Any Al gore Kook Aid drinkers still believe in Global Warming?

JustAsking

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It does not mean everything is correct though, as science constantly evolves, learns and adapts. Thirty years from now they could have a completely different reason for why global warming is occurring.

Remember when 8 glasses of water a day was the recommendation? Turns out that changed and it actually wasn't, things like that show how it can change.

And String Theory with the Standard model is theoretical physics, something I couldn't possibly care less about :)

Oh yes, I completely agree. All scientific theories are considered to be provisional and will be improved or replaced on the finding of new evidence. The point is, though, that the only thing that improves or replaces a scientific theory is more science done within the professional scientific community. In fact, this is the goal and daily activity of scientists which is to push the state of the art of theories so as to refine or perhaps replace them with more useful ones.

And this professional community aspect to science is not because they are snobs. Its because there is no other way to determine the veracity of any scientific finding or theoretical conclusion except through its independent verification and useful application by other professionals. And even with that, it doesn't mean anything until it is published in painstaking detail in professional journals so others can critique, reproduce, and eventually apply it in their own work.

As to your interest or non-interest in String theory, my point is that interest is not sufficient for any one of us laymen to further the state of the art of highly complex scientific fields. For example, you might be interested in the science of AGW, but your opinion about it can only be a kind of wildass gut level feeling. You and I don't have the background for actually judging the science of AGW. I have a degree in Physics, but even that doesn't prepare me for the highly complex field of climatology.

In fact, enough time has gone by since I studied Physics and then moved on to careers in other fields that I am not even qualified to pass judgement on the state of the art of Physics these days.

So yes, medical science thought we needed 8 glasses of water per day until they improved their findings and conclusions. But it was more medical science that revised the 8 glasses notion, not people like you and I discussing it on the Internet.

Edit: Here is a good example. All the fuss lately on these BBC articles have to do with the contribution of periodic oscillations in the ocean temperatures that take place over one or two decades that sometimes overwhelm and obscure the centuries long trend of warming that the climate models predict. Here is a paper on the subject written as a quick overview of the problem. It doesn't actually go into the science of these oscillation, but rather it talks about the need for understanding them and refining our climate models to accomodate them. Given the jargon even in this lightweight article, and all the references to past work by others, that none of us are familiar with, how would you and I judge the veracity of this simple article?
 
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B_VinylBoy

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No offense but you obviously didn't read my post, and anecdotal evidence doesn't really account for much.

Re-Read what I said and you'll see your second paragraph doesn't really make any sense towards it.

"Originally Posted by MercyfulFate
Plus some elements of the green movement are a joke, like carbon credits for example. I'm all for getting into alternative energy and finding cleaner, more enviro-friendly ways to dispose of waste and live our lives. However, things like carbon credits imposed on individuals (not quite imposed, it's voluntary) and businesses will just be a joke."

No, I did read your second paragraph and I really didn't have anything to say in response to it. However, if you want one...

Whether or not you feel as if Carbon Credits are a joke really doesn't help this discussion about the existence of global warming. There's bound to be suggestions & policies in coherence with living a "green lifestyle" that will seem quite foolish. Nobody is saying that you have to do everything. For instance, telling people not to eat meat... as if that's going to happen anytime soon. I know I haven't stopped. Hell, I had a steak sandwich this evening for dinner. But does that mean that we should all just ignore it? Does that mean we should point fingers at those who do find it to be a worthy suggestion to their way of life?

However, I did want to share with you something regarding your first one. You stated, "I'm not convinced it's entirely man-made, and if we have an impact on it it wouldn't be that huge."

So I gave you an example illustrating man-made change, but for the better. I mean, come on... if you want someone to focus on one issue, don't provide so many in your posts! :wink:
 

MercyfulFate

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Oh yes, I completely agree. All scientific theories are considered to be provisional and will be improved or replaced on the finding of new evidence. The point is, though, that the only thing that improves or replaces a scientific theory is more science done within the professional scientific community. In fact, this is the goal and daily activity of scientists which is to push the state of the art of theories so as to refine or perhaps replace them with more useful ones.

