Are we nearing a new American Revolution?

HazelGod

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Hmmm... armed people with a show of strength at political functions that are there to intimidate voters and politicians to drop the public option sounds like something that is familiar to me...

Can it be TERRORISM?

Armed people deliberately causing fear in voters and politicians to bring about a particular political goal.

These people are participating in terrorism against our country.

Tripod, you're walking a line dangerously close to Bush when you start labeling those with whom you disagree as public enemies by using such inflammatory terms.


No, not terrorism. If there are no plans to use the guns to shoot anyone and no gun is discharged, then it's not terrorism. Do not mistake exercise of Second Amendment rights for terrorism. That's a serious mistake.

There is nothing to prevent anyone from going to a town hall meeting with a gun in some states. That means if one side can tote a gun then so can the other.

Well said.
 

tripod

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Tripod, you're walking a line dangerously close to Bush when you start labeling those with whom you disagree as public enemies by using such inflammatory terms.

Dude, the guns are meant to intimidate liberals plain and simple. You wanna play all cutesy and pretend like this is not happening, by seeing it as a bunch of Americans just exercising their right to bear arms.

I find it highly naive of you, your love of guns and your "right to bear them" is blinding you from the reality of what is really going on, not just what you see at face value.

Yes, at face value the men are simply exercising their 2nd amendment right.

Yet, on closer inspection, there is something more sinister at hand.

No, not terrorism. If there are no plans to use the guns to shoot anyone and no gun is discharged, then it's not terrorism. Do not mistake exercise of Second Amendment rights for terrorism. That's a serious mistake.

You're out of your mind Jason. The guns are meant to intimidate, if you can't see that then you are as blind as a bat.

Dude, I am not mistaking 2nd amendment rights for terrorism... do you think that I am a simple and stupid individual? I know what the hell the 2nd amendment is.

You need to examine the individuals motivations behind exercising their 2nd amendment rights...

IT'S THE MOTIVATION TO STIFLE THE POLITICAL DEBATE OVER THE PUBLIC OPTION AND THE DESIRE TO INTIMIDATE VOTERS AND POLITICIANS TO DROP IT.

Your blind acceptance of the "gun carriers" as simply exercising their 2nd amendment rights is absolutely mind blowing.

We have a history of assassinations in this country...

and we also have a strong history of systematic violent intimidation perpetrated by armed gangs to bring about certain political outcomes.

Do you deny that?

Can you not see that this is a lawful way of doing the same thing?
 

HazelGod

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Dude, the guns are meant to intimidate liberals plain and simple. You wanna play all cutesy and pretend like this is not happening, by seeing it as a bunch of Americans just exercising their right to bear arms.

Yes, at face value the men are simply exercising their 2nd amendment right.

Yet, on closer inspection, there is something more sinister at hand.

No, that's just your supposition...an opinion based in nothing more than a projection of your personal prejudices. You're entitled to it, of course, but that doesn't make it any less full of shit. :wink:
 

tripod

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It's really not.

So it is just the innocent display of assault weapons (that are designed to kill people) at political rallies? Why don't these guys carry their AR-15s or high caliber pistols wherever they go if this is the case?

They don't. They just bring them out whenever Obama is in town.

O.K., so these guys are not terrorists, but simply participating in armed intimidation... the difference between the two is the pull of the trigger.

Guns are intimidating... I know that you are all "Billy Bad Ass" and you aren't the least bit intimidated by weapons. But the average human is whether you like it or not, and you should be open to that.

I don't know why that is such a difficult request with y'all... can you just be open to the prospect that many people are intimidated by the presence of those men and their weapons?

I'm not anti-gun by the way, I'm a good shot.

I own an assault rifle and WOULDN'T DREAM OF STRAPPING IT ON AND CARRYING A SIGN OUTSIDE OF A REPUBLICAN POLITICAL RALLY.

What would be the goddamn point other than intimidation?

The "Right to Bear Arms" means that the people have a right to bear arms in defense of themselves or the state.

It means a right to own a gun and to use it, not to "bear it" as "carry it" on your body.

Guns are not props or toys, they are to be used.

No, that's just your supposition...an opinion based in nothing more than a projection of your personal prejudices. You're entitled to it, of course, but that doesn't make it any less full of shit. :wink:

It's called reality, not the "gun nut" fantasy world that you would like to live in.
 
