Are Americans Hostile to Knowledge?

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deleted213967

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Excerpts from an article at http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/14/books/14dumb.html


Ms. Pickler threw up both hands and looked at the large blackboard perplexed. “I thought Europe was a country,” she said. Playing it safe, she chose to copy the answer offered by one of the genuine fifth graders: Hungary. “Hungry?” she said, eyes widening in disbelief. “That’s a country? I’ve heard of Turkey. But Hungry? I’ve never heard of it.”

1. Embarassing for her (and for us to some extent), but her role in society, as a "Plastic", is not to learn foreign places by rote (hardly a sign of intelligence) but rather to share her natural grace with us (while supplies last), which she does pretty well.

2. Isn't the fifth-grader American as well? We can't generalize then.


But now, Ms. Jacoby said, something different is happening: anti-intellectualism (the attitude that “too much learning can be a dangerous thing”) and anti-rationalism (“the idea that there is no such thing as evidence or fact, just opinion”) have fused in a particularly insidious way.

Not only are citizens ignorant about essential scientific, civic and cultural knowledge, she said, but they also don’t think it matters.

3. Yeah, yeah, yeah...More self-flagellation...

... but why do our elite universities still attract the world's best and brightest? Let's be honest, getting into Harvard, Stanford etc. has never been so hard. The bar is much higher today than it was when mechanically reciting countries and irregular verbs was in vogue.


She pointed to a 2006 National Geographic poll that found nearly half of 18- to 24-year-olds don’t think it is necessary or important to know where countries in the news are located. So more than three years into the Iraq war, only 23 percent of those with some college could locate Iraq, Iran, Saudi Arabia and Israel on a map.

4. More power to those of us who know, but I'd trade that Google-in-2-seconds information for expertise on how to spot roadside IEDs in some of those countries.

“This is just like Pearl Harbor,” one of the men said.

The other asked, “What is Pearl Harbor?”

“That was when the Vietnamese dropped bombs in a harbor, and it started the Vietnam War,” the first man replied.

5. Lame. But again as long as the Pearl Harbor and the Vietnamese schmocks know their shit well (index-based derivatives trading?) and contribute to society, is it such a tragedy?

6. Don't get me wrong, I am mostly playing devil's advocate here yet I tend to agree with Montaigne:

"Mieux vaut une tête bien faite qu'une tête bien pleine."

"Mieux vaut une tête bien faite qu'une tête bien pleine."
 

vince

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That is not ignorance, most were never taught this as Japan has a tradition of revisionism or omitting information from history. As do most nations.
I disagree with your terminology. It is ignorance. Ignorance is simply not knowing. Being unaware through lack of information or education.

Stupidity is another thing. It can be called the state of being willfully ignorant. Or not having the ability to profit from experience and lacking understanding.

Many people use the terms interchangeably as synonyms in everyday language. But if the topic is knowledge and learning then we better be accurate in the usage.
 

D_Fiona_Farvel

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I disagree with your terminology. It is ignorance. Ignorance is simply not knowing. Being unaware through lack of information or education.

Stupidity is another thing. It can be called the state of being willfully ignorant. Or not having the ability to profit from experience and lacking understanding.

Many people use the terms interchangeably as synonyms in everyday language. But if the topic is knowledge and learning then we better be accurate in the usage.
Ok.
In my argument the Japanese are unaware due to the nature of teaching in their country. In the U.S., when considering basic elementary school level of knowledge such as states of the union, basic rights and civics, many are willfully ignorant.

ETA: I'll also add in a nod to your previous post that there is an issue with basic math as well.
 

What to do?

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Ask someone in Hungary to find Illinois on a map, and not many of them will be able to do it.
However, they can probably name Washington D.C. as the capital of the US.:yup: Honestly, my friends from Hungary have told me that the educational system is much more difficult than the US. My college Chemistry/Geography professor was from Hungary and she said much of the stuff she was teaching on a college level (Freshman and Sophomore) here was taught at the middle school level in Hungary.
Or make a blanket unqualified statement that is clearly false and yet jives with certain common prejudices, like, "Americans are dumb," and sit back and watch all the fools who agree.
I don't see this as being an "Americans are dumb" thread, but rather an indication that American educational focuses need to be broadened and retention made more important.
:05:
 

Drifterwood

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Please let this thread be about anti-intellectualism. Anti-intellectualism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Right wing or authoritarian governments tend to be anti intellectual and anti academic. They want the masses to have a distrust of those too clever by half academic types. Those who might question and oppose the government.

