Imagine if the kid was from Zimbabwe instead of Mexico. He would fall from having access to some of the most powerful networks in the world to a life sentence of struggling for subsistence in arguably the armpit of the world. As another poster mentioned, a person would have to be an asshole of epic proportions to deport a person like him. So his descent is really predicated on someone willing to hide behind legalese and use it as a justification for knowingly destroying someone else's life.

How can I respond? The world is unimaginably cruel, and in Africa (sadly) it's doubly so. Of course I have empathy, and I would do all that I could. But ultimately Zimbabwe is not Harvard or Paris, and (sadly, horrifically) different rules apply. Do I condone it? Of course not. But reality dictates that one must always live within the cultural norms of one's geography (and, ultimately, destiny, as it's more or less the same thing).

Would it embitter me? Yeah: probably. Would it incite me to judge whole populations to the point where I felt justified in negating their very humanity? No. I don't run with that pack of wolves, and hopefully never will.

If living with HIV for 26 years (including flatlining twice) hasn't turned me into an activist/killer then I'm not sure nothing will. I'm made of tougher stuff.

Know whom you're playing with, luv.

would have just let your comment go, and agreed to disagree had you not added the part about the need for introspection if I felt some bitterness or hatred had I suffered that kind of fate as described. For someone who makes so many (compelling) empathy-based arguments, that's a stunning lack of empathy. I mean, really, what would you say to an asylum seeker trying to escape sure torture if they are deported back to their home country, whose asylum claim has been denied? "Sorry, but if you feel anger or hatred towards my country, or towards anyone at all while they're sticking electrodes onto your balls, you'll really need to reassess your priorities"??

No one is holding electrodes to anyone's balls in this case. I've already stated (somewhat obliquely) that I've seen torture perpetrated against the love of my life in my presence. Don't you dare question my ability to call you out on a hypothetical. And if it's not a hypothetical, then don't apply your experience to a thread about some Mexican illegal who somehow made it to Harvard. Start a different thread and we can discuss my (well-stated) opposition to torture.

 

[sbat]

I have said nothing to minimize your suffering.

And who said anything about hypothetical? Exchange Harvard for a school of somewhat lesser renown, Mexico for Zimbabwe, and you have my cousin. Who is currently stuck in Zimbabwe, unable to obtain an exit visa and unable to obtain a visa to re-enter the US. His options are to stay in Zimbabwe and live with what would be barely tolerable in the US or to flee illegally to a neighboring country and risk detention and who knows what at the hands of the government who do not treat fleeing emigrants kindly.

Anger is a natural and normal reaction. Sure, it doesn't help, and sure I've gotten over my own anger and do what I can to help. But my initial point was that some people do not get over this anger, do not accept the fact that someone or some system views them as permanent second class world citizens to be shuttled off "somewhere else." Anger, and disatisfaction is what drives people to change things. You can get fucked and accept it, and keep getting fucked. Or you can say no. For most, the driving emotion that emboldens them to say no is overwhelming anger and rage born of feeling no just recourse in the system, and so they take justice into their own hands.

You know the quote - one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. Russians call the Chechnyan rebels "terrorists." The rebels see themselves as an independence movement, fighting for their self-respect - self-respect that has been denied to them. In a modern day setting, the Boston Tea Party wold have been called an act of terrorism. From that anger and rage that was whipped up into an organized movement, you have born a country capable of creating opportunity for millions of people disenfranchised in their own home countries.

Again, I questioned what you said not because I didn't think you haven't experienced that depth of feeling in a situation, but because I suspected you had.

Yes, very bad things have come from that kind of anger that comes from being helpless and screwed over. But so have good things - the Civil Rights movement wouldn't have happened if some folks didn't get incredibly angry, the independence movements across African wouldnt' have happened if people didn't get angry.

And surely, if one's purpose in life is equal opportunity, justice, decent quality of life, and it was intentionally and unequivocably denied to them, it is very patronizing to tell someone that there is something wrong with feeling anger and a desire to do whatever the hell it takes to not just be someone's fuck toy.

Yeah, I've given you the five-second recap of eight grueling, nearly impossible months, with no mention of the institutionalized anger and bitterness I felt from the French establishment, including the months-long fight (and it was nothing less) to get him out of Hôpital Tenon and into the Hospice care he so desperately needed. In the end, I was grateful and much relieved to have given him three weeks of respite after months of medical (including surgical) experimentation to see what he could endure given his extreme condition. This was despite the fact that Hospice was "only for cancer patients, not those with AIDS". I was told this by the administrative director of Hôpital Tenon: exact quote, not an approximation.

I was a pariah and nearly evicted from Hôpital Tenon simply for insisting that his rights and dignity as a human being be recognized. By then his mind was already lost months previously. You seriously have no idea: had my skills in French been any less than brilliant, he'd have been lost to their "quest for knowledge". I saw a human being being tortured, no less the ultimate love of my life, and on a daily, if not hourly basis.

You seriously have no idea.



How can I respond? The world is unimaginably cruel, and in Africa (sadly) it's doubly so. Of course I have empathy, and I would do all that I could. But ultimately Zimbabwe is not Harvard or Paris, and (sadly, horrifically) different rules apply. Do I condone it? Of course not. But reality dictates that one must always live within the cultural norms of one's geography (and, ultimately, destiny, as it's more or less the same thing).

Would it embitter me? Yeah: probably. Would it incite me to judge whole populations to the point where I felt justified in negating their very humanity? No. I don't run with that pack of wolves, and hopefully never will.

If living with HIV for 26 years (including flatlining twice) hasn't turned me into an activist/killer then I'm not sure nothing will. I'm made of tougher stuff.

Know whom you're playing with, luv.



No one is holding electrodes to anyone's balls in this case. I've already stated (somewhat obliquely) that I've seen torture perpetrated against the love of my life in my presence. Don't you dare question my ability to call you out on a hypothetical. And if it's not a hypothetical, then don't apply your experience to a thread about some Mexican illegal who somehow made it to Harvard. Start a different thread and we can discuss my (well-stated) opposition to torture.

 

[Bbucko]

This discussion is so far off topic as to be a complete and total hijack, Sbat. I suggest we take it to PMs and let folks get back to the story about the Mexican at Harvard.