Are people born evil?

michael_3165

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WARNING: SENSITIVE/UPSETTING INFORMATION - please note that this post contain potentially upsetting details of harm to children, sexual assault and murder.

Child-killer Lucy Letby was convicted today of murdering 7 babies and attempting to murder 6 others. She will get a full life tariff with no chance of parole and will die in prison.

This got me thinking, are people "born" evil or do you think they are "created?"

My thoughts:

For 20+ years I've worked with serial killers, rapists, arsonists, molesters, armed robbers and cannibalistic types. I have met perhaps the worst types of people (outside of criminal behaviour) - psychopaths, narcissistic personalities, you name it. One thing that has always fascinated me is whether these people are "born" bad or whether they are "made" bad. I won't get into the whole philosophy of good versus bad as that is a whole other topic.

In Letby's case it sounds as though she came from a relatively "normal" background - albeit one where he father turned up to have a conflict with the hospital when she was first suspended from work. What drives someone who had no (obvious) traumas or abuse to end up killing so many children, apparently without remorse?

Evidence suggests that there is a minority of people who are born with damaged amygdala (the emotion control centre of the brain) and faulty pre-frontal cortex (impulse control/gratification related part of the brain). They did brain scans and found that these people have very narrow range of emotion (mainly anger) and literally cannot feel what other people feel. They can, however, mimic what other people feel - watching another person's responses and then copying those responses. If often feels shallow and false and can seem incongruent/odd when they respond in ways outside of what is socially acceptable. I suspect this is how she conned so many people into seeing her as normal.

There are also issues with these individuals around identification of consequences. They can logically see a consequence and yet when in the heat of the moment it is somehow disconnected from them as an individual. The "it can't happen to me" syndrome.

At the same time not everyone with these problems end up being serial killers. A fair number end up in prison though (70-80+% of the overall male prison population). This then points toward a narcissistic streak (I don't use that term lightly, it is overused in 99% of cases) - a genuine belief that she was above the law, that she could act with immunity from the consequences. The only time she showed any real emotion (other than the doctor she fantasised about) was when she was told she had a life tariff, though I suspect that was anger being presented as upset (e.g., "how dare they hold me to account!")

Something is, however, missing here and I am curious about the family dynamics. There has to be more to this lady than we know about and I would not be surprised if she has experienced terrible things, though that isn't to condone her behaviour. Nobody with any human empathy would do what she has done, so that in itself is a problem. That said, she knows the consequences of her actions and shouldn't be sent to a secure psychiatric unit, she must remain in prison.

So in short, my take is one of nature AND nurture. These types of people have a biological tendency toward offending and anti-social behaviours - having a missing or damaged part of the brain that regulates emotion and behaviour. And as many have this problem without serial killing, I suspect she has a fair amount of environmental baggage. Either way, I suspect she will try to escape the consequences if another inmate doesn't get there first.

Thoughts?
 
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rbkwp

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yes

more so than the bs gay's etc,we have been indoctrinated by idiots

and,they usually get worse as they age

china,and other countries had/have a right idea

cause ive grown bitter


bc the truth's out there,but perfect's say/do nothing

wars/yes,thick bugger's
 

Silmende

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Interesting thread.

I think most people are born good, and those born evil are a very small minority. I also think, the environment can either bring out the best or the worst in people, making their actions different than their nature.
 

englad

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The answer is both.

Sociopaths tend to be made and psychopaths are born.

The most common reason (but not the only one) that people murder is psychopathy (although certain mental illnesses like paranoid schizophrenia can motivate people to do that as well).

Most psychopaths aren't violent (because they know violence wouldn't provide them with a benefit). Violent psychopaths tend to combine innate psychopathy with a destructive upbringing (often including abuse in the upbringing). Non-violent psychopaths tend to gravitate towards careers that give them power, finance, media and sales being examples that have a high proportion of psychopaths.

With nurses (and doctors to an extent) who kill specifically, it often comes back to "playing god" or Munchhausen's by proxy.
 