It's about control.

Does this fit the neo-cons? You tell me.
 

ZOS23xy

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TV isn't always the answer to the poor awareness of today's youth. And not video games. And not drugs.

I have an old book titled BONERS, which is a compilation of bad thinking compiled from students test papers and writing. Wherein you can learn "A Mayor is a he horse." or "A man who marries twice commits bigotry." The copyright date on the book is 1930.

Perhaps we could blame radio programs. Or go back to River City and blame the pool halls.

It's an on going problem, not likely to get better unless people undertake the responsibility to educate their children and not assume the state will do it. And considering the current fool in office, there's not likely to be any sweeping changes in this situation
 
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I don't see what the article has to do with the subject heading. I thought this was going to be something interesting about the disturbing trend toward anti-intellectualism in the USA. Instead, it's just another golly-jee-Americans-are-stupid thread.

Anyway

Yes, many Americans are reprehensibly ignorant about a great many things, including history and, especially, world geography.

But so are many other people. Americans have contributed a great many things to the world but ignorance and stupidity are not cultural innovations we can take credit for.

Ask a large group of young people in Japan what significant event took place in August of 1945, and many of them will have no idea.

Ask someone in Hungary to find Illinois on a map, and not many of them will be able to do it.

Friend request me on facebook and challenge me to a world geography IQ challenge and I'll beat you.

Or make a blanket unqualified statement that is clearly false and yet jives with certain common prejudices, like, "Americans are dumb," and sit back and watch all the fools who agree.

You said a mouthful!!

Now Americans are the new target for several reasons I think. Poor choices that have been made during this current administration have not helped us much at all.

There are stupid people everywhere in the world but we all know Americans don't have the monopoly on stupidity.

This is why I use web resources to inform myself and educate myself. I read the news, do my best to stay informed and if I need to know where Rangoon is (Which i do) there is always Google. If anything, this makes me a resourceful individual not a stupid American.

Kelly Pickler while not the sharpest tool in the shed could probably tell you a little about life experience. Since having a parent in prison works it's own unique challenges in a family. Now she is working and not a barefoot and pregnant welfare mom living in trailer park like so many I know.

I remember it was cool watching Goldie Hawn play the dumb blonde on Laugh In when I was a kid and I don't seem to recall then all of the "Everyone in America is stupid" rhetoric going around on the level it is now.

Bandwagons. No thanks. I'll walk. Write a book about how generous and kind the American people CAN be instead, or how those of us did not want the war and the reasons why.
 

DC_DEEP

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I don't see what the article has to do with the subject heading. I thought this was going to be something interesting about the disturbing trend toward anti-intellectualism in the USA. Instead, it's just another golly-jee-Americans-are-stupid thread.

Anyway

Yes, many Americans are reprehensibly ignorant about a great many things, including history and, especially, world geography.

But so are many other people. Americans have contributed a great many things to the world but ignorance and stupidity are not cultural innovations we can take credit for.
You beat me to it.

Yes, there are stupid Americans, and ignorant Americans, but there are stupid and ignorant people everywhere. One of my partner's favorite axioms: "Just remember, half the people in the world are below average intelligence."

As for the title of the thread, it's hard to argue that the current "powers that be" in this country are not hostile to knowledge. That's part and parcel of their modus operandum.
 

Osiris

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I'll cop to not having been aware of what Juneteenth was before I Googled it.

My bad...

A lot of people don't. No biggie. Now you know! :smile:

You beat me to it.

Yes, there are stupid Americans, and ignorant Americans, but there are stupid and ignorant people everywhere. One of my partner's favorite axioms: "Just remember, half the people in the world are below average intelligence."

As for the title of the thread, it's hard to argue that the current "powers that be" in this country are not hostile to knowledge. That's part and parcel of their modus operandum.

Absolutely right and I'll even take that a bit further.

Our youth have lost their focus. Case in point:

Ask a kid who Maya Angelou is and you will probably get back Maya who?

Ask a kid who Kanye West is and you will get a sermon on modern hip hop hero worship.

How can we expect our youth to take ANY sort of account in education when the current government cuts spending on education (just got notice my 5 year old's school will be closing and of this year) to alot money to pay hig dollar military contractors for a war that NEVER should have been waged?

Our amazingly gifted and intelligent 17 year old dropped to butt stupid over the weekend. When confronted with his current rash of absences from school, his reply to his mother and I was:

"My plan is to drop out, go to the Vo-Tech to get my GED and get a job. Uncle Dan didn't go to college and he makes good money."

Uncle Dan does say college is NOT necessary (I still want to pop him in the chops for that one) and he makes good money because he is a charismatic East Suburban Seattle Realtor. My child seems to think his acting abilities will guarantee his "wealth". Society has started to worship the almighty buck and glorify certain artists who do not really espouse education. No wonder kids have no idea of just HOW important an education is.

Curt Cobain commits suicide and millions mourn, grieve, and act like the world has ended. Norman Mailer dies and not a whimper.

Granted Cobain's death was untimely, tragic, and by his own hand, but who made the more crucial cerebral contribution? The guy who sang Smells Like Teen Spirit or the man who spent his life writing novels, getting people to read, inspiring thought, and winning a Pulitzer Prize?

At least the answer to that question doesn't require an education...

It would require someone to think or read though.
 

DC_DEEP

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I do wish people would stop confusing ignorance and stupidity. Neither is an excuse for the other.
I concur.

For those ignorant of the differences:

Ignorant is lacking in knowledge, training; uninformed; unaware.

Stupid is lacking ordinary quickness or keenness of mind; unintelligent.

Dumb is lacking power of speech; inarticulate.

One can have any one, or any combination, or none of these qualities. A person can be very bright, intelligent, and still be ignorant.
 

ruperty

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As mentioned, half of the world is of below average intelligence. Unfortunately, the average is in decline. Almost everyone in Western civilisation has access to the internet (whether it be at home, internet cafes or libraries), and in turn, they have access to near infinite information. They have televisions with around 1000 channels, with something on offer for everyone.

The problem (not so bad problem) is that people have the choice of what they want to know. They can watch National Geographic, or they can watch MTV; they can watch the History channel, or they can watch ITV1 (U.S. equivalent possibly Fox?). They can read tabloids or they can read broadsheets. They can visit wikipedia, or they can visit LPSG. It's entirely up to the individual whether they want to learn something new, or simply be entertained. Current affairs are viewed by the majority in colourful tabloids with a picture of Britney on the front page.

I can guarantee that people in Britain are just as ignorant towards knowledge as any American. This thread should've been about the Western attitude towards modern policies.

Governments don't want a public who are capable of questioning their movements. Just keep entertaining us 24 hours a day and we'll keep quiet ;)
 
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deleted15807

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It never fails to astonish me that what passes for news here is mindless, repetitive and focused primarily on celebrities. When vastly greater swaths of news time are spent on some celebrity's being sent to jail as opposed to informing Americans how our Constitution is being undermined and subverted by the Bush administration, not to mention what's happening of significance elsewhere in the world, it reveals exactly why too many citizens are ignorant of not only the rest of the world but of their own country.

With half the people polled in a reputable national poll believing that evolution and natural selection are myths and that "creationism" is worthy of being taught in the nation's schools, it's to be expected that America is becoming dumbed-down under the influence of the irrationality of religion, particularly fundamentalist religion. It boggles the mind that one of the leading Republican candidates for the presidency holds blinkered views like this and is a former fundamentalist preacher in the bargain. Imagine a guy like that in the Oval Office or just a heartbeat way from the presidency.

So why are so many American actually and properly perceived as being hostile to global knowledge, indeed, knowledge essential to a nation's survival? Start by taking an honest look at what purports to be "news" here and at the unhealthy dominance of religion in American life. More could be said on other malign influences, but start with those just mentioned. Prediction: if America continues on its present path, look for it to become a second-or-third rate nation no longer looked to as worthy of emulation.



Any dictator would admire the uniformity and obedience of the U.S. media.Noam Chomsky
 

D_Tintagel_Demondong

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I believe that this is, to a large extent, a socioeconomic issue.

Some of the brightest people on this site are American, but so are some of the dullest. This thread is an ideal example. I just don't see this kind of disparity in other western countries. America's population is becoming polarized between an educated elite and an uneducated poor.

A good education can be incredibly expensive in America. I am almost sickened when I hear of Americans pejoratively refer to state schools. Is an Ivy League education really significantly better? If so, then that's a shame as few Americans can afford to go to Harvard.

When I visit the U.S. I tend to avoid the south. It seems the further south I go, the more ignorant people I find. I am very uncomfortable around people who think that someone is a freak if they use a fancy $2 word now and then. These people really only solidify my belief in the Holy Trinity of poverty, ignorance and religion: where you find two of these factors, you usually find the third.

"Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." -- Martin Luther King.

Friend request me on facebook and challenge me to a world geography IQ challenge and I'll beat you.
Doubtful.
 

vince

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I don't think most people are inherently hostile to knowledge. Many are inherently lazy though. It seems that many people only want enough knowledge to be able to function in their own little world. They don't want to know because don't need to know.

I also think that this is a generational problem. The anti-intellectualism attitudes started to become noticeable in the sixties and seventies. I'm thinking Spiro Agnew and those types who put down people who thought differently as anti-American or "nattering nabobs of negativity". It became more acceptable to be a dumb-ass. Kids who grew up in the sixties had children in the eighties. Those kids are now having kids. As each generation becomes more ignorant they are less and less likely to be setting a good example for their kids.

I don't blame the schools as much as I do parents. It takes constant and consistent effort to raise kids. Kids are little sponges and will absorb whatever you give them. They need to be exposed to the right kind of material. If you give them MTV instead of National Geographic, guess what they'll pick up? When they grow up they'll be more interested in "Oscar Night" than in who will make the best President or why people are dying in Darfur. If asked what should be done about the mid-east they'll tell you something like "all them fucking arabs should be bombed back to the stone age".

TV has made it cool to be ignorant, but street smart. Al Bundy, Homer Simpson and Archie Bunker are admired characters. (There must be worse ones, I'm just not exposed to much U.S. TV) Reality TV, MTV, and the rest are EASY to watch. Just park your brain under the couch and relax. The McNeal-Leaher News Hour is not easy.

I think western society is becoming richer and lazier with each generation. I live in a second-world country. It has a poor educational system, but it seems to me that the people here are way more interested and knowledgeable about world events, world history, and geography than the average American. I put it down to laziness and the media feeding the population what they will consume.
 

DC_DEEP

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It never fails to astonish me that what passes for news here is mindless, repetitive and focused primarily on celebrities. When vastly greater swaths of news time are spent on some celebrity's being sent to jail as opposed to informing Americans how our Constitution is being undermined and subverted by the Bush administration, not to mention what's happening of significance elsewhere in the world, it reveals exactly why too many citizens are ignorant of not only the rest of the world but of their own country.
You and I often have our disagreements, but we agree solidly on this. It's a sad state of affairs when athletes have multi-million dollar contracts, and a staggering number of our educators receive pay hovering at the poverty level; and Faux (pronounced: Fox) News would rather report on Britney's latest trip to rehab than real news and current events.

I believe that this is, to a large extent, a socioeconomic issue.
<...>
A good education can be incredibly expensive in America. I am almost sickened when I hear of Americans pejoratively refer to state schools. Is an Ivy League education really significantly better? If so, then that's a shame as few Americans can afford to go to Harvard.
I received a fine education in the public school I attended in the south, and the state school I attended isn't well known, but it is top quality. My freshman year, I did attend a better known, larger, "better reputation" school, but the quality sucked. The professors might well have been teaching to a video camera, and even at semester's end, none of them even knew any of the students' names. In the smaller state school, the professors actually cared. The education was excellent and personal.
When I visit the U.S. I tend to avoid the south. It seems the further south I go, the more ignorant people I find. I am very uncomfortable around people who think that someone is a freak if they use a fancy $2 word now and then. These people really only solidify my belief in the Holy Trinity of poverty, ignorance and religion: where you find two of these factors, you usually find the third.
Most of the south is actually much more cosmopolitan than the midwest. I would much rather spend time in Georgia or Arkansas or Louisiana than in Ohio or Indiana or Illinois or Wisconsin or Michigan.
 

