Appointment of President Blair would be seen as a "hostile act".

[Jason]

I've just seen Question Time. The level of anti-Blair, anti-government and anti-EU feeling expressed is unbelievable. People are saying that Blair has blood on his hands and that he betrayed Britain over Lisbon - and getting a round of applause.

Question Time this week is from Wales. They should be solid Labour supporters.

 

[D_Andreas Sukov]

do plaid Cymru still run in Uk gov elections?

 

[798686]

Yeh, they do. We always get 'vote plaid' ppl round haha.

 

[123scotty]

OK first things first OK sue is going to be interpreter and sooty and sweep joint president but roamer has it but this is only speculation hmmmm but harry corrbit could have a hand in here somewhere. but as we don't want to fire up speculation before an election we will keep this to ourselves [ wink wink] but do remember this is ONLY speculation. Anyway saw question time, Teflon Tony well some points for him ,well he can talk to americans and for some reason like him could be a good front man to put points across.instead of the messy rabble that is at present. someone must keep the americans at bay. that's his plus side. as for labour ohh dear ,Scotland has always been a strong hold. all be it a forgotten one, but that seems to be gone, the Scottish nats. have done well ,especially for a first time in power government. they have hit the deck running and not taken for granted Scottish issues . Unlike labour who forget all about Scotland until election time. so i now think an independent Scotland positively active in Europe and in the euro [at the correct join rate] would be a best step forward. This is now looking bad for labour. ohh where did i put my expenses form and what house do i live in oops thought I was a westminster MP there

 

[Jason]

Scotty is right that there are real issues for Scotland.

Scotland would have a hard time feeling comfortable wit a Conservative government. Presumably an incoming Conservative government would want to ensure that Scotland has no more electoral representation than its population merits. Presumably they will resolve the West Lothian Question by stripping Scottish MPs of the right to vote on some issues. I also think the Conservatives might have sympathy with the idea of an independent Scotland - such certainly changes the political geography of England, Wales and NI and makes a Labour government in the future most unlikely.

Scotland fully signed up to Europe (and perhaps Scotland in the Euro) and Britain and NI not so would be messy. But I suppose it could be managed. The key concept has to be that it represents the will of the people.

 

[D_Gunther Snotpole]

I also think the Conservatives might have sympathy with the idea of an independent Scotland - such certainly changes the political geography of England, Wales and NI

How much would that increase any impetus toward an independent Wales?
Sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.
Is support too minuscule to worry about?

 

[798686]

Independent Wales hasn't got a huge amount of impetus at the moment, i don't think. It was mainly Labour who encouraged the whole devolution thing anyway - partially because it was good for Northern Ireland, and also (I suspect) because it dovetailed neatly with the EU Regional Policy (break everywhere up into small regions, within a large, powerful Europe).

The Welsh (probably) would prefer to be ruled by Europe than by England, altho' I'm not sure they're overly keen on Brussels either.

Not sure how much sympathy the Tories would have for splitting Britain up, especially since they're trying so hard to make us independent of Europe - it wouldn't make sense to fragment the UK into small, powerless groups.

 

[Jason]

How much would that increase any impetus toward an independent Wales?
Sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.
Is support too minuscule to worry about?

The UK is an exceptionally complex structure - it is not like a federal system where all the parts have parallel structures. It is reasonable to look at each bit and come to a different conclusion. I'm a Unionist - I think the UK works - indeed in a perfect world I would like to see Ireland reunited as part of the Union.

England has seen its own sense of identity growing in the last decade. You do now see the Cross of St George (the English flag) which a decade ago was just about never seen.

Wales has the closest and longest relationship with England. Strictly it is a part of the kingdom of England (a principality) and uses English law, and it has an assembly not a parliament (which it voted for by a wafer thin majority on a referendum with a low turnout). While the cultural differences are strong (Welsh language spoken by some for example) there is not now a strong push towards independence. Additionally geography discourages it - there is no north-south motorway or railway. I really don't see Wales leaving the Union.

NI will stay. There is nowhere near a majority for integration with the Irish Republic (and anyway Ireland doesn't want NI) while an independent NI would be a blood bath.

Scotland is the part that in theory could go its own way. The last vote was back in the 1970s. Probably the Scots will have another one soon. It is up to them. Ireland and Iceland have demonstrated the problems of small countries. Virtually all Scottish trade is with or goes through England. Scotland gets substantial financial support from England. North Sea oil is running out and the claim that it is the Scots' oil far from clear. Nor is it clear that a breakaway nation would be in the EU - technically they have to re-apply and Spain has indicated that she would veto. My own view is that the Scots would not vote for independence. What has I think changed is English views on Scotland. Many in England would be completely unbothered by Scotland going its own way - a marked difference on say 20 years ago. We also have an oddity in the electoral arithmetic where without Scottish Labour MPs the Labour party would hardly ever have been in power in the UK. It is very hard to see how Labour can hope to win without Scotland. For Conservatives the idea is attractive. Encourage Scotland to go it alone and we've weakened and perhaps broken socialism in the remaining UK of Britain and NI.

Basically we need some blue sky thinking. An idea at the think-tank stage is for a strengthened Council of the Isles representing the UK + Ireland + Channel Islands + Man + Gibraltar, all on sterling and all with anglo-saxon legal systems. Whether Cameron has got the gumption is another matter.

 

[798686]

Council of Isles sounds interesting....

Good post Jase - I didn't know it was in the Tories' favour to have an independent Scotland. I think it would be a foolish and short-term decision though, as it would weaken both the UK and Scotland's hand.

 

[D_Gunther Snotpole]

How do young Scots feel about independence?
Are they strongly inclined to favor independence, as young people so often have, or do they start to feel that in a global world, immediate national boundaries will seem less and less important?