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bravesoldier

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It depends on what you believe. I believe in the biblical stance. After the fall of man everyone was born into a sinful existence. Thus, comes all of these things. Thank God most are not ax murderers and killers, even though there are quite a few out there.

Not trying to be an ass, but I'm not open to a debate. If anyone responds with a debate feel free, but it won't get a response. Just saying..

Good day.
 
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seventiesdemon

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WARNING: SENSITIVE/UPSETTING INFORMATION - please note that this post contain potentially upsetting details of harm to children, sexual assault and murder.

Child-killer Lucy Letby was convicted today of murdering 7 babies and attempting to murder 6 others. She will get a full life tariff with no chance of parole and will die in prison.

This got me thinking, are people "born" evil or do you think they are "created?"

My thoughts:

For 20+ years I've worked with serial killers, rapists, arsonists, molesters, armed robbers and cannibalistic types. I have met perhaps the worst types of people (outside of criminal behaviour) - psychopaths, narcissistic personalities, you name it. One thing that has always fascinated me is whether these people are "born" bad or whether they are "made" bad. I won't get into the whole philosophy of good versus bad as that is a whole other topic.

In Letby's case it sounds as though she came from a relatively "normal" background - albeit one where he father turned up to have a conflict with the hospital when she was first suspended from work. What drives someone who had no (obvious) traumas or abuse to end up killing so many children, apparently without remorse?

Evidence suggests that there is a minority of people who are born with damaged amygdala (the emotion control centre of the brain) and faulty pre-frontal cortex (impulse control/gratification related part of the brain). They did brain scans and found that these people have very narrow range of emotion (mainly anger) and literally cannot feel what other people feel. They can, however, mimic what other people feel - watching another person's responses and then copying those responses. If often feels shallow and false and can seem incongruent/odd when they respond in ways outside of what is socially acceptable. I suspect this is how she conned so many people into seeing her as normal.

There are also issues with these individuals around identification of consequences. They can logically see a consequence and yet when in the heat of the moment it is somehow disconnected from them as an individual. The "it can't happen to me" syndrome.

At the same time not everyone with these problems end up being serial killers. A fair number end up in prison though (70-80+% of the overall male prison population). This then points toward a narcissistic streak (I don't use that term lightly, it is overused in 99% of cases) - a genuine belief that she was above the law, that she could act with immunity from the consequences. The only time she showed any real emotion (other than the doctor she fantasised about) was when she was told she had a life tariff, though I suspect that was anger being presented as upset (e.g., "how dare they hold me to account!")

Something is, however, missing here and I am curious about the family dynamics. There has to be more to this lady than we know about and I would not be surprised if she has experienced terrible things, though that isn't to condone her behaviour. Nobody with any human empathy would do what she has done, so that in itself is a problem. That said, she knows the consequences of her actions and shouldn't be sent to a secure psychiatric unit, she must remain in prison.

So in short, my take is one of nature AND nurture. These types of people have a biological tendency toward offending and anti-social behaviours - having a missing or damaged part of the brain that regulates emotion and behaviour. And as many have this problem without serial killing, I suspect she has a fair amount of environmental baggage. Either way, I suspect she will try to escape the consequences if another inmate doesn't get there first.

Thoughts?
Are people born with mental illness? Yes.

Are people born Evil? No.

Are people born as Saints? No.

Are people born with compassion to help others? Yes

Are people born to choose? Yes

It wasn't a snake in the Apple tree...............it was fermented fruit. Humankind first invention........Alcohol. Monkey's, Elephants and birds were dropping and rolling around pissing themselves before we rocked up. Eve, well, she was the first human to be under the influence............and there you have it.....well partly.

Humans have always mimicked nature to evolve. Pretty sure we have learned from every creature on the planet from bird to whale on how to explore and evolve on this planet. What keeps them aloft, under the ocean, to survive in the cold, and in the heat. We have used and abused them and given very little back to them.