Osiris

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You and I often have our disagreements, but we agree solidly on this. It's a sad state of affairs when athletes have multi-million dollar contracts, and a staggering number of our educators receive pay hovering at the poverty level; and Faux (pronounced: Fox) News would rather report on Britney's latest trip to rehab than real news and current events.

I agree, but I am more sickened by the sheer amount of money some criminal middle school drop outs get for spewing hate ridden lyrics and screaming about "The Mann" keeping them down. How can you be down in a $5,000,000 house, driving a $365,000 Bentley, and pulling in about $100,000 weekly?

The teacher:

Struggling to keep payments on a $200,000 home, driving a few year old Toyota, Honda, etc., and making chicken scratch for a salary.

In a society where salary is truly based on what you have to offer, the rapper would be on the street with his can and the teacher would be living in Trump Tower.

I received a fine education in the public school I attended in the south, and the state school I attended isn't well known, but it is top quality. My freshman year, I did attend a better known, larger, "better reputation" school, but the quality sucked. The professors might well have been teaching to a video camera, and even at semester's end, none of them even knew any of the students' names. In the smaller state school, the professors actually cared. The education was excellent and personal.

There are some bad school systems out there, but there are more excellent public school systems than there are crappy ones. Having gone to private school for K-5, then public school 5-12, then to an Ivy League school, then to a Community College. I have to agree. I got the much better education for free. All the money my parents spent on the "posh" schooling? Total waste of money.

Most of the south is actually much more cosmopolitan than the midwest. I would much rather spend time in Georgia or Arkansas or Louisiana than in Ohio or Indiana or Illinois or Wisconsin or Michigan.

You had at least better be amenable to a trip to Kansas City, Missouri for Blues and Barbeque otherwise my friend I'll be meeting you in the schoolyard after school. :wink:
 

jason_els

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Oh shit. Now I'm going to have write some horrible long essay nobody will read explaining American anti-intellectualism goes back to Plymouth colony and is backed by a number of social factors.

Don't say I didn't warn you.
 

B_VinylBoy

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I hate to say it but I think its true. And getting worse. And there's a reason.

Many times, I feel that people are getting dumber each day. But I won't put the blame entirely on television because there's plenty of things worth watching besides "America's Next Top Model" and "I Love New York" that stimulate the brain and educate as well.

Shows like "Are You Smarter Than A 5th Grader" do a good job in illustrating how people selectively forget things that are told to them. All of the questions on that show are not terribly difficult. They're all elementary school level questions so an adult should have no problems remembering any of this stuff. We just decide not to remember certain things that we feel are not relevant to our daily lives. If you're just a cashier at a supermarket, why should you care if Chuck Yeager was the first to break the sound barrier? If you're an accountant for a bank, why should you even remember that Marie Curie, with help of her husband & lab partner, discovered Polonium & Radium? In an attempt to try and make our lives easier, we try to treat knowledge as if it was data being analyzed on a computer. Constantly applying the GIGO procedure to our brains, till it gets almost barren of any real knowledge at all.

As adults, I think we get so wrapped up in our regular routines to survive that we tend to overthink certain situations and fail to use basic common sense. A friend of mine lives at a home with a complex buzzer system where you're supposed to press the number next to their last name and then a button ro ring the bell. He always has the hardest time getting food delivered to their home! Many times I've heard him say to the restaurant, "The delivery person has to press two buttons at the door. First, they press the button with number 8 on it. After that, they press the button with the picture of a bell on it." Every delivery person does the same thing... "But the bell is 8, isn't it", "Ring bell #8, right"? Completely overthinking the situation, instead of going by the exact instructions that were given. They always wind up calling the house saying, "I'm at the door. What do I press?"

Ironically, I put my 9 year old nephew at the door and gave him those exact instructions. And wouldn't you know it, he rang the doorbell. :biggrin1: