Anyone on here don't talk to one or both parents?

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Well, it was a 'try before you buy' situation. How can i let them be my mama and daddy if I don't now how good the sex will be?

Oh, I see. Well, they were quite taken with you (until the stairs incident), but felt your perfect grammar was rather intimidating and somewhat of a stumbling block. :smile:
 

Mickactual

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My dad walked out of my life over 30 years ago.
They often say that the casualties of divorce wars are the children. I can attest to that.
I often think of trying to find him. But then I spot check myself and question the wisdom in that. What You get when You find someone who's gone out of their way to not be found is usually not what You were hoping for.
 
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Yup, joll.
You just have to remember that the future is to redesign the past.
That'll take you many places.:tongue:

So true and profound isn't it? It's like all the wisdom in the universe, er..encapsulated in a throwaway comment. Hehehe. :wink:
 

D_Tim McGnaw

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Well, can it not be both?
But the fact is that virtually everyone is walking around, constantly living in the past, redressing old grievances, fantasizing about what they should have done ... or, if they're turned to the future, fantasizing about the penthouses and limousines that will come, rather than looking at the actions they can perform now to bring a vision of the future closer. (Some peeps are even sillier, choosing to fantasize about how the future will be even worse than the present.)
This therapy doesn't just state what I gave in my post.
They have techniques that bring a deep and textured realization to the practitioner.
Which is the next point: These are actual practices that one maintains, hopefully.

Hilaire, all wisdom is simple. But that doesn't mean that no one should be offering wisdom.
After all, how many peeps are wise?
We have our moments, all of us ... but most of the time we're not squeezing life's orange in the way we know we could.



While I'd aver that all wisdom is simple, I do agree that much of the wisdom necessary for every day life if axiomatic. It's not the simplicity of the wisdom which bugs me, but the mode of its transmission.

I also dislike the notion that what is merely common sense and in most cases simply a practical response to problems which are solvable by practical means can be elaborated into a therapeutic structure, it seems to defeat the purpose of the therapy in the first place.

But more than that I find the commoditisation of common sense suspect.
 

D_Gunther Snotpole

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While I'd aver that all wisdom is simple, I do agree that much of the wisdom necessary for every day life if axiomatic. It's not the simplicity of the wisdom which bugs me, but the mode of its transmission.
How would you have it transmitted, hilaire?

I also dislike the notion that what is merely common sense and in most cases simply a practical response to problems which are solvable by practical means can be elaborated into a therapeutic structure, it seems to defeat the purpose of the therapy in the first place.
I'm not at all sure what you mean.
The means they use, while based on common sense, are not means that will occur to most people.
The recognition of how grounded it is in common sense comes after the exposure.
Nor, I don't think, are they means that one could easily use simply by reading about them, say, and making one's best novitiate's effort.
They do require a therapist with a bit of training.

And if they work, how would they be defeating the purpose of therapy?
Now, whether they work is something that you don't know.
I can say I found them effective, and many others apparently have, but that doesn't take you very far, I realize.


But more than that I find the commoditisation of common sense suspect.
Their sense of how the therapy should be delivered makes them strange vendors of a commodity.
They don't want to sell to the same person a whole lot of times. This is supposed to be quick stuff.
Most therapy is open ended, goes on forever, and costs a bundle. Various studies have shown that therapy produces healing at a rate not too significantly greater than what people achieve spontaneously on their own. (Not everyone agrees with this, particularly most therapists.)
This therapy is quite different.
A few sessions gives one the tools to use to refresh the experience.
The person who exposed me to it, talked to me only once, and charged nothing.
It was perhaps the most effective hour of encounter I've ever had.
I should note that she was a monk sworn not to charge for her services.
That might be the ideal means of conveyance.
But how many of us are monks?
 
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B_dxjnorto

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But then I spot check myself and question the wisdom in that.
I'm sorry for your loss Mick. Just because you are related to someone is no guarantee that you will feel an affinity for them, or they for you. The problem is when those primary relationships are poor, there are really no replacements for them. Some people find proxies. Some never do. We moved constantly growing up so that made finding substitutes unlikely.
 

D_Anton_Pavlovich_Jerkhov

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While I'd aver that all wisdom is simple, I do agree that much of the wisdom necessary for every day life if axiomatic. It's not the simplicity of the wisdom which bugs me, but the mode of its transmission.

I also dislike the notion that what is merely common sense and in most cases simply a practical response to problems which are solvable by practical means can be elaborated into a therapeutic structure, it seems to defeat the purpose of the therapy in the first place.