And this professional community aspect to science is not because they are snobs. Its because there is no other way to determine the veracity of any scientific finding or theoretical conclusion except through its independent verification and useful application by other professionals. And even with that, it doesn't mean anything until it is published in painstaking detail in professional journals so others can critique, reproduce, and eventually apply it in their own work.

As to your interest or non-interest in String theory, my point is that interest is not sufficient for any one of us laymen to further the state of the art of highly complex scientific fields. For example, you might be interested in the science of AGW, but your opinion about it can only be a kind of wildass gut level feeling. You and I don't have the background for actually judging the science of AGW. I have a degree in Physics, but even that doesn't prepare me for the highly complex field of climatology.

In fact, enough time has gone by since I studied Physics and then moved on to careers in other fields that I am not even qualified to pass judgement on the state of the art of Physics these days.

So yes, medical science thought we needed 8 glasses of water per day until they improved their findings and conclusions. But it was more medical science that revised the 8 glasses notion, not people like you and I discussing it on the Internet.

Like I said, the consensus constantly alluded to is something I can't seem to find if I try.

Is there a majority that believe global warming is happening? Yes.

Is there a majority that believe we've caused it beyond a doubt? I need to see this, that's the point.

Since we're being asked to change our lives, and constantly panic by the media and high profile politicians and climatologists, it needs to be shown to us. I don't need to have a degree in it as I do in business, but it needs to be shown.

You don't just say "Hey we're scientists, trust us" and leave it at that.

No, I did read your second paragraph and I really didn't have anything to say in response to it. However, if you want one...

Whether or not you feel as if Carbon Credits are a joke really doesn't help this discussion about the existence of global warming. There's bound to be suggestions & policies in coherence with living a "green lifestyle" that will seem quite foolish. Nobody is saying that you have to do everything. For instance, telling people not to eat meat... as if that's going to happen anytime soon. I know I haven't stopped. Hell, I had a steak sandwich this evening for dinner. But does that mean that we should all just ignore it? Does that mean we should point fingers at those who do find it to be a worthy suggestion to their way of life?

However, I did want to share with you something regarding your first one. You stated, "I'm not convinced it's entirely man-made, and if we have an impact on it it wouldn't be that huge."

So I gave you an example illustrating man-made change, but for the better. I mean, come on... if you want someone to focus on one issue, don't provide so many in your posts! :wink:

Thing is you went after something I didn't say, while providing an anecdote for something I said I'm not convinced of. Smelling the air in a city isn't even close to what I'm asking for. Also, it wasn't about man-made change in the context of correcting pollution, it's about us causing global warming.

So I ask again for the proof to convince me it is man made.
 
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tripod

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Remember when 8 glasses of water a day was the recommendation? Turns out that changed and it actually wasn't, things like that show how it can change.

Kidney specialists say that we need a bare minimum of 4 glasses a day to replace what we excrete through the kidneys on average. There is also the fluid that we release through sweating and bowel movements.

Water requirements are also greatly increased in many humans that eat large amounts of protein which includes most everybody in the Western world. Tell someone that gets kidney stones to drink less water and that they are stupid to do drink 8+ glasses a day and you will get punched square in the face.

It's funny that the same assholes that deny global warming also deny that we need 8 glasses of water a day. Hmmm... and they're also the same douchebags that think that trans fats are as healthy as any other fat.

Here's some facts for you to consider before you parrot the next science debunker:

Dehydration is a major cause of infant illness and death throughout the world and hospitalization for the elderly.

It is very difficult to drink too much water... it is rather painful. But, it is DANGEROUS to drink too little.

Water will be taken from blood volume during the first hours of water deprivation.

A reduced blood volume is the most common mechanism producing hypotension.

Athletic performance can drop by as much as 20 - 30% if you lose as little as 4% of your body's water during exercise.

Water losses of 9-12% total body weight can be fatal.
 

SilverTrain

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Like I said, the consensus constantly alluded to is something I can't seem to find if I try.

Is there a majority that believe global warming is happening? Yes.

