Archbishop: Sharia law in UK 'seems unavoidable'

Drifterwood

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Dr. Williams has resurrected the question of the dilemma that people of faith face when the tenets of their faith are opposed to the law of the country.

Should we force them to subjugate their faith to the law of the land?

It is quite ironic really, because his official position is based upon a bloody history to resolve that issue firmly in favour of the State.

The further irony of his raising this issue at this time in the UK, is that there will be a resounding concensus that State comes first. Like it or lump it.
 

rimmer9

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Please God this doesn't go any further. The UK has always been far too accomodating to the extent of losing its own national identity. As many have already said - if they want Sharia Law then leave.

This is not only aimed at Moslems there is no room for any religious law in any society. Faith is not reality and therefore cannot be law.
 
D

deleted213967

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If your bloody Henry VIII had converted to Islam instead of creating a subsidiary of the Holy Roman Catholic Church...most of his wives would have died with their head on...

Sharia Law: 1 - Church of England: 0

:tongue:
 

Gillette

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Those who seek to deliberately kill or maim innocent people are the enemies of us all. There is no cause whatsoever that could possibly justify such barbarity."

Muslim Council of Britain declares 'condemnation is not enough' | Terror threat to Britain | Guardian Unlimited

In the context of the speech the 'those' referred to can only mean Muslim terrorists Gillette, and what was needed was for the Muslim Council to categorically state that they condemn all killing by terrorists, not for them to leave it in terms that were open to any type of interpretation.

I think that's a very restrictive interpretation of a universal sentiment. If you believe that "those" can only refer to muslim terrorists I assume you also believe he means "innocent" (your original objection) only by muslim standards, and "us all" only being all muslims.

"Those" can only mean what the person speaking them means when he says it. Please remember that your interpretation of it is only that. Interpretation.

Yes, the statement was made after a particular event. Yes, I believe that it was included in the sentiment. No, I do not believe that the wording is cause for suspicion.

Would you have the same misgivings about the word "innocent" being used if the same statement were made by any other world leader?
 

DC_DEEP

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Then I daresay you'll appreciate the irony that the US was founded by religious refugees who fled not only Britain's state religion, but its outright suppression of other religions.
That's not quite accurate, if you are referring to those who started the Plymouth Colony. Nor is it quite accurate if you are referring to the colonists who settled near the Hudson River, Jamestown, or St Petersburg.
Using Sharia law as a form of community based enforcement I have no problem (or little problem) with, after all that's what Christians etc do isn't it? Having Sharia 'law' supplant UK law or be equally enforceable alongside it, that I have a problem with.
I think that's what I was trying to say in a previous post... thanks for doing so more eloquently.
This is the UK. It isn't the Ira-kay. Or any other Muslim country. You choose to live in a country, you live by the rules (laws) of that country. You don't try and enforce your own laws upon another country.

Especially if they are crazy laws at odds with the modern laws of another country.
Ah, now we get to the crux of several different matters, don't we? It's fine for westerners to do it to them, (hell, they get our laws forced on them, and no one has even immigrated; we're doing it long-distance) but it's evil when they do it to us. I guess that's because our laws are so much superior to theirs.

This is precisely why I get so angry when I hear some idiot say, "those terrorists are attacking us because they are jealous of our freedom." I think it's more likely that they are angry and frustrated that western countries have invaded and occupied their countries, and set up puppet governments.

The western governments should make it crystal clear that sharia practices within communities is fine, as long as it is not in direct conflict with existing western law. But if they break the existing law, they will be accountable. If they don't like that concept, they do not have to immigrate.
 

B_ScaredLittleBoy

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I wasn't talking about occupation. I meant in terms of immigration. If you move to a country there are laws that you are supposed to abide. Not for you to forgo or change to your own taste.

It's not so much that our laws are superior but our laws are our laws. And if Sharia becomes law, then our laws aren't our laws. It sends out the wrong message.

This may be a taste of our own medicine according to DC but still, it's not good for the country or the people to be told that one set of peoples (foreigners) has a different, more lenient set of laws than another group of peoples (natives) living in the same country.

If we cater to foreigners before ourselves we will find chip shops and all the other good food gone. And being British will mean less and less. And British law will be a mongrel called British-Islamic-?-? law filled with double standards and holes.

I don't have any issue with foreigners btw but on this one issue I think national identity needs to be preserved and Sharia law is just another way that Britishness is being amalgamated into something unrecognisable.

Rimmer also makes a good point that faith has no basis in the reality of law. Even native faith, never mind the faith(s) of others.
 

Gonzo3

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I wasn't talking about occupation. I meant in terms of immigration. If you move to a country there are laws that you are supposed to abide. Not for you to forgo or change to your own taste.

It's not so much that our laws are superior but our laws are our laws. And if Sharia becomes law, then our laws aren't our laws. It sends out the wrong message.