But more than that I find the commoditisation of common sense suspect.

Hmm, I suggest that you should read more into CL before putting it down, if that is what you are doing? I don't claim it to be a flawless tool, but it is also far from being simply common-sensical. Actually, it rather turns much of conventional common-sense upside down.

Another therapy that heavily focusses on parents comes from Bert Hellinger: Systemic Psychotherapy or Familial Constellations.
 

D_Tim McGnaw

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OK Rubi this is just a quick run through of my own reaction to the aspects of this therapy you quoted. Note that I by no means consider myself a particularly excellent or even well adjusted person. Simply a normal one.

The appreciation aspect reflects the fact that no one is really self made. You owe your life to your parents, your language to all those who taught you, your education to teachers, school board and the peeps who built the schools, your possessions to inventors, people working in factories, shippers putting products on trucks or trains ships, and so forth.

Anyone stupid enough to imagine that the systems which provide them education or indeed healthcare, or any of those services and provisions which we in the developed world enjoy, have simple sprung into existence like mushrooms without the effort and in many cases the dedication of other people is bound to face sudden and unexpected problems in life, anyone who is aware of this effort and dedication but who simply doesn't care is so ungrateful that a good does of misery might well be the best lesson they may learn in life.
You don't need to fight your fears or discover hidden ones.

This is evidence of dispute with other therapy models, not necessarily with natural human instinct. Presumably it is useful to people with longterm experience in other kinds of therapy, sufficient enough to have completely habituated them to the idea of uncovering and challenging one's fears. I accept that in the US (or certain parts of it anyway) this may in fact be a real problem, but in the rest of the world large numbers of people do not spend long periods of their life in therapy and do not find their instincts have been overwritten by theraputic imperatives.
Fear of flying is no reason to avoid air travel.

I'm presuming that this is advice for those with fear of flying only, and not a dictum for the management of fear in general, fear of something of someone being a useful guide in many cases to things or people who might be ligitimately dangerous in some way. Otherwise judging by the ammount of people I've seen sho were white with terror onboard planes I suspect most people have already realised that being irrationally afraid of flying is not a good reason to not fly if one has a good reason to fly somewhere. Those who haven't realised this and refuse to fly no matter what are probably beyond the reach of common sense and likely do need some equally irrational and nonesensical rationale for getting aloft.
For all your dreams you are what you do.

I don't know if this is a cultural thing but I think people around these parts are more than aware that in life they are being judged by the sum of their actions and not on the basis of their aspirations, indeed people are often held to their actions in spite of their pretensions. I'm pretty sure that most people atcually find the conflict between the person they know their actions have made them and the person they might like to be either a useful spur to endeavour or a constant reminder of their failures. Those who do not realise this fact are deluded, and delusion is normally beyond the reach of therapy because it is self rewarding, it normally has a life span based upon its ability to reward the deluded individual.
Feelings fade over time unless restimulated by complaining or other circumstances.

I admit this is useful advice, but it's not as though one's friends, family or even most decent cognitive therapists wouldn't tell you this anyway.
You can't build a life on feeling good all the time.

Again good advice, but my Granny used to tell me this all the time. If members of my family told me this I'm pretty sure members of other people's family tell them this also.
Confidence follows success; it need not come before.

This depends on what one thinks confidence consists of, a certain natural self assurance and security can be the product of good upbringing, but I agree that people could stand to be told that the more one successfully deals with and achieves in life the more confident one becomes. But this is the product of the passing of time. Those who do not gain confidence over time often have real problems arising from past experiences which could stand to be dealt in order to help them recognise the actual level of success they have achieved. Telling these people that they will only be more confident if they are more successful is somewhat redundant.
You must take responsibility for what you do no matter what you feel.

Life has a way of making this a fact anyway, we are all living with the responsibilities of a life made up of the consequences of our actions, even shirking one's responsibilities carries with it a new set of resposponsibility, such as the responsibility to quell the feelings of guilt, or to obliterate the knowledge of one's failure. Neither of those is unburdensome.
You can change your past by changing what you do now.

Well this is a rare piece of nonesense, I presume it isn't meant literally, since actually changing the past is impossible. I presume it means that one can change the way the past impinges upon the present by actively deciding to live in a way which does not entirely reflect one's past bad experieneces.
No one really knows why humans do what they do.

