Another mass murder shooting, this time in DC

vince

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The linked article states that "The gun crime figures, which were obtained by the Tories from official Parliamentary answers..." I think that means the answers came out of a parliamentary debate. Which means the figures could be warped by political motivations.

The official statistics on crime in Britain in the past 10 years can be found here. They largely mirror the information about firearms use in crime I gave you in the earlier post.

America has a culture of violence that is due to many factors. Gun control by itself will not change that culture. But less permissive and reasonable laws which can be enforced, could be part of the solution. Unfortunately, I don't think it's ever likely to change because there is too much money at stake and the system is too corrupted by it.
 

Not_Punny

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(All killing is deplorable)

I gotta love ya, Vince, but...

to target the USA as a "culture of violence"? There are a few other areas on this planet that I would consider much more violent.

- - - - - - - - - - -

Why can't we all just get along? :rolleyes:

(I am American but spent only half my life in America)
 

lovinglife

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The linked article states that "The gun crime figures, which were obtained by the Tories from official Parliamentary answers..." I think that means the answers came out of a parliamentary debate. Which means the figures could be warped by political motivations.

The official statistics on crime in Britain in the past 10 years can be found here. They largely mirror the information about firearms use in crime I gave you in the earlier post.

America has a culture of violence that is due to many factors. Gun control by itself will not change that culture. But less permissive and reasonable laws which can be enforced, could be part of the solution. Unfortunately, I don't think it's ever likely to change because there is too much money at stake and the system is too corrupted by it.
As far as I can tell from your link (mine was for 1998-2008) there was something else that changed and 2008 was a peak year for crime. It looks like something changed because all crime rose until 2008 (drug related, gang related, and weapon related) and there has been a rather steep decline since then. Also, since mine is only until 2008 it looks like it doesnt include a lot of the firearm data in your link, only possession of firearms is listed as an offense.

If you know what laws changed or if there was a change in enforcement or something around 2009 that would be the reason for decline, not the removal of weapons.
 

Not_Punny

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Actually, I take SOME of that back... :tongue:

According to Wikipedia, the USA has a rather large percentage of primary school massacres, although I seriously doubt that all countries are 'fessing up on the subject.

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Oh, and quite a few school-attacks (in gun-controlled countries) involve knives and machetes, so banning guns doesn't necessarily remove the danger of mentally ill/psycho people invading a school or other civilian place.
 
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B_underguy1

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(All killing is deplorable)

I gotta love ya, Vince, but...

to target the USA as a "culture of violence"? There are a few other areas on this planet that I would consider much more violent.

- - - - - - - - - - -

Why can't we all just get along? :rolleyes:

(I am American but spent only half my life in America)

America is an incredibly militaristic society. Probably only second to Israel.
 

Drifterwood

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Simply taking away guns doesnt solve anything.

OK then. Tell me how you commit any of these mass shootings without access to a gun?

Tell me how far this latest kid would have got with knives in a Naval Yard?

Tell me how many have a go heroes there have been who succeeded in stopping these incidents? Have 11,000 a year been saved? Your NRA would have us believe that everyone carrying guns would solve the problem - for the love of god.....

Guns give people the guts to do outrageous things. They also have a time advantage, killing many even before brave cops have put their lives on the line to stop them.

You have to be brainwashed or deceitfully motivated to think that it is OK for mentally ill people to have such easy open access to serious weaponry or guns of any type. Sorry, any other conclusion seems wholly illogical to me. Sillystring has failed to give any argument that a democratic people should not be held responsible for the laws they have.
 

vince

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(All killing is deplorable)

I gotta love ya, Vince, but...

to target the USA as a "culture of violence"? There are a few other areas on this planet that I would consider much more violent.

- - - - - - - - - - -

Why can't we all just get along? :rolleyes:

(I am American but spent only half my life in America)
Hey N_P nice to see you back!

Sure there are other places in the world that are much more violent than the USA, such as South Africa, Columbia, and Mexico. But I don't think any other nation in the upper ranks of development are close when it comes to gun violence.
 

vince

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As far as I can tell from your link (mine was for 1998-2008) there was something else that changed and 2008 was a peak year for crime. It looks like something changed because all crime rose until 2008 (drug related, gang related, and weapon related) and there has been a rather steep decline since then. Also, since mine is only until 2008 it looks like it doesnt include a lot of the firearm data in your link, only possession of firearms is listed as an offense.

If you know what laws changed or if there was a change in enforcement or something around 2009 that would be the reason for decline, not the removal of weapons.
The stats are going to vary according how each locale defines "violent crime" and by the agenda of those putting out the reports. I noticed that the Daily Mail was being quoted as saying crime was up in Britain. But other sources are saying exactly the opposite. So I went and tried to find out why that is and one thing that is unsurprising is that the DM is a conservative tabloid newspaper and the article appeared on the same day an opposition Tory MP was due to make a major speech on crime. Then the anti-gun control lobby picks up on that one article and it spreads around and becomes fact. That's the way the internet works.
An oft-cited source for the argument that the U.S. has a lower violent crime rate than the U.K. is a 2009 article in the Daily Mail, an English tabloid. The story put the U.K. at the top of a so-called “League of Shame” for its violence.