Is there a majority that believe we've caused it beyond a doubt? I need to see this, that's the point.

The important query is whether, given that it is happening, we can positively affect the situation by changing our behaviors. VinylBoy's post about driving green cars in Japan is an example of humans taking positive action to combat the trend. So, arguing about how much of it is "human-caused", while of some import, is not the ultitmate inquiry. It's a convenient distraction, though, for those that want to avoid talking about solutions.
 

Guy-jin

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Like I said, the consensus constantly alluded to is something I can't seem to find if I try.

Is there a majority that believe global warming is happening? Yes.

Is there a majority that believe we've caused it beyond a doubt? I need to see this, that's the point.

Since we're being asked to change our lives, and constantly panic by the media and high profile politicians and climatologists, it needs to be shown to us. I don't need to have a degree in it as I do in business, but it needs to be shown.

You don't just say "Hey we're scientists, trust us" and leave it at that.

They don't.

There is a plethora of freely available research supporting the fact that humans are contributing significantly to increases in global CO2 and increased temperatures.

Al Gore even felt strongly enough about it after years of discussing it with climatologists to make it a primary issue during his years as a politician and later to make a slideshow and film advocating it and educating about it.

And then, people who, for whatever reason, do not like him, characterize him as a "kook" and claim that he's the mastermind of some conspiracy that conveniently has every accredited climatologist in its pocket making up false data to back up his claims.

So let's not make up this farce of an argument that the information is impossible for you to find. We both know you can use the Internet. So use it. It's your choice to disbelieve "An Inconvenient Truth" in spite of the fact that Gore made it incredibly easy for you to trace down his sources via the 'net.



Deniers on this issue remind me of that group of anti-vaccination people. They actually, genuinely believe that vaccines cause Autism in spite of the fact that there has never been a scientific studying proving it. They actually believe all doctors pushing vaccines are getting kickbacks from the companies that make the vaccines, and that they're all so morally corrupt that they're willing to risk giving children Autism for said kickbacks. Ironically, the single study that the entire vaccines-Autism link came out of turned out to be falsified data that the author used to further his own career.

Point is, people believe what they want because they want to, not for lack of information being available or because scientists are all too aloof to come down to earth and explain things to "we mere mortals".

(In fact, as a scientist, I take offense at such an implication--I, for one, struggle to explain my work to laymen in terms they'll understand without coming across as "aloof". If I didn't care about laymen understanding my work, I wouldn't bother, but I absolutely do care about it.)
 

SpeedoGuy

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(In fact, as a scientist, I take offense at such an implication--I, for one, struggle to explain my work to laymen in terms they'll understand without coming across as "aloof". If I didn't care about laymen understanding my work, I wouldn't bother, but I absolutely do care about it.)

Well said.

Exactly the same here.
 

MercyfulFate

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Kidney specialists say that we need a bare minimum of 4 glasses a day to replace what we excrete through the kidneys on average. There is also the fluid that we release through sweating and bowel movements.

Water requirements are also greatly increased in many humans that eat large amounts of protein which includes most everybody in the Western world. Tell someone that gets kidney stones to drink less water and that they are stupid to do drink 8+ glasses a day and you will get punched square in the face.

It's funny that the same assholes that deny global warming also deny that we need 8 glasses of water a day. Hmmm... and they're also the same douchebags that think that trans fats are as healthy as any other fat.

Here's some facts for you to consider before you parrot the next science debunker:

Dehydration is a major cause of infant illness and death throughout the world and hospitalization for the elderly.

It is very difficult to drink too much water... it is rather painful. But, it is DANGEROUS to drink too little.

Water will be taken from blood volume during the first hours of water deprivation.

A reduced blood volume is the most common mechanism producing hypotension.

Athletic performance can drop by as much as 20 - 30% if you lose as little as 4% of your body's water during exercise.

Water losses of 9-12% total body weight can be fatal.

Wow, did you really post this? As someone who has had more than a few kidney stones, it's funny actually.

Also, you obviously didn't understand what I was saying at all, or what I meant by it. It was an example of how science constantly learns and updates past conclusions.