This is half true, and for the purposes of everyday life it is a useful presumption, but it sounds like a line from any number of bad novels/plays/television programs/et.c. and is such a common place it seems hard to believe that anyone needs to be told it.
The optimal mind isn't always peaceful or blissful; it is flexible.

This sounds like ergonomics, what the "optimal mind" is though is anyone's guess. Flexibility is however a highly useful trait, I'm not sure though that recomending it is unique to this form of therapy.
Feelings don't need to be fixed.

I wont argue that this is a useful reminder, by which I mean that it's a reminder of what is the native human condition, I suspect that outside of a culture in which the imperative to "fix" emotions has become commonplace this is unnecessary advice though.
The myth of the self-made person is bankrupt.

This is surely a philosophical assertion, and one which is too bald to be incorporated into a therapeutic schema.
When we lose ourselves in constructive activity, our neurotic suffering is gone.

In all honesty who does not realise this ? Except perhaps those with very serious mental health issues, to whom this piece of advice is probably not especially useful.

Continued below. My god I had no idea how long this post was going to be LOL
 

D_Tim McGnaw

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Those who want success most have the greatest fear of failure.

A typical "Confucius say..." type truism, which both congratulates the individual it is aimed at and reminds them that small ambitions are as useful as grand ones.
There is nothing wrong with dreaming, unless we only dream.

Is this necessary advice in a world in which it is a common disparagement of those with a week grip on reality to call them a "Dreamer" ?
Effort is already success.

This is relatively useful advice, but hardly more useful than the comfort implicit in saying "As long as you give it try and give it your best..." again is it necessary to re-codify such a truism and incorporate it into a therapy ?
Neurotic suffering grows from self-centeredness, misplaced attention.

This is a gem, but reworded is advice I've been given by family members on numerous occasions. I suspect this is common knowledge. Good cognitive therapy will encourage the individual to look beyond the self absorption which may be at the root of one's problems and to look outwards at one's life and to be thankful for the positives to be found there.
Life always implies desires that exceed realistic limits.

This is straying off in to vagueness and ineffability, there may be some kernel of truth in this but encompassed in the language of a maxim it makes little sense.
Forgiving your parents is trivial; seeking their forgiveness is more valuable to you.

Well yes, if the cause of one's rift with them is trivial, not if it is not, and yes if one has done something in need of forgiveness seeking forgiveness for having done nothing needing forgiveness would be pointless.
Don't hope to eliminate neurotic suffering by talk or medication.

This is a highly debatable assertion, it depends on a variety of presumptions. What one defines as "neurotic suffering", what the causes of that suffering are, what kind of "talk" is being implied, and what kind of medication is being dismissed. Frankly its presumptions make this a faintly dangerous piece of advice if applied to numerous situations. A suicidal undiagnosed depressive could most certainly benefit from talking to someone about their feelings and seeking pharmaceutical treatment, to suggest otherwise would be positively irresponsible.
Reality doesn't respond directly to thought or intent, only to action.

This is self evident unless one is etxremely mentally ill in which case this advice is pretty useless.
Distinguish between what is controllable and what is uncontrollable in your life.

Again this is good advice, but not unique to this form of therapy by any means.
Develop more self-discipline in daily life.

Excellent advice, my teachers, relatives and others were perfectly correct to attempt to instill this in me.
Set goals and stay focused on your priorities.


Again, is this unique advice to this form of therapy ?
Recognize the specific ways in which your life is supported by people and things.​


A reiteration of the first of these "learn to" maxims.
Gather information from feelings without being governed by them.

Whether or not it is possible to not be governed by one's emotions as a human being is irrelevent I suppose. But this contains a kernel of good advice.
Live life more realistically.

"Get real" in other words.
Do what needs doing.

Good advice though hardly hidden wisdom.
Focus on living well regardless of how you are feeling at the moment.


Probably the most useful piece of advice contained within all of these, it certainly is useful to be reminded to live better than you feel, and to base your feelings on the reality of how you actually live.
Review your past from a fresh perspective.
Handle life crises sensibly.​

This is so trite it could have come from any horoscope in any women's magazine.
How would you have it transmitted, hilaire?

By any of its traditional means of transmission, or at least any which does not involve someone cobbling together the traditional wisdom of humankind in to a self help book and a therapy from which they then make large sums of money. My grandparents have been handing out this advice all my life and have never earned a penny from it, rather like the Nun you mentioned.
 

D_Tim McGnaw

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Oh curses! Something about your indellible formatting tags has screwed up my second post Rubi! Sorry if it makes no sense now, I only noticed after the edit button had gone, why does the edit button disappear so quickly ?
 

D_Gunther Snotpole

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Another therapy that heavily focusses on parents comes from Bert Hellinger: Systemic Psychotherapy or Familial Constellations.
Hmmm. Were we maybe separated at birth?
I used to belong to a Hellinger group.
Read quite a bit about and by him, saw many videos, and took part in a day-long session with Hellinger.
I could never quite make up my mind whether it was really valid or not.
If it is, it's very profound.
But is it?
I dunno.

There's certainly something unique about him.

OK Rubi this is just a quick run through of my own reaction to the aspects of this therapy you quoted. Note that I by no means consider myself a particularly excellent or even well adjusted person. Simply a normal one.

Anyone stupid enough to imagine that the systems which provide them education or indeed healthcare, or any of those services and provisions which we in the developed world enjoy, have simple sprung into existence like mushrooms without the effort and in many cases the dedication of other people is bound to face sudden and unexpected problems in life, anyone who is aware of this effort and dedication but who simply doesn't care is so ungrateful that a good dose of misery might well be the best lesson they may learn in life.

Well, Hilaire, you personally may well have a true and ongoing appreciation of all these things.
And if you do, you are remarkable and unique.
Most people truly don't.

This is evidence of dispute with other therapy models, not necessarily with natural human instinct. Presumably it is useful to people with longterm experience in other kinds of therapy, sufficient enough to have completely habituated them to the idea of uncovering and challenging one's fears. I accept that in the US (or certain parts of it anyway) this may in fact be a real problem, but in the rest of the world large numbers of people do not spend long periods of their life in therapy and do not find their instincts have been overwritten by theraputic imperatives.
I'm not sure of the relevance of this.
This therapy pays no attention to fears, except to acknowledge that we may have an inclination to have them stop us cold in our tracks.
They are not picked up, turned over, examined closely at all.
Experience with other therapies would be an impediment to a degree, though not a great one.
And I must disagree with you on one point: There is a human instinct to be governed by one's fears. So this therapy is a counterpoint to both other therapeutic models and to at least one strain of human instinct.
(The therapies that Reynolds has united are actually Japanese, and they were developed in the first half of the 20th Century, certainly not a time when therapy had any grip on the Japanese population.)


I'm presuming that this is advice for those with fear of flying only, and not a dictum for the management of fear in general, fear of something of someone being a useful guide in many cases to things or people who might be ligitimately dangerous in some way.
No. It's for fear generally.

I don't know if this is a cultural thing but I think people around these parts are more than aware that in life they are being judged by the sum of their actions and not on the basis of their aspirations, indeed people are often held to their actions in spite of their pretensions.
If you ask them, they will give you the answer you have given ... but if you watch their behavior (and this, while true of most, is far truer of some), you'll find that fantasy displaces a lot of action from the space of consciousness. This seems to me just a very fundamental human fact.

I will address a couple more, but their point, taken together, is to convey some of the vantage point of this therapy.
That can't be forced on anyone.
These are not obscure points ... they're rather obvious, as you say. In a cerebral sense, we comprehend them without any hesitation or difficulty.
But we live as though we'd never heard them.


Well this is a rare piece of nonesense, I presume it isn't meant literally, since actually changing the past is impossible. I presume it means that one can change the way the past impinges upon the present by actively deciding to live in a way which does not entirely reflect one's past bad experiences.
Putting it more strongly, to live in a way that meets the requirements of the present.
No reference desired to past experiences.


I suspect that outside of a culture in which the imperative to "fix" emotions has become commonplace this is unnecessary advice though.
I suspect it's universal, though probably a bit more applicable to western cultures. Remember, the underlying approaches are Japanese.

This is surely a philosophical assertion, and one which is too bald to be incorporated into a therapeutic schema.
In this therapy, it's not a philosophical assertion but rather one taken directly from experience.
I don't understand how it's "too bald to be incorporated into a therapeutic schema."
A person who believes they are "self-made" is simply unaware of how their entire life has been supported by others.
That is the whole point of the appreciation aspect.


In all honesty who does not realise [that when we lose ourselves in constructive activity, our neurotic suffering is gone]? Except perhaps those with very serious mental health issues, to whom this piece of advice is probably not especially useful.
But the fact is that almost everyone wallows in some degree of neurotic suffering.
The fact that something has been often heard does not mean that it is not utterly important.
People have a cerebral grasp of the point.
But to understand this from one's core is, at least in those moments of understanding, to change one's behavior.