The statistics in that article were compiled by Britain’s Conservative Party and drawn from different reports by the United Nations and the European Commission. They do not appear to be part of an official study, and specific reports used by the U.N. and E.C. were not named.

Citing various crime statistics, the article claims the U.K. was the most violent country in the EU. However, that title was not given by the EU or U.N.

Rather, it was Britain’s Conservative Party that named Britain “the most violent in the EU” on a day when one of its members was scheduled to give a speech on crime

According to the FBI, there are four crimes classified as “violent” in crime statistics: murder/non-negligent manslaughter, forcible rape, robbery and aggravated assault.

The list does not include burglaries, which is considered a property crime in the U.S. but a violent crime in the U.K.

In addition to murder, forcible rape, robbery, aggravated assault and burglary, England and Wales classify domestic violence and all sexual offenses – not just forcible rape – as violent.

Scotland and Northern Ireland compile their own statistics and systems.

In England and Wales, sexual offenses and domestic violence contain a wide range of offenses and make up a significant part of the overall number of their violent crimes.

Sexual offenses include rape, sexual assault, sexual activity with children, soliciting prostitutes (but not prostitution itself), sexual threats, sexual touching and indecent exposure.

Domestic abuse, described as a form of “intimate personal violence,” includes the following: non-sexual emotional or financial abuse, threats, physical force, sexual assault and stalking carried out by a current or former partner or other family member.

Several other crimes that are classified as violent in the U.K. include vehicle theft, purse-snatching and bicycle theft.
The Difference Between US-UK Violent Crime Rates Depends On Definition of ‘Violent Crime’ | My name is Ray Downs. I'm a journalist. Here's my work.

I can't vouch for the veracity of that site. But he does point out how differences in definitions from state to state can impact reported statistics.

I don't think that simply removing weapons is going to totally solve the US gun violence problem and I didn't write that. Keeping them out of the hands of people who shouldn't have them, will make a difference. Requiring safety education, real background checks and waiting periods of about a week would probably do a lot to reduce the gun violence in America. Those things won't impact on anyone's ability to defend themselves or their families. Or on their second amendment rights.
 
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vince

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Washington Navy Yard shooting: Shooter allowed to buy gun despite mental issues, Navy misconduct

Despite hearing voices, shooting out someone’s tires in a 9/11-induced rage and being cited for misconduct eight times while he was a Navy reservist, Aaron Alexis passed a federal background check with flying colors and was able to buy the gun he used in Monday’s massacre.

Read more: Washington Navy Yard shooting: Shooter allowed to buy gun despite mental issues, Navy misconduct - NY Daily News

This guy went to a shop and legally bought a gun.

Real background checks, education and stricter licencing. Guns laws in the US are too permissive and lackadaisical. You'd at least cut down on the crazies killing and the spur of the moment anger killings.
 
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Everyone is perfectly reasonable when it comes to purchasing, owning, licensing, registering and maintaining an automobile or other vehicle. I don't understand why the same logic cannot be applied to owning a firearm.

Anyone can own a vehicle but you cannot legally operate one if:

you are not licensed
you are mentally, or physically impaired
drunk
incapacitated
blind
etc.

No one is afraid of the government confiscating your car and it sits in your driveway.

This is insane.
 

vince

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Everyone is perfectly reasonable when it comes to purchasing, owning, licensing, registering and maintaining an automobile or other vehicle. I don't understand why the same logic cannot be applied to owning a firearm.

Anyone can own a vehicle but you cannot legally operate one if:

you are not licensed
you are mentally, or physically impaired
drunk
incapacitated
blind
etc.

No one is afraid of the government confiscating your car and it sits in your driveway.

This is insane.
Exactly. If automobile ownership was a constitutional right, would Americans be allowed to just go out and buy one and drive it around without training and licensing? Would the AAA be lobbying Congress to not enact driver registration laws?
 
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Drifterwood

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We will await the argument for having no control...............

Anyone care to throw a figure out as to how many, a percentage, would fail decent gun control tests and checks?

Just for comparison, around one in every hundred people in the UK has a firearms or shotgun licence and 2% a year are refused for shotguns and 1% for firearms. You can probably conclude from the latter that unsuitable people pretty much know that they shouldn't apply and the vast majority of people 99% aren't at all interested in owning any form of firearms weapon.
 
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Bardox

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Arguing gun control has lost it's charm for me. There is going to be a few weeks of gun debate and nothing will happen. Sad to say, but mass shootings in America have become normal. The shocking thing would be is if a month went by and there wasn't a mass shooting somewhere in this country. It's expected at this point. Tragic as this shooting was, everyone feels bad for those who lost loved ones, those 12 deaths are not going to trigger any kind of change.