Furthermore I think you just went off a preconceived argument that wasn't really made as well.
 

B_bigbanana

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The worst part about being deceived is that you don't know you are deceived. Lot of you on here seem to rely heavily on your intellectual knowledge (which is fine), but you don't seem to have the common sense that the planet is NOT getting warmer. The facts are out there to dis-prove global warming more than to prove. I'm not selling Al Gore short by any means. He is very smart because he played lots of people for gullible fools and his bank account is full because. So yes Al Gore is smart but not the kind you could trust. Do you really think Al Gore cares about global warming or just how the 'idea' is helping his wallet. Swallow our pride and realize we've been duped.
Weigh everything with bias not emotional angry one-sided thinking. Common sense says don't believe everything you hear including global warming. It's baloney. Prove me wrong. The 'proof' has to be more than just a few scientists by the way. There are a lot of scientists out there. If you try to prove me wrong it just proves my point that the issue goes deeper than environment and goes into your politics. Then you take it personal because most peoiple are basing their beliefs off of politics and want they want to hear instead of what they need to hear. Politics is nothing but personal and selfish. And if you think politics is helping the world then you are not as smart as you think you are. Because politics is destroying the world with every 'treaty' we make, every argument that gets nowhere, and every word we speak.
 

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vince

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The worst part about being deceived is that you don't know you are deceived. Lot of you on here seem to rely heavily on your intellectual knowledge (which is fine), but you don't seem to have the common sense that the planet is NOT getting warmer. The facts are out there to dis-prove global warming more than to prove. I'm not selling Al Gore short by any means. He is very smart because he played lots of people for gullible fools and his bank account is full because. So yes Al Gore is smart but not the kind you could trust. Do you really think Al Gore cares about global warming or just how the 'idea' is helping his wallet. Swallow our pride and realize we've been duped.
Weigh everything with bias not emotional angry one-sided thinking. Common sense says don't believe everything you hear including global warming. It's baloney. Prove me wrong. The 'proof' has to be more than just a few scientists by the way. There are a lot of scientists out there. If you try to prove me wrong it just proves my point that the issue goes deeper than environment and goes into your politics. Then you take it personal because most peoiple are basing their beliefs off of politics and want they want to hear instead of what they need to hear. Politics is nothing but personal and selfish. And if you think politics is helping the world then you are not as smart as you think you are. Because politics is destroying the world with every 'treaty' we make, every argument that gets nowhere, and every word we speak.
You should look in a mirror and read that to yourself. Do you have "proof" that Gore lined his pockets? Or are you just repeating stuff you have heard that supports your point of view? Likewise with climate change. Where is your proof that it is "baloney". Which scientists?

I think you are a perfect example of people hearing what they want and rejecting out of hand what takes them out their comfort zone.

I don't think climate change is caused by human activity either. I think with can all agree that it is a natural cycle of the planet. We know this from the geological records. What science has shown is that the rate of change is accelerating and that pollution by humans is likely a large part of the equation. What we are doing may be tipping the climate over the edge.

Blaming Al Gore for anything is ludicrous. Wake up. People have been talking about this since the 1970's or before.
 

faceking

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Sheeple in tow... "scientists".


They don't.

There is a plethora of freely available research supporting the fact that humans are contributing significantly to increases in global CO2 and increased temperatures.

Al Gore even felt strongly enough about it after years of discussing it with climatologists to make it a primary issue during his years as a politician and later to make a slideshow and film advocating it and educating about it.

And then, people who, for whatever reason, do not like him, characterize him as a "kook" and claim that he's the mastermind of some conspiracy that conveniently has every accredited climatologist in its pocket making up false data to back up his claims.

So let's not make up this farce of an argument that the information is impossible for you to find. We both know you can use the Internet. So use it. It's your choice to disbelieve "An Inconvenient Truth" in spite of the fact that Gore made it incredibly easy for you to trace down his sources via the 'net.



Deniers on this issue remind me of that group of anti-vaccination people. They actually, genuinely believe that vaccines cause Autism in spite of the fact that there has never been a scientific studying proving it. They actually believe all doctors pushing vaccines are getting kickbacks from the companies that make the vaccines, and that they're all so morally corrupt that they're willing to risk giving children Autism for said kickbacks. Ironically, the single study that the entire vaccines-Autism link came out of turned out to be falsified data that the author used to further his own career.

Point is, people believe what they want because they want to, not for lack of information being available or because scientists are all too aloof to come down to earth and explain things to "we mere mortals".

(In fact, as a scientist, I take offense at such an implication--I, for one, struggle to explain my work to laymen in terms they'll understand without coming across as "aloof". If I didn't care about laymen understanding my work, I wouldn't bother, but I absolutely do care about it.)
 

faceking

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A general, and now perhaps wise observation I've made...

The most ardent global warming fanatics (and granted many of you are at this point... a la Manhattan under water inside of 40 years... you saaid it not me).... are also the most atheist anti-religious ppl I know.

The parallels are becoming astounding... an unseen devil, challenging the "status quo" (I borrowed that one from big eared Barrah), heresy to challenge, the money going to the "earth is flat attitude", practically imprisonment for those who don't abide (a la stiff fines, when the whole subject is beyond debatable).

It's becoming more and more religion, for the non-religious...

Now blah blah blah, there will be a bunch of "I believe in God" responses, just to counter my take, but me knows that those same ppl spend their cerebral energy lambasting religion more oft than not with their left hand, and going green with their right hand.

Gore is a hack... props to him as a businessman. He scored now .. what 200 Million on a phoney Y2K premise, but this time with no deadline.. he'll be dead in 40 years, the global carbon output WILL go up between now and then, and Manhattan will be high and dry... and libtards will go back to the "next Ice Age" bullshit we were all fed in the 70s.

Pick a fucking lane, Danica.
 

B_Nick8

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Wow, did you really post this? As someone who has had more than a few kidney stones, it's funny actually.

Although I find the term offensive, it should be pointed out that in some circles, and for some people, they're called brain-farts.
 

tripod

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Wow, did you really post this? As someone who has had more than a few kidney stones, it's funny actually.

Go ahead and drink less then 8 glasses then, I don't give a fuck what happens to ya.

It was an example of how science constantly learns and updates past conclusions.

Your example was stupid plain and simple, I pointed that out and you still don't see it.

Science constantly learns and updates past conclusions? Jesus Christ, I had no idea! :eek:

Gee... what other pearls of 5th grade science do you have for us all?

What are you gonna tell us next? Maybe you should share the contents of an atom with us...

Suck it Queen Diamond.
 

JustAsking

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... and libtards will go back to the "next Ice Age" bullshit we were all fed in the 70s.

Pick a fucking lane, Danica.

I believe in God, by the way. President of my church council, as a matter of fact.

Anyway, I just wanted to point out who is drinking kool-aid here vis-a-vis your "Ice Age warning in the 70s" talking point.

Climate modeling takes monstrous amounts of computing power. Your computer alone probably has more computing power than existed on the planet in 1970. Not to mention the fact that weather satellites and other technologies that create the data for models were nothing like they are now. So it is no surprise that none of the organizations of professional climatologists were making any definite predictions in the early 1970s. In fact the National Academy of Science position in 1975 was still in its speculative stage. Quotes from their report at the time:


Introductory quote:
"Climatic change has been a subject of intellectual interest for many years. However, there are now more compelling reasons for its study: the growing awareness that our economic and social stability is profoundly influenced by climate and that man's activities themselves may be capable of influencing the climate in possibly undesirable ways. The climates of the earth have always been changing, and they will doubtless continue to do so in the future. How large these future changes will be, and where and how rapidly they will occur, we do not know".

Another introductory quote about the conclusion of the NAS in the article abstract:
"...we do not have a good quantitative understanding of our climate machine and what determines its course. Without the fundamental understanding, it does not seem possible to predict climate...".

On the creation of models and simulations:
"The attack on this problem is in its infancy. ... Efforts to assemble such models [Coupled GCMs [WMC]] are just getting under way...".

The possible effects of CO2:
"Again, however, it is only through the use of adequately calibrated numerical models that we can hope to acquire the information necessary for a quantitave assessment of the cliatic impacts."

On possible Ice Age:
"The question remains unresolved. If the end of the interglacial is episodic in character, we are moving toward a rather sudden climatic change of unknown timing, although as each 100 years passes, we have perhaps a 5% greater chance of encountering its onset If, on the other hand, these changes are more sinusiondal in character, then the climate should decline gradually over a period of thousands of years. .... These climatic projections, however, could be replaced by quite different future climatic scenarios due to man's inadvertent interference with the otherwise natural variation...

The interglacial period is now thought to be much longer than 10,000 years.

Remember, the above quotes represented the uncertain science that existed in the 70s. No professional science organization was producing anything more definite than this in those days.


Now let's look at the NAS's current position:
"there is now strong evidence that significant global warming is occurring... It is likely that most of the warming in recent decades can be attributed to human activities... The scientific understanding of climate change is now sufficiently clear to justify nations taking prompt action."

The one study by Rasool and Schneider, that was sensationally quoted in the 70s was one regarding the effects of aerosol particles (mostly from burning coal) on the average annual temperature. It predicted annual drops in temperature due to the increase in aerosol levels. It turns out the article was right about the aerosols, but underestimated the influence of CO2 by a large factor. But more importantly, aerosol levels started to drop by the 80s as we put more pollution controls on coal burning plants.

What was happening was the typical tendency for the popular press to sensationalize science to the point where their reporting becomes irresponsible and inaccurate. For example, the James Schlesinger's irresponsible quote mining in his Washington Post article is typical of this kind of stunt. Schlesinger quotes from the Rasool and Schnieder article as:
"Judging from the record of the past interglacial ages, the present time of high temperatures should be drawing to an end . . . leading into the next glacial age."

But if you look at the actual article you find:

"Judging from the record of the past interglacial ages, the present time of high temperatures should be drawing to an end, to be followed by a long period of considerably colder temperatures leading to the next glacial age some 20,000 years from now. However, it is possible, or even likely, that human interference has already altered the environment so much that the climatic pattern of the near future will follow a different path.

For instance, widespread deforestation in recent centuries, especially in Europe and North America, together with increased atmospheric opacity due to man-made dust storms and industrial wastes, should have increased the Earth’s reflectivity. At the same time increasing concentration of industrial carbon dioxide in the atmosphere should lead to a temperature increase by absorption of infrared radiation from the Earth’s surface.

When these human factors are added to such other natural factors as volcanic eruptions, changes in solar activity, and resonances within the hydro-atmosphere, their effect can only be estimated in terms of direction, not of amount"

In the final analysis, here is a graph of the number of scientific papers published between 1965 and 1980 on the subject of warming or cooling. Keep in mind that the papers on cooling were looking at aerosol effects and mentioned the counter effects of CO2, and the warming papers were concentrating on CO2.

If you add up all the citations for the various papers, the spread between the cooling papers and the warming papers is a few orders of magnitude more than the number of papers alone.

So yes, there was an Ice Age scare but it was the popular press's scare, not the scientific community's scare. These days the press articles are being used irresponsibly in the same manner that faceking is using them. The goal is to undermine the integrity of scientific work in this field in the eye of the public so as to directly affect public policy regardless of the actual science.
 
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JustAsking

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By the way, you can see the cooling period that led up to the aerosol concerns in the 70s in this graph. But notice how the effect goes away as the aerosol levels drop, and the CO2 component begins to dominate.
 

MercyfulFate

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Go ahead and drink less then 8 glasses then, I don't give a fuck what happens to ya.



Your example was stupid plain and simple, I pointed that out and you still don't see it.

Science constantly learns and updates past conclusions? Jesus Christ, I had no idea! :eek:

Gee... what other pearls of 5th grade science do you have for us all?

What are you gonna tell us next? Maybe you should share the contents of an atom with us...

Suck it Queen Diamond.

You jumped to incorrect conclusions and were wrong, the end.

I mean hell, you didn't even understand what I said and went on a tirade!