This may be a taste of our own medicine according to DC but still, it's not good for the country or the people to be told that one set of peoples (foreigners) has a different, more lenient set of laws than another group of peoples (natives) living in the same country.

If we cater to foreigners before ourselves we will find chip shops and all the other good food gone. And being British will mean less and less. And British law will be a mongrel called British-Islamic-?-? law filled with double standards and holes.

I don't have any issue with foreigners btw but on this one issue I think national identity needs to be preserved and Sharia law is just another way that Britishness is being amalgamated into something unrecognisable.

Rimmer also makes a good point that faith has no basis in the reality of law. Even native faith, never mind the faith(s) of others.
..........The debate rolls on....




Friday February 8,

The Archbishop of Canterbury may be under fire from the entire British press, not to mention Gordon Brown's Cabinet, for saying that the adoption of some aspects of Sharia law in Britain seems 'unavoidable', but he has gained some new friends in Oxford. Among the comments he made on the BBC Radio's World At One, was a virtually unreported reference to a growing row in the university town over the local mosque's desire to broadcast, via loudspeaker, daily 'calls for prayer'.
Dr Williams said that while accommodation of a periodic call from the minaret at a mosque in Oxford might be possible, a daily call to prayer in "a mixed community which will never be homogeneously Muslim... doesn't seem to be appropriate".
Oxford Central Mosque applied before Christmas for permission to have a Mohammedan muezzin use a loudspeaker system to summon the faithful to prayer three times a day. The plan caused immediate uproar among local residents who claim that the sound would be inappropriately intrusive among Oxford's dreaming spires.
One resident told the Oxford Mail: "The proposal to issue a prayer call is very un-neighbourly, especially in a crowded urban space such as Oxford. I have lived in the Middle East and a prayer call has a very different feel to church bells and I personally found the noise extremely unpleasant, rather disturbing and very alien to the Western mindset."
Another, responding to the fact that the calls would include - in Arabic - the line, 'There is no God but Allah', said: "I do not want preaching at. It is not the tradition of this country or the tradition I subscribe to."
The Archbishop's words - if they get heard above the din surrounding his other comments - will come as some relief, especially after the novelist and critic Philip Hensher entered the debate, claiming in the Independent that Oxford was "famously self-absorbed" and asking: "Can it really be true that nobody would find charm, interest and perhaps even some beauty in the call to prayer echoing, once a week, across its domes and spires?"
Which is all very romantic, but it's not 'once a week' the mosque is asking for, it three times a day.
 

Rugbypup

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Please God this doesn't go any further. The UK has always been far too accomodating to the extent of losing its own national identity. As many have already said - if they want Sharia Law then leave.

This is not only aimed at Moslems there is no room for any religious law in any society. Faith is not reality and therefore cannot be law.

England has no national identity, not any more!

It's one of the reasons i left. If you say your English, your looked at as a nazi racist cunt. Its pollitically incorrect to have any national pride as an Englishman. We all have to be British, except the Irish, Welsh and Scotts, they can have their own laws, languages, governments, monies, ect.

The English have been PC'd to death for fear of offending the populations minorities.

I got bitched at by many people when i left, they said I was turning my back on England. Well, the truth is, I left because England turned its back on me.
 

DC_DEEP

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<...>
This may be a taste of our own medicine according to DC but still, it's not good for the country or the people to be told that one set of peoples (foreigners) has a different, more lenient set of laws than another group of peoples (natives) living in the same country.
<...>
Rimmer also makes a good point that faith has no basis in the reality of law. Even native faith, never mind the faith(s) of others.
I didn't really mean it in the "taste of our own medicine" sense, but more in the "it's ok for us, but not for them" sense.

Again, I'm agreeing that it's ridiculous for someone to emmigrate to a country, then expect that country to change its laws and customs to accomodate him. If the laws and customs of that country are intolerable, perhaps he shouldn't emmigrate there. I certainly would not move to Iran, Iraq, or Saudi Arabia, because I simply could not abide by their laws and customs, nor would I move there and expect them to change it to suit my needs.
 

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I think that's a very restrictive interpretation of a universal sentiment.

It might be restrictive Gillette but several of my friends, and I can't think we were alone in this, saw the statement as being equivocal, more or less 'you're free to kill anyone we don't view as innocent.' Muslims over here kick up a fuss about the houses of suspected Islamic terrorists being searched, it isn't little old white ladies who are going to be making bombs, it would go a long way to helping their cause if they kicked up less of a fuss and did more to root out fundamentalism within their religion.
 

DC_DEEP

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... it would go a long way to helping their cause if they kicked up less of a fuss and did more to root out fundamentalism within their religion.
or at least, radicalism. All the major players are guilty of this "sin of omission." I don't know their reasoning (for saying nothing at all), but it would seem to be to their advantage if all major sects of judaism, christianity, and islam loudly, publicly, and emphatically denounced the radical fringes of their professed faiths.
 

vince

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I am not in favor of any form of religion having any influence at all in government or justice. But it is ironic that the English, Spanish and other colonial powers did far worse to the native populations of the countries they moved to, conquered and occupied. It went on for centuries. They imposed their religions, suppressed the local cultures, stole the land and treasure and enslaved the people. We North Americans are a product of that period of time. What our ancestors did to their ancestors was far worse than anything they have done to us or even plan to do. It even continues today with churches sending missionaries to Africa, globalization and the war in Iraq.

I have no use whatsoever for sharia law. But forgive me if I have a hard time sympathizing with the problems you are having with integrating a relatively small number of immigrants into your countries. Of course two wrongs don't make a right, but it is ironic.
 

playainda336

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DC is right, though. This is an issue of "it's ok for us, but not for them."

If we move into a country, we want the country to accommodate us, because we're British or we're American and we have that right...well don't they as well? They're no better or worse than we, and we treat them like shit. So much so that we (as Americans) will invade their country and say, "You know what? Our way is better than yours...so you need to adopt our culture, and if not we'll bomb you. KTHNX!"

Oh God...why are all of your people such idiots...Christians and Muslims alike. (Because, you know, we worship the same God whether you like it or not. Christians and Muslims worship the God of Abraham.)
I wasn't talking about occupation. I meant in terms of immigration. If you move to a country there are laws that you are supposed to abide. Not for you to forgo or change to your own taste.
Yeah...tell that to the Native Americans when they came there. Tell that to the Aboriginals when they came there...or the Mayans when the Spaniards invaded.

They all had their own system of laws.

"Occupation" and "Immigration" are they that different if you really think about it?
 

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I am not in favor of any form of religion having any influence at all in government or justice. But it is ironic that the English, Spanish and other colonial powers did far worse to the native populations of the countries they moved to, conquered and occupied. It went on for centuries. They imposed their religions, suppressed the local cultures, stole the land and treasure and enslaved the people. We North Americans are a product of that period of time. What our ancestors did to their ancestors was far worse than anything they have done to us or even plan to do. It even continues today with churches sending missionaries to Africa, globalization and the war in Iraq.

I have no use whatsoever for sharia law. But forgive me if I have a hard time sympathizing with the problems you are having with integrating a relatively small number of immigrants into your countries. Of course two wrongs don't make a right, but it is ironic.

Erm... whats your point?

Yes the British Empire did a lot of shit the modern English arnt proud of. As did the Roman before them and the Vikings and Mongolians before them. Their have been many MANY global empires, many have caused damage to the nations they colonised or invaded, but we are not accountable for the actions of our forefathers. But it is are duty to learn from and not repeat their mistakes.

If we were, every American would still be under the warrent to be shot on sight for treachery to the crown of England, lol.

Only one thing is true of all empires... they fall, dramatically, painfully and many also believe America to be the last great empire on earth. Take it from the Brits guys, dont get comfy at the top of the food chain, it aint a periment post, lol.
 

playainda336

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Erm... whats your point?
I think the point is exactly how you stated it. Times change, people change, and cultures adapt to that change whether you like it or not.

Deal with it. Correct?
 

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the problem is that accommodating muslims in the Western world would be to turn back thousands of years of advanced enlightenment, so would be a regression ... values are not relative
 

playainda336

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This is the UK. It isn't the Ira-kay. Or any other Muslim country. You choose to live in a country, you live by the rules (laws) of that country. You don't try and enforce your own laws upon another country.

Especially if they are crazy laws at odds with the modern laws of another country.

We shouldn't bend over backwards for Muslims. I'd say implementing exclusive Sharia Law is bending over backwards so far as to break your back. It's ridiculous.
"This is Iraq, this isn't the You Essay. Or any other Christian country. You choose to live in a country, you live by the rules (laws) of that country. You don't try and enforce your own laws upon another country.

Especially if they are crazy laws at odds with the modern laws of another country.

We shouldn't bend over backwards for Christians. I'd say implementing exclusive US Constitutional Law is bending over backwards so far as to break your back. It's ridiculous."

And this is why every country in the Middle East hates us.
the problem is that accommodating muslims in the Western world would be to turn back thousands of years of advanced enlightenment, so would be a regression ... values are not relative
Well...first. I was being facetious. Secondly...I think we're talking about UK not the US, right? We're the Western world...right?

-shrugs-

I don't agree with Sharia law by all means. But on the same token, I find it quite ironic what's happening in the UK. Someone else is occupying them and forcing their law upon them. And they are pissed. It's kind of the "sins of the father" kinda deal. But if the majority wants Sharia law, then Sharia law they get. It's democracy, right?