Anti-Americanism

SteveHd

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This is for ital8. I'm 50 and I'll try to put anti-Americanism into a history context. First, it isn't new. It's at a maximum, little doubt about that, but it runs in cycles. It may subside in a few years, especially after we get out of Iraq, but it won't go away. It has existed for as long I can remember.

Get used to it. I don't mean that to be flippant or sarcastic. It's advice. I'm going guess that you'll live longer than me, so I'll say: It will exist for the rest of your life.

If the day arrives that anti-Americanism disappears and the whole world simply loves us I'll think, "Uh oh, something's wrong!" :smile:
 

D_Bob_Crotchitch

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Face it, if you are the wealthiest nation on earth, you'll be hated. Some of it was earned with ruthless business practices in underdeveloped nations. Some of it has been here for decades. I don't really care what Europe thinks of us. They haven't been able to get along. Twice we've had world wars that started there.
 

SpeedoGuy

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There's a lot of talk about anti-Americanism as if it were something new but a question arises:

Have Europeans, Canadians or Australians or anyone else ever actually liked the U.S., its citizens and its values? I mean, other than the few brief times when the U.S. helped defeat facist military forces and funded the reconstruction of shattered nations, has the U.S. ever really been admired or looked at as some kind of example to be emulated?

I ask this not to be sarcastic or patronizing. I know well that the U.S. is not seen as being all that popular now but was there ever a time when it was popular and why?
 

JustAsking

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Here is an interesting factoid. According to the organization Reporters Without Borders, the USA ranks 53rd in freedom of the press when compared to other countries.
 

SteveHd

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I ask this not to be sarcastic or patronizing. I know well that the U.S. is not seen as being all that popular now but was there ever a time when it was popular and why?
Popular? In isolated cases, it has happened. For instance after the Berlin Airlift, [then] West Berlin was very grateful we circumvented the blockade. So was [then] West Germany. The reason is self-explanatory.

On a worldwide scale, I can't think of an instance. Not even the immediate post WW-II period since two major powers were under occupation and that had to be unpleasant.
 

HazelGod

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Here is an interesting factoid. According to the organization Reporters Without Borders, the USA ranks 53rd in freedom of the press when compared to other countries.

When I first read about this some while back, I was skeptical to say the least.

Then I wondered why there is never any American media coverage of anyone protesting the administration...why I never see news clips or even still shots of angry, sign-waving folks whenever king george shows up to speak somewhere in the USA.

It almost smacked of a conspiracy to prevent the public from actually seeing the scope and fervor of our citizens' displeasure with the current leadership...until I discovered that such protest did exist, but was (quite sensibly, I might add) confined to designated "free speech zones" for the dissidents' own safety. How solicitously thoughtful of the president to go out of his way to do that for them!

Land of the free, indeed. :rolleyes:
 

blackbottom2

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Five years after the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001, "Islamophobia" -- intensified by the war in Iraq and U.S. government actions at home – has left millions of American Muslims fearful of harassment, discrimination, and questionable prosecutions, and confused about their place in American society.

Recent polls indicate that almost half of Americans have a negative perception of Islam and that one in four of those surveyed have "extreme" anti-Muslim views. A survey by the Council on American Islamic Relations (CAIR) found that a quarter of Americans consistently believe stereotypes such as: "Muslims value life less than other people" and "The Muslim religion teaches violence and hatred." In 2005, CAIR received 1,972 civil rights complaints, compared to 1,522 in 2004. This constitutes a 29.6 percent increase in the total number of complaints of anti-Muslim harassment, violence and discriminatory treatment from 2004.

What is the impact on Muslims and other Americans of Arab descent? One, who spoke on condition of anonymity, told IPS, "It sometimes feels suffocating being in the US now. We cannot turn on our TV in the evening to watch CNN or MSNBC or the other ‘news stations' because of people like Glenn Beck and others who consistently spew hate, nonsense and misinformation about Islam and Arabs on primetime. And if we try to watch mindless drama on TV we are bombarded with shows about Middle East/Arab and Islamic terrorism -- shows like 24, Sleeper Cell, The Agency, etc. It is very difficult being an Arab/Muslim American these days."

Following 9/11, the U.S. Department of Justice began rounding up Arabs and other Muslims and – mistakenly – anybody who looked "Middle Eastern," including Sikhs from South Asia. In the months after the attacks, some 5,000 men were held in detention without charges, most without access to lawyers or family members. As confirmed in an investigation by the DOJ Inspector-General, many were held in solitary confinement and physically abused.

There were no prosecutions and no convictions of any of these people. Some, who were in the U.S. with expired visas or who had committed other immigration infractions, were deported.

Since then, the seemingly endless catalog of harassment and infringements on the civil rights of U.S. citizens has grown unabated. A few examples:

Ahmad Al Halabi graduated from high school in Dearborn, Michigan, the center of the nation's Muslim community. He joined the Air Force and was assigned as a translator for al-Qaeda suspects at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba. He was accused of spying and spent 10 months in solitary confinement before the spy charges were dropped.

Osama Abulhassan and Ali Houssaiky, both 20 and from Dearborn, were charged with supporting terrorism in Marietta, Ohio, in August after making bulk purchases of cheap, prepaid cell phones from discount stores. The charges were dropped a week later.

Four men were accused after the 9/11 attacks of being part of a "sleeper cell" that was planning terrorist attacks. Two of the men were convicted of conspiring to provide material support and resources to terrorists, but a federal judge overturned the verdicts at the Justice Department's request in 2004 because prosecutors withheld evidence at the trial that could have helped the defendants.

Farooq Al-Fatlawi, a bus passenger en route to Chicago, was put off with his bags in Toledo, Ohio, after he told the driver he was from Iraq.

A San Francisco Bay Area civil rights activist, Raed Jarrar, was barred from a plane for wearing a T-shirt that said, "We will not be silent" in Arabic and English.

Often cited as "Islamophobia Exhibit A," Canadian Muslim Maher Arar, was abducted by U.S. officials at Kennedy airport in New York in 2002, and then transported to a prison in Syria where he was confined for more than 10 months in a cell that looked like a grave. He was beaten, tortured, and forced to make a false confession about having ties to Al Qaeda. A Canadian commission of inquiry ruled after a two-year investigation that all the charges were unfounded. But Arar was barred from suing the U.S. Government, which claimed that a trial would divulge "state secrets."

The U.S. government agreed to pay $2 million and issue a written apology to a Muslim attorney in Oregon who was jailed after the FBI mistakenly linked him to the Madrid train bombings. Brandon Mayfield sued the FBI, alleging that his civil rights had been violated and that he was arrested in part because he is a Muslim convert.

Fox television's hit drama '24' portrayed an American Muslim family as being at the heart of a terrorist 'sleeper cell.' A spokeswoman for CAIR said the show was 'taking everyday American Muslim families and making them suspects."

When Keith Ellison, the first Muslim elected to Congress, announced that he was planning to take a ceremonial oath of office on a Qur'an, right-wing radio and Internet bloggers went into high paranoia mode. Oh my God, talk show host Dennis Prager fumed, Ellison can't be allowed to do that; it "undermines American civilization."

The American Family Association (AFA), a conservative religious group, posted an "Action Alert" on its Web site requesting that supporters urge lawmakers to pass "What book will America base its values on, the Bible or the Koran?" the AFA said.

The U.S. Treasury Department, in its efforts to cut off financing for radical Islamic organizations, has used a provision of the Patriot Act to designate charities that support Muslim causes as terrorist organizations. Once a charitable organization is designated as a supporter of terrorism, all of its materials and property may be seized and its assets frozen. Thus far, the effort has resulted in the government shutting down five charities. But there has only been one indictment, no trials, and no convictions. Only one official criminal charge has been brought against a Muslim organization for support of terrorism, and that case has not yet made it to trial. Three months ago, Federal agents raided the offices of one of the nation's largest Islamic charities, Life for Relief and Development. Agents seized computers and donor records. But no charges have been filed and the charity remains in business.

While many American Muslims serve in the U.S. Armed Forces, they have less luck trying to get jobs in the civilian agencies involved in national security. When the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI), the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA), and the Department of Homeland Security (DHS) when on a recruiting binge to find and hire new analysts and translators, many Arab-Americans and other American Muslims came forward and applied. But they have met with little success because they are frequently denied security clearances on grounds that they have friends and family back in the Middle East.

This kind of post-9/11 hysteria is not limited to the U.S. In Britain, which has suffered from terrorist attacks, Member of Parliament and former Foreign Secretary Jack Straw suggested that his female Muslim constituents remove their face-covering veils so that he could better interact with them. And attempts by the British government to engage with the Muslim community since last year's bomb attacks in London have reportedly backfired and are not hampering the spread of extremism. A report by the think-tank Demos said, "Instead of isolating extremist elements, government initiatives had tended to ‘drive a wedge' between the Muslim population and the wider community."

In the Netherlands, once thought to be the most open and tolerant society in Europe, the center-right government promised it would introduce legislation to ban the wearing of burqas and other facial coverings in most public places, including courts, schools, trains and even streets.

France, rocked last summer by riots in poor Paris suburbs largely inhabited by North African and Middle Eastern immigrants, has already banned the wearing of headscarves by students in public schools. And Nicolas Sarkozy, a government minister expected to be a leading candidate for the country's presidency, has taken a hard line on both immigration and France's large Muslim population. He says he refuses Islam "IN France" but claims to endorse "an Islam OF France."

In the U.S., the government acknowledges the complaints of American Arabs and Muslims. Daniel Sutherland, head of the civil rights division of the Department of Homeland Security, says fighting terrorism while respecting civil rights involves "difficult challenges."

But Sutherland says the government needs the help of these groups to fight terrorism at home: "Homeland security isn't gonna be won by people sitting in a building inside the Beltway, " he says.

But most members of that community believe that the government is – perhaps inadvertently -- fanning the flames of bigotry by using phrases like "Islamo-Fascist" from the vocabulary it has crafted for the "Global War on Terror" and by actions such as high-profile press conferences announcing prosecutions that often collapse.

Samer Shehata, professor of Arab Politics at Georgetown University, probably speaks for the feeling in the most of the U.S. Muslim community, "Quite simply," he told IPS, Islamophobia "produces an environment that is fundamentally at odds with what the U.S. is supposed to be about; our values for treating everyone fairly and not discriminating on the basis of skin color, race, religion, gender, etc."

Prof. Shehata adds, "This is damaging certainly for all Americans and it is also damaging for the reputation of the U.S. overseas. One of the questions I hear the most whenever I am in Egypt and other parts of the Middle East is: how is it like now in the U.S. for Arabs? Have you been the victim of discrimination, bigotry, abuse?"
 

eddyabs

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I agree that the tune and words of the US anthem are the worst of any I have heard. It was origonally 'Anacreon in heaven' an 18th century english drinking song. (Anacreon was a classical greek poet who wrote of getting drunk and loving boys)

Well there's something new! The US anthem was based on an English 18th century drinking song...now that's far out! Thanks to you I learned something new today Kalipygian.

On the subject of this thread....I really like the Americans I have met when I have travelled to the States...made some great friends, had some GREAT times...I find the Yanks I met anyway, the most Human of strangers, warm, welcoming, sincere and kind.

America is just so big, a whole continent, and it's hardly surprising that only 10 percent of Americans hold a passport...why bother to travel? There is everything and more for them, in such a vast and actually beautiful continent...... though of course, there is the REST of the world, with all it's history, culture, language, and it's beauty.

I find myself talking to many Americans online, maybe on the xbox playing Uno, or in chat rooms, or on Skype calling my mates in Americaland....and what keeps coming up is the fact that they just DON'T travel outside of the US...I haven't met 1 yank online yet who holds a passport....this is very upsetting to me, I WANT them to travel, to go see Egypt, the amazing Nile.....the Sinai Desert...I had an unforgettable 2 day horseriding there (found myself humming the 'Lawrence of Arabia' tune in my head pretty much the whole two days lol). What about Greece with it's 2000 + beautiful islands....Turkey, Morocco....ITALY!!! BELLO! And so so many more different places and cultures to immerse oneself in...absorb, LOSE yourself. To feel the magic of being a stranger in a strange land...how can anyone live a whole life and deny oneself this pleasure? This I find particularly difficult to comprehend.

So....I feel that Americans...who let us not forget have offered the world so many positive things...it is always a Human trait to focus on the negative....I feel that Americans should travel more, maybe to understand the world they live in a little more, to stop looking inward so much...drop those shackles...LIVE a little. TRAVEL!!! PLEASE!!! I beg of you with the kindest intent.

Is it any surprise that American foreign policy sucks so much....thus is it any wonder that Americans receive so much hate in todays world?

Gawd Bless You All.
 

chico8

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I am not a nationalistic type, but I am aware of Ireland's economic revival, much of which has to do with its ties with the US.

My, my, another American who needs to believe that the economic success or failure of any particular country is totally dependent upon the US.

Ireland's success is due to two things. First, the EU. Second, the decline in the power of the Catholic Church. The US has nothing to do with it.
 

eddyabs

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Now you've met one. And I travel out of the country regularly, including to the UK.

Thanks for your kind words.

If I knew you, that would be awesome to hear lol!! I am trying to persuade my American friend Logan to travel here...he keeps saying 'but it's such a long way!'....I say, 'well I made the damn effort to come and see you twice!'. Then he says 'but I haven't got a passport!'...!!!!! I give up!

If you ever fancy Tea when you come to the UK...you are welcome to drop by speedoguy, I make an awesome cuppa!! :wink:
 

meatpackingbubba

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I don't know about the hatred that foreign nationals have for the U.S., but judging from many of the postings on this thread, there are plenty of self-loathing Americans present.

My guess is many have not taken the time to vote since the system is "rigged", and that all evils are caused by "those people", and that the thought of writing their congressman or senator would be a "waste of time", and of course, the perennial favorite "but what can I do about it?"

Get off your fat asses and make something happen is what you can do if you think things are so fucked up. Join with others; your voice alone is not enough to make a change, and don't give up because you want to go have a latte or watch some jackoff reality show. And another novel idea: before you proclaim the absolute rightness of your position, it would be nice if you would examine more that just the propaganda with which you feel most comfortable.

NOW, before all hell breaks loose, let me tell you something about my thoughts: George Bush has been an incompetent failure; our nation has many shortcomings and faces many challenges; the esteem with which our country is held is at an all-time low throughout the world; our history is littered with many things for which we can be rightly ashamed.

We also have much to be proud about: our intentions are usually admirable; our economy is one of the most dynamic in the world; the level of personal freedom in this country sets the standard for most of the world; our innovations have driven a remarkable rise in world living standards.

Are things perfect? Of course not. But it is important to focus on more than just the negative and also important to recognize that even with shortcomings we have a lot for which to be grateful and much that we do not want to lose due to self-inflicted wounds.
 

meatpackingbubba

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If you ever fancy Tea when you come to the UK...you are welcome to drop by speedoguy, I make an awesome cuppa!! :wink:


I love drinking tea, Eddy. You make a strong cup of English Breakfast tea? I take lemon, not milk.

Meet me at the Savoy....tea will be on me.
 

eddyabs

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I love drinking tea, Eddy. You make a strong cup of English Breakfast tea? I take lemon, not milk.

Meet me at the Savoy....tea will be on me.

Hey Bubba...I make a fantastic cup of English Breakfast tea.....I tend to use plain old Assam for breakfast tea....have a butchers at this for more info on my tea making abilities extraordinaire...Cup of Cha at Eddys.

I'll meet you at the Savoy, and errr...can we get a room after? :rolleyes:
 

meatpackingbubba

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Blackbottom, the incidents you detail are indeed heinous. Fortunately, as you also detail, at least some of the victims were able to obtain justice. This is still one of the hallmarks of our system of government for which to be grateful.

Somewhere in this thread was a remark about religious fundamentalism. In my opinion, all of them, whether Christian, Jewish, or Islamic, are a threat to world civilization as we know it because they all hold positions that are intolerant in the extreme and are hateful of others who do not share their beliefs, and justify it all in the name of God. False prophets indeed.
 

eddyabs

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Somewhere in this thread was a remark about religious fundamentalism. In my opinion, all of them, whether Christian, Jewish, or Islamic, are a threat to world civilization as we know it because they all hold positions that are intolerant in the extreme and are hateful of others who do not share their beliefs, and justify it all in the name of God. False prophets indeed.

Totally with you there....I'm with old Sir Elton as well, he got his wig in a frenzy again recently, had a tantrum and spit out that...'all organised religion should be banned!'....ROCK ON ELT!
 

meatpackingbubba

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Hey Bubba...I make a fantastic cup of English Breakfast tea.....I tend to use plain old Assam for breakfast tea....have a butchers at this for more info on my tea making abilities extraordinaire...Cup of Cha at Eddys.

I'll meet you at the Savoy, and errr...can we get a room after? :rolleyes:

Only two to five cups a day? You're a lightweight, Edward....Big Bubba has that much by noon. On a recent trip to fabulous Italy I picked up an espresso habit while travelling on the autostrada. The wife has to take a leak every fifteen minutes, so that is about the intervals between my shots of espresso. Man, I did FLY along. Fortunately I don't drink it daily, but when I do it's usually about 4 to 5 doubles in a row. I am a bit obsessive compulsive with addictive personality to boot...lol....and I do like the kick I get, assuming the heart holds out. Almost like a snort of cocaine, if I remember properly (that was years ago kids, and not recommended behavior)

As for the room, I was planning on having one in advance of tea, but since you suggest WE get one, I suppose your offer to SHARE in the cost would help in defraying the substantial nightly tarriff.

;-)~
 

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George Bush isn't helping the reputation of the USA. In fact I don't think Americans were thought of as stupid, ignorant (etc) before he was democratically elected? But I could be wrong. Still, he is a bad representative.

I wouldn't say many people I know are anti-American in any violent sense but I've heard a fair few jokes about Americans in my time. Jeremy Clarkson (who I don't like) makes a lot of jokes about Americans FYI.

PS I know a lot of the Americans here are very intelligent and decent people. You just musn't be very common or else there'd be a different man in the White House?

Peace.