If you are curious, there are a number of websites that can be accessed simply by googling "constructive living."
I'm prattling on, but I'm not sure I'm really the one to explain this.
 

D_Tim McGnaw

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Well, Hilaire, you personally may well have a true and ongoing appreciation of all these things.
And if you do, you are remarkable and unique.
Most people truly don't.


Oh come now Rubi, who says most people don't understand the debts they owe to others ? Or was there an exstensive study done that I don't know about on this topic ? :tongue:

I'm not sure of the relevance of this.
This therapy pays no attention to fears, except to acknowledge that we may have an inclination to have them stop us cold in our tracks.
They are not picked up, turned over, examined closely at all.
Experience with other therapies would be an impediment to a degree, though not a great one.
And I must disagree with you on one point: There is a human instinct to be governed by one's fears. So this therapy is a counterpoint to both other therapeutic models and to at least one strain of human instinct.
(The therapies that Reynolds has united are actually Japanese, and they were developed in the first half of the 20th Century, certainly not a time when therapy had any grip on the Japanese population.)



No. It's for fear generally.​


My point being that fear is a vital tool for survival, and perhaps should not be too disturbed and turned over and poked at. I agree with the therapy thus far, I'm just not sure human nature would provoke anyone to poke or disturb their fears unless other models of behaviour were instilled in them. I'm not sure where these bahviours are common, hence my mystification at how necessary or useful the dictum is. Just leave people to leave their fears alone and leave it at that.

If you ask them, they will give you the answer you have given ... but if you watch their behavior (and this, while true of most, is far truer of some), you'll find that fantasy displaces a lot of action from the space of consciousness. This seems to me just a very fundamental human fact.

More than 80% of the world's population live in poverty, I'm not sure these people have the luxury of allowing fantasy to replace action, so I'm afraid I can't agree that this is a very fundamental human fact I'm afraid.

I will address a couple more, but their point, taken together, is to convey some of the vantage point of this therapy.
That can't be forced on anyone.
These are not obscure points ... they're rather obvious, as you say. In a cerebral sense, we comprehend them without any hesitation or difficulty.
But we live as though we'd never heard them.

Some people do, normally crapulent and self indulgent people, doubtless they need help as much as anyone else but I'm not sure if their behaviour should be seen as common to all humans.


Putting it more strongly, to live in a way that meets the requirements of the present.
No reference desired to past experiences.

Well again that is a practical requirement of mere survival for the vast majority of humans around the world, so I wouldn't disagree with it.



In this therapy, it's not a philosophical assertion but rather one taken directly from experience.
I don't understand how it's "too bald to be incorporated into a therapeutic schema."
A person who believes they are "self-made" is simply unaware of how their entire life has been supported by others.
That is the whole point of the appreciation aspect.


It depends on one's definition of self made, I'm not sure I ever encountered anyone who really believed that they had recieved absolutely no assistance for a single other human being in their entire lives and had noone to be thankfull to. This monster addressed in the therapy doesn't exist.


But the fact is that almost everyone wallows in some degree of neurotic suffering.
The fact that something has been often heard does not mean that it is not utterly important.
People have a cerebral grasp of the point.
But to understand this from one's core is, at least in those moments of understanding, to change one's behavior.

I must admit as a materialist I don't really recognise any other kind of understanding than that which is of cerebral nature but I suppose I can accept that a lot of people don't bother to act on what they know to be the best advice.

If you are curious, there are a number of websites that can be accessed simply by googling "constructive living."
I'm prattling on, but I'm not sure I'm really the one to explain this.


I googled it already, it's interesting it leads one on to speculation about the collectivised culture of pre-war Japan and the sense in which it encouraged individual submission to the collective and ultimately the submission of the collective to the state and thence to the Emperor, a culture which had very dramatic results for Japan in the end.
 
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D_Anton_Pavlovich_Jerkhov

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Hmmm. Were we maybe separated at birth?
I used to belong to a Hellinger group.
Read quite a bit about and by him, saw many videos, and took part in a day-long session with Hellinger.
I could never quite make up my mind whether it was really valid or not.
If it is, it's very profound.
But is it?
I dunno.
There's certainly something unique about him.

Well, there is always a possibility, especially if you have the same age as me. But you look younger, judging from your avatar. :smile:

I just read a book from Hellinger, and it made me cry a lot, but then again I am just like a cry-baby. :biggrin1:

I will add you as a friend, may I?

I think the best therapy for everyone is to live intensely. But this is common-sense again. :biggrin1: