Anyone reading Ayn Rand ATLAS SHRUGGED

[JustAsking]

Ayn Rand is the queen mother of the philosophy of how to become a selfish douchebag. Objectivism = formalized douchebaggery.

 

[BF2K]

Ayn Rand is very misunderstood if taken on a superficial level. My first reading of Fountainhead was while I was in India for 6 months - worked with a guy in NYC that talked about her all the time and I hated the fucker - wanted to find out what the link was. I found out the guy was more Ellsworth Toohey than Howard Roarke. Where I agree is that all humans, in the end, make personal choices that are basically "selfish" in nature and that no human has the right to impose his "selfishness" on anyone else. Unfortunately, it's all impossible as "information" to transact with other individuals is not free and the world relies much more on "who you know" and "if you rub my back, I'll rub yours" than true logical transactions between people. I do admit that I would prefer Ayn Rands logical world to Mao, Marx or Lenin. Enough ranting for now - I may post again when the hate mail piles up. lol

 

[vince]

The back rub part sounds ok.

 

[houtx48]

IT'S A FUCKING NOVEL..............truer words were never spoken

 

[BF2K]

you just want me to "rub" your "toohey" vince!!! lol

 

[Zeuhl34]

I tried reading Atlas Shrugged and could not stand her writing style. I got about 20 pages in and couldn't put up with her long-windedness. I'd like to read it so I could participate in discussions about it, but I just don't like Ayn Rand's writing style.

 

[SR_Blarney_Frank]

For whatever reason everyone probably has that one friend who at one time - probably during your college experimentation phase - said to you, "dude have you read Atlas Shrugged? it's just so brilliant you must read it. So of course I did and asked, well what's so brilliant about it? It's readable enough, but certain middling as far as literature goes.

People likely to rave about it are the same people likely to claim they enjoy listening to a bit of Miles Davis while sipping a Shiraz and chatting about the cubists (you know, like Picasso?).

 

[D_Fiona_Farvel]

For whatever reason everyone probably has that one friend who at one time - probably during your college experimentation phase - said to you, "dude have you read Atlas Shrugged? it's just so brilliant you must read it. So of course I did and asked, well what's so brilliant about it? It's readable enough, but certain middling as far as literature goes.

People likely to rave about it are the same people likely to claim they enjoy listening to a bit of Miles Davis while sipping a Shiraz and chatting about the cubists (you know, like Picasso?).

:biggrin1: Miles Davis, Woodchuck Dark & Dry cider, and Georgia O' Keefe or Judy Chicago, please.

 

[B_Nick8]

The back rub part sounds ok.

Back rubs always do, right?

Well the OP, under his third name, will likely not weigh in again (and is on this site right now if you look at his page, btw) since he's a long-proven fake [anyone remember his adopted kids, Race and Q?], and now, with this new thread, one with literary pretensions. Aspirations can be fun. Anyone ever been to Ivy, Virginia?

Anyway and honestly, as an addictive reader, I can say I've never read Ayn Rand because despite my pseudo hippie upbringing, I was less than inspired. But I will say that after reading this thread and because of the weight I give the people I respect here, the likelyhood that I ever will makes it hugely unlikely. I think I'll spare myself the pain.

 

[B_Nick8]

The back rub part sounds ok.

Back rubs always do, right?

Well the OP, under his third name, will likely not weigh in again since he's a long-proven fake [anyone remember his adopted twin boys, Race and Q?], and now, with this new thread, one with literary pretensions. Aspirations can be fun. Anyone ever been to Ivy, Virginia?

Anyway and honestly, as an addictive reader, I can say I've never read Ayn Rand because despite my pseudo hippie upbringing, I was less than inspired. But I will say that after reading this thread and because of the weight I give the people I respect here, the likelyhood that I ever will makes it hugely unlikely. I think I'll spare myself the pain.

 

[faceking]

I read Atlas Shrugged and the Fountainhead years and years ago, haven't heard anything about it being "most read" lately. WTF is up with that, I wonder?

I keep hearing about it more and more being read... I guess the reality of the Obama disaster isn't enough, they like reading about it in fiction as well.

 

[Northland]

Is it any wonder America has run off the rails?

One of Rand’s most famous devotees is Alan Greenspan, the former chairman of the Federal Reserve, whose memoir, “The Age of Turbulence,”

The Alan Greenspan Timeline

Greenspan begins to develop a serious interest in Ayn Rand's philosophical ideas, which will later be known as Objectivism. He attends regular Saturday night salons at Rand's apartment, which include the opportunity to read draft sections of Rand's forthcoming novel, Atlas Shrugged.
​

It sounds like someone else was watching Frontline this past week.

 

[HotBulge]

If it is true that people are reading "Atlas Shrugged" in greater numbers, I suspect they are trying to ascertain why the (American Capitalist) way of life seems to be falling from its pillars. The irony is that Objectivist (= (un) justified self-interest) help bring about the decline of this country.

Sargon20 mentions Alan Greenspan as a devotee of Ayn Rand. Greenspan's underlying belief in Objectivism helped bring this country down because he naievely believed that companies (and by extension) individuals who maximized their own self-interest would essentially be self-regulating and would not put their future in jeopardy. He wrongly assumed that the selfish interest of corporations were longer sighted. His belief in self-regulating corporate interests was naieve and obviously mistaken given history. Narrow self-interest has essentially made the US more socio-economically unequal since the age of the Robber Barons..

 

[JustAsking]

If it is true that people are reading "Atlas Shrugged" in greater numbers, I suspect they are trying to ascertain why the (American Capitalist) way of life seems to be falling from its pillars. The irony is that Objectivist (= (un) justified self-interest) help bring about the decline of this country.

Sargon20 mentions Alan Greenspan as a devotee of Ayn Rand. Greenspan's underlying belief in Objectivism helped bring this country down because he naievely believed that companies (and by extension) individuals who maximized their own self-interest would essentially be self-regulating and would not put their future in jeopardy. He wrongly assumed that the selfish interest of corporations were longer sighted. His belief in self-regulating corporate interests was naieve and obviously mistaken given history. Narrow self-interest has essentially made the US more socio-economically unequal since the age of the Robber Barons..

Hot,
Greenspan has obviously never been in a boardroom and listened to all the rationalizations for basically screwing everyone they can think of in the name of profit.

Not only was Greespan (and Ayn Rand) wrong, but he also apologiized for being such an idiot, oops sorry, i mean such a follower of Objectivism.

 

[ZOS23xy]

I had a copy of ATLAS SHRUGGED. I sat in front of the fireplace on a cold night, using the pages to keep the fire going.

Not impressed with her thinking.

 

[deleted15807]

The sad fact is there are still many who don't seem to grasp what has happened and still cling to economic ideas that have failed miserably. What has happened was NEVER supposed to happen. We were too smart to have it happen. We KNOW what we are doing now. Macroeconomics and wonderful formulas can explain how everything works. The rational market will allocate funds at exactly the right time and right price. There are no asset bubbles government need concern itself with. The Fed can now prevent severe recessions and depressions. But here we are.

In October of last year Greenspan was admitting that he was in a state of “shocked disbelief,” because “the whole intellectual edifice” had “collapsed.”

​

When Richard A. Posner writes a book 'A Failure of Capitalism'. You know you are in trouble.

 

[midlifebear]

Ayan Rand's books are something one usually reads in post adolescence (if you're an active reader) and then tend to grow out of. Her fabulous philosophy of self-determination sort of helps the weak and less brave get over certain personality humps. But as a life philosophy or world view, it's a rather childish position to cling to into old age (or your early 20s).

If you really want a kick, read Babbit by Sinclair Lewis; especially in lieu of the current 'Mericuhn economic crisis. It's a hoot. Honest.

 

[HotBulge]

agreed/

Ayan Rand's books are something one usually reads in post adolescence (if you're an active reader) and then tend to grow out of. Her fabulous philosophy of self-determination sort of helps the weak and less brave get over certain personality humps. But as a life philosophy or world view, it's a rather childish position to cling to into old age (or your early 20s).
.

 

[jason_els]

The sad fact is there are still many who don't seem to grasp what has happened and still cling to economic ideas that have failed miserably. What has happened was NEVER supposed to happen. We were too smart to have it happen. We KNOW what we are doing now. Macroeconomics and wonderful formulas can explain how everything works. The rational market will allocate funds at exactly the right time and right price. There are no asset bubbles government need concern itself with. The Fed can now prevent severe recessions and depressions. But here we are.

In October of last year Greenspan was admitting that he was in a state of “shocked disbelief,” because “the whole intellectual edifice” had “collapsed.”

​

When Richard A. Posner writes a book 'A Failure of Capitalism'. You know you are in trouble.

If it is true that people are reading "Atlas Shrugged" in greater numbers, I suspect they are trying to ascertain why the (American Capitalist) way of life seems to be falling from its pillars. The irony is that Objectivist (= (un) justified self-interest) help bring about the decline of this country.

Sargon20 mentions Alan Greenspan as a devotee of Ayn Rand. Greenspan's underlying belief in Objectivism helped bring this country down because he naievely believed that companies (and by extension) individuals who maximized their own self-interest would essentially be self-regulating and would not put their future in jeopardy. He wrongly assumed that the selfish interest of corporations were longer sighted. His belief in self-regulating corporate interests was naieve and obviously mistaken given history. Narrow self-interest has essentially made the US more socio-economically unequal since the age of the Robber Barons..

These are excellent points.

Rand's two greatest weaknesses are that she assumes Objectivism is always in one's best interest and she assumes that no one will do anything other than what is in one's own self interest if, in fact, one even knows what that is.

Her first point was radically disproved by John Nash (the subject of the film, A Beautiful Mind), in what is known as, The Nash Equilibrium. The Nash Equilibrium essentially states that for a given action, one who acts in one's own best interest is better served by cooperating with others who have the same interest to achieve a goal even if one has to modify one's own processes to achieve that goal.

Rand's second point is disproved by the fact that we truly do not know what is in our own best interest. Dagny may well have thought that running all those trains on time was in her best interest, but she may not be right. Given the state of the railroad system right after the book was written, Dagny would have been better served by selling all her railroads and investing in airlines or something else. This is a big problem with Rand. Because she writes in narrative, she controls the actions and results of her hypotheses. They are not (pardon the pun) objectively tested. That's OK because few things in philosophy are, but it's not a basis for living your life. To be a true Objectivist is to always know what is in your best interest now and in the future. Objectivism requires foreknowledge of future events and that's simply not possible by any proven method.

Last, Galt's Gulch operates in a vacuum. The truth is no market is unregulated or unfettered because no market is perfect. Every market is cooperative and each market participant has goals which may or may not be in one's own interest. Because it is impossible to gauge what is in our best interest, it is impossible to operate the perfect Objectivist market.

Mary is in the market looking to sell her mirror. She advertises so well that everyone who wants to purchase a mirror knows Mary is selling one. Mary then puts her mirror up for sale and knows what it's worth and what price to ask. Bargaining occurs. Some potential buyers reject Mary's price, but one accepts it. The mirror is sold. Five minutes later, another buyer enters the market and wants to buy it from Mary. That buyer will pay far more than the mirror sold for because it's a family heirloom the buyer wants back in the family. The goal of the buyer, in this instance, is at odds with the goal of the market but in complete accord with what the buyer believes to be in his own best interest. It would have been in Mary's best interest to wait to sell the mirror until this buyer approached her, but Mary couldn't predict the future and so acted in what she (very reasonably) believed was her own best interest even though it was not.

In order for a market to be perfect, everyone must agree on what every good and service is worth and then adhere to that value. Any variation and the market becomes imperfect because dissimilar ideas of value create what appear to be (but not always are) irrational economies.

In the end, I see a true Galt's Gulch being composed of people who couldn't even share a sewage system or fire department. You look out your window, see your neighbor's house ablaze, and go back to skinning your rabbit. It's a bunker mentality which neglects a few practical truths about human behavior. The first is that we are a social species and the second is that interdependence is necessary for our survival. It is not impossible to survive on one's own, but when a family unit is impossible to maintain (which it would be under Objectivism because no man would marry and no woman would rely on a man to provide for her and an infant (if she cared for an infant at all)), life does become nasty, brutish, and short.

 

[Guy-jin]

Ayn Rand is the queen mother of the philosophy of how to become a selfish douchebag. Objectivism = formalized douchebaggery.

Agreed.

I have encountered a select few self-proclaimed "intellectuals" that swear by Ayn Rand. Of course, as soon as I find out they think Rand is anything but an instruction booklet for those who wish to live alone in their mother's basement for eternity, I stop bothering to even take them seriously.

Some have said Neo-Cons came directly from Ayn Rand. I couldn't disagree more. They may hold some of her ideals, but Neo-Cons also wear their religions on their sleeves and use religion as a justification for their beliefs.

Meanwhile, Rand was an Atheist.

I am usually sure to mention this fact to people who have recently "discovered" her.