Drunken addendum:
The cause of separatism stirs much less excitement among Québécois youth than it did a couple of decades ago.
The romance is gone.
When the whole world is in many ways ever more readily at hand, it seems against history's grain to define your tribe within a narrow radius.
Once that sense is widely held, I suspect the whole project crumbles.

 

[123scotty]

Jason a great post
according to snp figures Scotland is paying its way in the UK. and has for some time. as for oil, take Norway a small country and has saved the money made from its natural assets. and so when the oil runs out they have a reserve to fall back on. And also the second most prosperous country in the world .the thing that sticks Scottish throats is westminster has squandered most of a natural resource to subsidise a badly run economy. oil is the paper covering allot of big cracks. Scotland also has its own separate legal system. and a Scottish economy still has some manufacturing left to build on. also tourism another good industry. Also renewable energy projects. Scotland is not as much of a lame duck, as some would like to make out. I truly think if Scotland were to stay part of the UK. The Scottish parliament must be given tax independence and the right to run internal and legal affairs without having westminster involvement .or maybe the union has to be rewritten or at least brought up to date. i think it is well past its sell by date

 

[D_Andreas Sukov]

Jason a great post
according to snp figures

thats probably biased.

Scotland is paying its way in the UK. and has for some time. as for oil, take Norway a small country and has saved the money made from its natural assets. and so when the oil runs out they have a reserve to fall back on. And also the second most prosperous country in the world .the thing that sticks Scottish throats is westminster has squandered most of a natural resource to subsidise a badly run economy. oil is the paper covering allot of big cracks. Scotland also has its own separate legal system. and a Scottish economy still has some manufacturing left to build on. also tourism another good industry. Also renewable energy projects. Scotland is not as much of a lame duck, as some would like to make out. I truly think if Scotland were to stay part of the UK. The Scottish parliament must be given tax independence and the right to run internal and legal affairs without having westminster involvement .or maybe the union has to be rewritten or at least brought up to date. i think it is well past its sell by date

if what you say should happen did happen then Scotland would not be part of the union. they would be fully autonimous, but still get my taxes paying for there services? i would not be happy with that. if Westminister were to do that, then there would be a mjor call for scotish independance coming from england.



why would spain veto scottish EU membership?

 

[123scotty]

thats probably biased.



if what you say should happen did happen then Scotland would not be part of the union. they would be fully autonimous, but still get my taxes paying for there services? i would not be happy with that. if Westminister were to do that, then there would be a mjor call for scotish independance coming from england.



why would spain veto scottish EU membership?

scotland has been paying its way and therefor is a net contributor. so why would your tax be paying for services here. i must agree i have no idea why spain would veto a scottish membership. i have mailed the snp to ask wonder what the reply will be. will keep you posted

 

[Jason]

A big issue is whether you regard North Sea oil and gas as Scottish or an asset for the whole UK. Certainly most of the oil is brought to shore in Scotland. However quite where maritime boundaries would be set is complex (often the trend of a land frontier is followed, and as the England Scotland border is a diagonal from Carlisle to Berwick the diagonal would be continued out to sea). Then there is the issue of the UK technology and investment in its extraction. And finally there is the issue that it is running out. SNP makes Scotland a net contributor by including tax revenues from North Sea oil and gas. Leaving these out Scotland is a substantial net beneficiary.

The squandering of North Sea oil has been shocking, and the contrast with Norway well made.

The younger generation in Scotland may have different views on independence but I can't bring to mind a poll that looked at this. Most Scots have family members in England. The majority of train passengers bording trains in Scotland end up in England. The younger generation is the Easy Jet generation familiar with cheap air travel often to other parts of the UK. More young Scots are wearing kilts than a generation ago but as for wanting an independent Scotland I don't know - I'm guessing not.

 

[Jason]

Spain would veto automatic Scottish membership of the EU because Spain is concerned about Catalonia and the Basque region breaking away from Spain. The former is a big chunk of Spain's economy, the latter a potential mini-state with a heritage of terrorist problems. Many other EU countries would be concerned at the possibility of break up of their nations. Bavaria? The Lombard League? Brittany? Flanders? We've seen the result of fragmentation in Yugoslavia and in many ways don't want the genie out of the bottle. Broadly the nation states work well.

 

[798686]

The EU's been quietly encouraging breakaway groups for quite a while now - possibly in the hope of gradually eroding national borders and weakening nation states within a more powerful Europe. grrr.

 

[D_Andreas Sukov]

smaller countries, with weaker economies favour the EU. Hense the EU encouraging the break up.

The Cunts

 

[123scotty]

A



The younger generation in Scotland may have different views on independence but I can't bring to mind a poll that looked at this. Most Scots have family members in England. The majority of train passengers bording trains in Scotland end up in England. The younger generation is the Easy Jet generation familiar with cheap air travel often to other parts of the UK. More young Scots are wearing kilts than a generation ago but as for wanting an independent Scotland I don't know - I'm guessing not.

when scotland becomes independent. there will not be border posts at carlisle, guard dogs or even a wall. nope nothing as in the rest of europe. nor is an independent scotland anti english. it is about one thing. putting scotland first. regeneration and not stagnation. smaller countries can act faster to market conditions. and could grow further within the eu framework.

 

[faceking]

I predict that the UK will leave the EU, Blair or not. Give it two years or so.

Agree... only a matter of time. Crap like the EU and UN... complete phooey. UK out of the EU and US out of the UN... one can only wish.

 

[123scotty]

Agree... only a matter of time. Crap like the EU and UN... complete phooey. UK out of the EU and US out of the UN... one can only wish.

ok the uk is out of everything now what. who do you sell to. who will invest here. learn to sign on the dole thats what will happen . its a hard world out there