We betta wake up. Just saying. :)
 
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rbkwp

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super glad im not a c......c

would shatter myb 'yes' belirf

perhaps soe ibgherit,or choose learned behaviors
like the bs ilegal proffesion
 

seventiesdemon

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super glad im not a c......c

would shatter myb 'yes' belirf

perhaps soe ibgherit,or choose learned behaviors
like the bs ilegal proffesion
To be honest RB...as a human I have a million ideas passing through my head, which, does not make me feel special.
We all have a million ideas passing through our heads. The trick is to capture them. :)


Now we say it is the first in recorded history.....Okay. But Albert Einstein was above average...Stephen Hawking? They were way above average. Yet......today for some reason....we are all average. How fucking boring would that be?

Madame Curie. ....Mickey Lee....:) Thinking they be on par :)
 
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seventiesdemon

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To be honest RB...as a human I have a million ideas passing through my head, which, does not make me feel special.
We all have a million ideas passing through our heads. The trick is to capture them. :)


Now we say it is the first in recorded history.....Okay. But Albert Einstein was above average...Stephen Hawking? They were way above average. Yet......today for some reason....we are all average. How fucking boring would that be?

Madame Curie. ....Mickey Lee....:) Thinking they be on par :)
A moment in time.
 
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rbkwp

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actually

feel very sorry for that very seniir c carduial,in aus recently released
continually harrassed by your abc channell

fortuately supported by 1 at skytv/au

g pell,was his name
was emblazoned ww,so i mention him here

g9ood night,as you say/sign off
 

halcyondays

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Of course not. As a species we are far more caring and cooperative than we are violent and destructive. Proof? There are 8 billion of us on the planet. When I was born we had just passed 3 billion.

As imperfect as it is we cannot help loving and caring for each other. This is instinctual in our species. :heart:

I'm glad you brought up the issue of brain science. In 1966 there was a mass shooting in Austin, Texas--the first I remember from childhood. After killing his wife and mother a 25 year old man named Charles Whitman shot and killed 15 people from the top of the University of Texas Tower before being killed by police. He wounded 31. The autopsy revealed a tumor in his brain near the amygdala which might explain his unusually violent behavior. He knew he had problems and had sought psychiatric care well in advance of that horrific event. :broken_heart:

Nurture? Whitman's father regretted having been a strict disciplinarian with his son but it's important to remember that the vast majority of people who grow up with strict parents do not become killers or even excessively violent.

MRI, CT and PET scans did not exist in 1966 but x-rays did. Would a regular x-ray of Whitman's brain have helped? Would surgical removal of the tumor so deep in the brain been possible at the time? IDK

I don't know if Letby has had a full psych eval and brain scans. You are already aware that missing, damaged and underdeveloped areas of the brain may cause this kind of behavior. Maybe we'll learn more about her case in the future. We have learned so much about the brain but have a long long way to go.
 
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seventiesdemon

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Of course not. As a species we are far more caring and cooperative than we are violent and destructive. Proof? There are 8 billion of us on the planet. When I was born we had just passed 3 billion.

As imperfect as it is we cannot help loving and caring for each other. This is instinctual in our species. :heart:

I'm glad you brought up the issue of brain science. In 1966 there was a mass shooting in Austin, Texas--the first I remember from childhood. After killing his wife and mother a 25 year old man named Charles Whitman shot and killed 15 people from the top of the University of Texas Tower before being killed by police. He wounded 31. The autopsy revealed a tumor in his brain near the amygdala which might explain his unusually violent behavior. He knew he had problems and had sought psychiatric care well in advance of that horrific event. :broken_heart:

Nurture? Whitman's father regretted having been a strict disciplinarian with his son but it's important to remember that the vast majority of people who grow up with strict parents do not become killers or even excessively violent.

MRI, CT and PET scans did not exist in 1966 but x-rays did. Would a regular x-ray of Whitman's brain have helped? Would surgical removal of the tumor so deep in the brain been possible at the time? IDK

I don't know if Letby has had a full psych eval and brain scans. You are already aware that missing, damaged and underdeveloped areas of the brain may cause this kind of behavior. Maybe we'll learn more about her case in the future. We have learned so much about the brain but have a long long way to go.
Hello.
 

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WARNING: SENSITIVE/UPSETTING INFORMATION - please note that this post contain potentially upsetting details of harm to children, sexual assault and murder.

Child-killer Lucy Letby was convicted today of murdering 7 babies and attempting to murder 6 others. She will get a full life tariff with no chance of parole and will die in prison.

This got me thinking, are people "born" evil or do you think they are "created?"

My thoughts:

For 20+ years I've worked with serial killers, rapists, arsonists, molesters, armed robbers and cannibalistic types. I have met perhaps the worst types of people (outside of criminal behaviour) - psychopaths, narcissistic personalities, you name it. One thing that has always fascinated me is whether these people are "born" bad or whether they are "made" bad. I won't get into the whole philosophy of good versus bad as that is a whole other topic.

In Letby's case it sounds as though she came from a relatively "normal" background - albeit one where he father turned up to have a conflict with the hospital when she was first suspended from work. What drives someone who had no (obvious) traumas or abuse to end up killing so many children, apparently without remorse?

Evidence suggests that there is a minority of people who are born with damaged amygdala (the emotion control centre of the brain) and faulty pre-frontal cortex (impulse control/gratification related part of the brain). They did brain scans and found that these people have very narrow range of emotion (mainly anger) and literally cannot feel what other people feel. They can, however, mimic what other people feel - watching another person's responses and then copying those responses. If often feels shallow and false and can seem incongruent/odd when they respond in ways outside of what is socially acceptable. I suspect this is how she conned so many people into seeing her as normal.

There are also issues with these individuals around identification of consequences. They can logically see a consequence and yet when in the heat of the moment it is somehow disconnected from them as an individual. The "it can't happen to me" syndrome.

At the same time not everyone with these problems end up being serial killers. A fair number end up in prison though (70-80+% of the overall male prison population). This then points toward a narcissistic streak (I don't use that term lightly, it is overused in 99% of cases) - a genuine belief that she was above the law, that she could act with immunity from the consequences. The only time she showed any real emotion (other than the doctor she fantasised about) was when she was told she had a life tariff, though I suspect that was anger being presented as upset (e.g., "how dare they hold me to account!")

Something is, however, missing here and I am curious about the family dynamics. There has to be more to this lady than we know about and I would not be surprised if she has experienced terrible things, though that isn't to condone her behaviour. Nobody with any human empathy would do what she has done, so that in itself is a problem. That said, she knows the consequences of her actions and shouldn't be sent to a secure psychiatric unit, she must remain in prison.

So in short, my take is one of nature AND nurture. These types of people have a biological tendency toward offending and anti-social behaviours - having a missing or damaged part of the brain that regulates emotion and behaviour. And as many have this problem without serial killing, I suspect she has a fair amount of environmental baggage. Either way, I suspect she will try to escape the consequences if another inmate doesn't get there first.

Thoughts?
I believe it depends, but I also believe for me personally I was 100% born evil. I just , have never been good or empathetic and I have to remind myself to constantly be practicing my responses to sound normal. I've never been happy for anyone else esp if they got something I wanted. I almost came to poisoning my own mother before, but she died first. it's just a whole galaxy and lifetime of memories that drag down down down.
 

michael_3165

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I believe it depends, but I also believe for me personally I was 100% born evil. I just , have never been good or empathetic and I have to remind myself to constantly be practicing my responses to sound normal. I've never been happy for anyone else esp if they got something I wanted. I almost came to poisoning my own mother before, but she died first. it's just a whole galaxy and lifetime of memories that drag down down down.
You sound like a bundle of laughs :p

If you hate your mother that much, I suspect that nurture certainly had at least a bit of an influence.
 

PutItInHere691

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i think for most part we are all born innocent--its how we are raised that makes us evil--- i know with me things that occurred in my past---made me the person i grew up being and who i grew up to be--

there is cases whereput in front of tv as a babysitter and watch murder movies and as get older they arent taught from fiction to reality--so they live in this ficticious world and do what they seen in their lives--

there are some people out there just curious about things --wondering what its like to do various things---andnever follow up on those thoughts because they know what will happen if do it---others get so much into those thoughts they become to point they dont care and do it--