There is no point in arguing about guns or gun violence in America. America likes violence and big guns. If someone created a hand gun that shot radioactive grenades there would be a group of Americans screaming about how they need it to defend their home.
 

cruztbone

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Bardox, this has NOTHING TO DO WITH CHARM.
Vince, you are right. there is no sense to the gun laws in this nation.
another 12 innocent people killed in the US due to our GUN INSANITY.
IT MUST STOP.

and that means you need to STOP writing here for a day, and instead WRITE YOUR MEMBER OF CONGRESS AND YOUR TWO US SENATORS.

tell them the Manchin -Toomey bill was a good one. it got more than 50 votes in the senate, including 4 brave Republicans.

to do less is to DOOM the US to ever more horrific , AVOIDABLE and preventable events like the one at the Navy yard on Monday of this week.
 

vince

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Write your Congressman yourself. I'm not an American. The only reason I care about anything going on in the USA is that I have some family living there. My native country has sensible ideas about how to control weapons and a correspondingly low murder rate. So does my adopted MUSLIM country and I feel much safer here than I do when I have to go to the US.
 

sillystring

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Bardox, this has NOTHING TO DO WITH CHARM.
Vince, you are right. there is no sense to the gun laws in this nation.
another 12 innocent people killed in the US due to our GUN INSANITY.
IT MUST STOP.

and that means you need to STOP writing here for a day, and instead WRITE YOUR MEMBER OF CONGRESS AND YOUR TWO US SENATORS.

tell them the Manchin -Toomey bill was a good one. it got more than 50 votes in the senate, including 4 brave Republicans.

to do less is to DOOM the US to ever more horrific , AVOIDABLE and preventable events like the one at the Navy yard on Monday of this week.

How's that "the killer killed because he is a killer from the killer producing State of Kill-em-all Texas" theory working out for you Mr. Uninformed OP?

Did you jump the gun on this one?
 

sillystring

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Everyone is perfectly reasonable when it comes to purchasing, owning, licensing, registering and maintaining an automobile or other vehicle. I don't understand why the same logic cannot be applied to owning a firearm.

Anyone can own a vehicle but you cannot legally operate one if:

you are not licensed
you are mentally, or physically impaired
drunk
incapacitated
blind
etc.

No one is afraid of the government confiscating your car and it sits in your driveway.

This is insane.

I'm 100% with you on this, but no one on either side wants what it would take to do this correctly.

In the gun control thread post Aurora a discussion was put forth, by me, that in order to identify people who should not be allowed guns you should institute a HS or earlier level training program on firearm use, safety and maintenance.

Like a driver's education for guns and the laws governing them. Students who demonstrate willful disregard for safety, or who show violence/aggression would be sent over for psychiatric evaluation where they would either be barred access to firearms per existing laws governing mental health, or sent back to the gun education program for reevaluation.

Kids who pass can then take their certificates and apply for a gun license which allows them to purchase weapons from an FFL. What they purchase should not be identified, that's a slippery enough slope, but a minor ammo/gun tax could be floated to keep the program rolling. Ammo taxes already pay for the wildlife preserves throughout the US. Fish and Game runs that program.

Now, add in requirements for storage of the weapons (a safe) and add in a once every 3 year safety review class and license reissue, and you've got yourself a sustainable program that can run out of the DMV.

Is that a complete plan, no sir, but it's a way. Here's the thing you and I and everyone else who is wary of Government involvement, how do you prevent knee-jerk legislators from hijacking the program to institute their own version of a gun-free Utopia? The numbers alone show that US Citizens do not want that and it's a pipe dream whose only hope is in states like IL, CA and NY where gun owners have given an inch and lost everything in the process.

I don't think we should not try, I think we should not try what we already know doesn't work in this society. Respect for a thing and education about that thing are the only way to change a population's views.
 

Klingsor

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An interesting and intelligent plan, sillystring. Now, as with any proposed legislation, let's start amending it . . .

In the gun control thread post Aurora a discussion was put forth, by me, that in order to identify people who should not be allowed guns you should institute a HS or earlier level training program on firearm use, safety and maintenance.

This might not be a bad idea. But I would add the stipulation that, just like high school driving courses, firearm courses should be voluntary, not mandatory. Not everyone wants to drive, and not everyone wants to deal with guns.

Kids who pass can then take their certificates and apply for a gun license which allows them to purchase weapons from an FFL. What they purchase should not be identified, that's a slippery enough slope . . .

I'm sure this is a Second Amendment issue for you, but here again I would hold with the analogy of driving. If you have to register your vehicle with the state, surely the same should apply to your guns.
 
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B_underguy1

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Like a driver's education for guns and the laws governing them. Students who demonstrate willful disregard for safety, or who show violence/aggression would be sent over for psychiatric evaluation where they would either be barred access to firearms per existing laws governing mental health, or sent back to the gun education program for reevaluation.
.

There is no reliable test for sociopathy or psychopathy though.