Another uprising in Egypt

[Bardox]

So I've been watching coverage of some of the events in Egypt over the past few days. As many of you know (everyone should know by now) Egypt underwent a military coup (even if the US refuses to acknowledge it as a coup). Supporters of the ousted president and/or the muslim brotherhood have been holding protests against the military running things. This quickly turned violent and has been getting worse. Tear gas, fire fights, bombings, burning of churches, hundreds dead, untold number of wounded, generals (police and military) are replacing governors in the provinces, their VP resigned, and there are rumors that reporters covering this are themselves being targeted by snipers.

I'm just curious as to what thoughts you all have on this latest uprising.

 

[Petrolhead]

it's a complex problem and it shows up the real issue with islamists. having won a democratic election tgey were so concerned about writing sharia law into the constitution (and other islamist reforms) that they ignored egypt's other and more serious economic issues. they should have been charged with incompetence.

maybe it shows how countries that have been denied democracy need to be educated as to how to use their newfound powers.

however it is a sad and tragic situation there. and my best wishes go to any egyptian members on here. they will be the best people to contribute to this thread

 

[Baoka]

it's a complex problem and it shows up the real issue with islamists. having won a democratic election tgey were so concerned about writing sharia law into the constitution (and other islamist reforms) that they ignored egypt's other and more serious economic issues. they should have been charged with incompetence.

There's no question that Egypt's financial condition is poor, but I had understood that the public and military overthrew the last regime because the President took his election as a mandate to establish Islamic laws and break the fresh election cycle in an attempt to start his own dictatorship.

What economic troubles does Egypt experience besides high unemployment and exceptional unemployment among Egyptian youth?

 

[185248]

So I've been watching coverage of some of the events in Egypt over the past few days. As many of you know (everyone should know by now) Egypt underwent a military coup (even if the US refuses to acknowledge it as a coup). Supporters of the ousted president and/or the muslim brotherhood have been holding protests against the military running things. This quickly turned violent and has been getting worse. Tear gas, fire fights, bombings, burning of churches, hundreds dead, untold number of wounded, generals (police and military) are replacing governors in the provinces, their VP resigned, and there are rumors that reporters covering this are themselves being targeted by snipers.

I'm just curious as to what thoughts you all have on this latest uprising.

Was the person causing the trouble, did he have the name Moses? If so, Big Trouble In Little Egypt. Don't go near water tsunami warning....

http://youtu.be/cjI4p8_NZVc

I think the sand over there has soaked up enough blood from around the world. Ultimatum time.

 

[Pierced1953]

wonder if the 1.5 billion dollar check cleared and who cashed in on it. can we learn to mind our own business?

 

[cruztbone]

pierced 1953, you need to know that surrounding Arab nations contribute much more billions of dollars in aid to Egypt , every year , then we do.

Obama announced today that our joint army exercises with the Egyptian army , that were scheduled for september have been cancelled.

The Muslim brotherhood is adored by millions in the Arab world, but it is also HATED by millions in the Arab world , and that includes Egypt as well.

Morsi violated the new constitution by signing laws making him the only "decider" on issues that were previously shared ( much like what George W Bush did with many bills he signed into law with his RIDICULOUS signing statements).

Morsi has been visited by foreign leaders while in confinement. you will notice that Amnesty International and the Red Cross have both been quiet about his detention.

democracy will take a long time to work in Egypt. lets be patient.

 

[Dakota Kid]

Let them sort it out on their own.

Morsi violated the new constitution by signing laws making him the only "decider" on issues that were previously shared ( much like what Obama did with many bills he signed into law with his RIDICULOUS signing statements).

Corrected that for you, Crusty

 

[vince]

Let them sort it out on their own.


Corrected that for you, Crusty

I agree with you about letting them sort it out themselves. If outside "powers" would have kept their colonial noses out of other peoples affairs more often, we'd have a lot less historical fuck ups to live down today.

But your altering of Crusty's words is against the rules of the politics form. It's a form of trolling and you need to stop doing that.

Further, it's expected that users are mindful when quoting one another. Deliberately removing sections of quotes to mislead others or change (remove) the context, and added/changing quotes will also be met with moderator intervention.

 

[hsarge]

Al Quaeda is already infiltrating and recruiting disaffected elements of the Muslim Brotherhood. A campaign of car bombings and suicide bombings as well as attacks on western tourists will soon begin. As when this happened before, tourism will halt and the Egyptian economy will suffer greatly causing even more problems. A civil war between moderate Arabs and fundamentalists will result. The Egyptian Army is again trying to quash the fundamentalists, as it did after the the assassination of Sadat. This dichotomy is also occurring in Libya, Syria, and Iraq. The Arab Spring loosed the lid on a smoldering fight only held in check by the rule of the 'strong man' I.e. Qadaffi, Assad, and Mubarak.

 

[Drifterwood]

Democracy is flawed as you should already know. Sometimes people you don't like appeal to people you may think should not have a vote. Combined, they take control of your free life.

 

[Jason]

The unified political force in most Arab nations is a version of the Moslem Brotherhood. The opposition are badly split. The scenario everywhere is that elections will tend to elect Islamists, who will see imposition of sharia as a primary goal.

I think Egypt faces a very difficult transition - let's hope it is at least short. I see too possible outcomes:
1) The Moslem Brotherhood regain power. Sharia law will be imposed and true democracy suspended.
2) The army gain control and impose a general as dictator. There will be no true democracy.
Personally I favour (2) but I'm aware this is very close to a return to the old regime deposed in the Arab Spring.

 

[dandelion]

The situation in Egypt illustrates the problem with democracy. In the Uk we DO NOT have a robust system of democracy. Rather, a system which relies on good will and common interest by the political parties to keep it on the road. The only thing stopping the current Uk government from completely rewriting all the laws so they never have to be elected again is the consensus by all politicians to keep the system just as it is.

In light of that it is very interesting to consider just what would happen in the Uk if a party really did come to power and then start changing all the rules, as the duly elected government of Egypt seems to have been doing. I think those Uk politicians who this week have been deploring the action of the army is Egypt might themselves be supporting the UK army in doing exactly the same in the same situation here.

It is noticeable that in the UK where there was potential for a single issue party to sieze power, the electoral rules have been changed from those applying nationally to ensure a fairer result. The UK national government runs on winner takes all, whereas in Ireland, where they have historically resorted to the gun, there is proportional representation, and in the Scottish parliament too.

 

[Jason]

In the Uk we DO NOT have a robust system of democracy.

Agreed as far as parliamentary democracy goes. Though I would prefer to express it in terms of democracy needing to be embedded in society (as it is in the UK) rather than just in parliament. I think the West is wrong in thinking that in nations like Egypt and Iraq and Afghanistan it can simply drop in a parliamentary democracy system and it will work - it won't. Rather these nations need a generational transition to democracy. Maybe Egypt could function as a democracy in 30 years. Or maybe 60.

Arab nations need kings. They need someone appointed by the random process of birth and with a fair chance therefore of them being a decent human being. For that matter the UK needs a monarch as some form of check on our democracy. For example we do have a meaningful psychological check where the UK prime minister is hauled off to Buckingham Palace every week, is not offered a seat, and explains to the Queen what he is doing.

 

[RideRocket]

Morsi violated the new constitution by signing laws making him the only "decider" on issues that were previously shared ( much like what George W Bush did with many bills he signed into law with his RIDICULOUS signing statements).

But your altering of Crusty's words is against the rules of the politics form. It's a form of trolling and you need to stop doing that.

From your own link on your profile to the Forum rules, so is what crutzbone posted. His post could be considered 'trolling' as well.

"5. Behaviour
Trolling is not allowed. Trolling covers a vast array of behavior but mainly revolves around members who consistently post in a manner which they know will upset others, members who insist on going off topic to serve their own agenda (which has nothing to do with the topic at hand)"

Crutzbone's comment about Bush had equally no relevance to the topic at hand as did DakotaKid's altering of his post to reference Obama.

Let's be fair here in dishing out warnings, but let's also get back to the thread.

 

[vince]

From your own link on your profile to the Forum rules, so is what crutzbone posted. His post could be considered 'trolling' as well.

"5. Behaviour
Trolling is not allowed. Trolling covers a vast array of behavior but mainly revolves around members who consistently post in a manner which they know will upset others, members who insist on going off topic to serve their own agenda (which has nothing to do with the topic at hand)"

Crutzbone's comment about Bush had equally no relevance to the topic at hand as did DakotaKid's altering of his post to reference Obama.

Let's be fair here in dishing out warnings, but let's also get back to the thread.

The bulk of Crutzbone's post was on topic about events in Egypt and the part you are objecting to was an aside which compared the Egyptian president's behavior to that of another world leader.

I don't see why you need to get your pants in a knot over that small part of the post, but it is your right to do so and to report it as a rule violation.

 

[h0neymustard]

Here is to hoping the Egyptian army wipes out the MB.

 

[Drifterwood]

Here is to hoping the Egyptian army wipes out the MB.

Do you call yourself a Christian?

 

[h0neymustard]

Yep. What does that have to do with anything?

 

[Jason]

I do not see that democracy can work in Egypt right now. I think the best option available is for the army to establish full control. If this can be achieved quickly then Egypt can pull back from civil war and there is a way forward.

I think there is an issue throughout the Islamic world about the treatment of organisations such as the Moslem Brotherhood. Outlawing them, which seems to be what Egypt is trying to do and what Saudi Arabia has already done, might be the only realistic way forward. The shocking fact is that because they are united and with support from the mosques they will win democratic elections. Democracy is fine until the wrong people get elected. Europe saw this in 1930s Germany, and even the UK has seen it with the election of members of the IRA terrorist-sympathising Sinn Fein (now in power-sharing government in Northern Ireland). Bluntly there have to be checks on democracy.

 

[vince]

Organizations such as the Muslim Brotherhood can be suppressed, or outlawed, but they will not go away. They go underground and they commit acts of terror. Suppression always breeds resistance and eventually, revolutions. The MB has a deep well of support in Egypt because for something like 80 years during successive regimes of suppression and exploitation from the colonial power, the monarchy, Nassar, Sadat and Mubarek, they built schools, hospitals, mosques and ran a variety of charities that directly benefited the people. Meanwhile, the "leaders" of the country were more concerned with looting the economy and military misadventures. It's no wonder the Brotherhood won parliamentary elections in 2005 and the presidency after Mubarak. I think Morsi was a terrible President and politically stupid. But he should not have been thrown out of office. Democracy is very messy when there is no tradition of it. This coup d'etat has set back Egypt many many years.

Now there is talk that Mubarak maybe released soon. Coincidence?
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/20/world/middleeast/egypt.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0