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B_New End

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why did hte panthers carry weapons? was it to somehow silence their critics?

Two answers:

1. to assert their constitutional rights
2. publicity

But the average human is whether you like it or not, and you should be open to that.
The average city slicker may be, but not the average country boy.


BTW, the tea party was originally a Ron Paul movement phenomenon. And many of the protestors at these events are Ron Paulies. They are using the Republicans to bolster their power... but this isn't about healthcare. It may be to the Republicans, but to the libertarians in the crowd, it is about a whole lot more.
 
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jason_els

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I see the carrying of guns to a public meeting like that as an intimidation tactic, no doubt. But you can only be intimidated if you let yourself be intimidated. I also see it as the gun carriers making a statement that they believe health care reform is a dangerous move toward a socialist society that will threaten their lives directly. It may be a message that they're willing to take-up arms to defend what they believe to be their rights.

That's OK. A right is an inalienable act which the law cannot abridge, not a privilege. You can question why someone might exercise a right, but you cannot prevent it. Suspicion of what may happen is not legal reason to abridge a right either. Yes this country has a history of assassination as do many others. It's part of the price we pay for our freedoms. With free societies come risks and we can't prevent all risks all the time.

And as I pointed out, simply being pro-health care reform does not make someone "a liberal" nor does it mean liberals don't or can't carry guns to counter-intimidate either.

The Second Amendment exists for a number of reasons and it, along with the rest of the Bill of Rights, are the final guarantors of freedoms in this country. This country nor its Constitution, would exist without the right to bear arms. If we come to civil war or revolution, then that will be the right of the people to overthrow the government. The government may say the people do not have that right but it's that's not for the government to determine. The American people are sovereign in this nation, answerable as a body to no one but themselves and the laws they enact to govern themselves. If we want to sweep it all away then that's our prerogative. Our Constitution gives us the power to meet as citizens and amend the Constitution without the approval of the federal government. It also allows us to maintain our security through the right to free speech, press, and the carrying of arms.

I know some people like to rail about the threat of guns and all, but I know a few thousand dead men and women whose blood gave us our Constitution and beg us not to forget that they were once labeled "terrorists" by the law. We owe our existence to these people and perhaps someday we will need to owe our existence to similar people again.

What a person does with a gun determines if a gun is dangerous. Ultimately we must acknowledge our own responsibility for the power we wield and the Second Amendment acknowledges that. I don't fear guns, they're very common where I live and I can shoot reasonably well. We have a few in the house as do most people around here. I'd never think of using one against another person unless I felt my life was threatened and neither would the vast majority of law-abiding gun owners in this country. I should go to a range again as I haven't been shooting in ages. What you really don't want is someone owning a gun who has no idea how to use it! The more you practice with a weapon the safer an owner you'll be and the less likely you'll be to use it. So please don't think that just because many gun owners like to go to the range or hunt that they're just itching to blow a hole in anyone they don't like.

Worry about the whackos with the unregistered guns and the idiots who don't know how to handle or use their weapons.
 

tripod

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why did hte panthers carry weapons? was it to somehow silence their critics?

Two answers:

1. to assert their constitutional rights
2. publicity

I think that the Black Panthers were asserting more than their constitutional rights and gaining publicity. It's a great parallel though that gives me pause and makes me think.

I think that the Black Panther's carrying of assault weapons was fairly complex... but I will touch on a couple of points though.

1). The Black Panthers were carrying assault weapons because they saw themselves (as black men) as being under assault from a myriad of outside forces (not just the government who at the time were absolutely complicit in the subjugation of black folk)

2). They were asserting their full "humanity" by exercising their 2nd amendment rights as American men who were 100% human and should be recognized a such... it's more to do with being seen as 5/5ths of a person, not 3/5ths, then the fetishistic display that we are seeing today by angry white men.

The average city slicker may be, but not the average country boy.

Well, that is true, but you are leaving out the suburbanites which along with the city dwellers constitute the vast majority of the country's population.


BTW, the tea party was originally a Ron Paul movement phenomenon. And many of the protestors at these events are Ron Paulies. They are using the Republicans to bolster their power... but this isn't about healthcare. It may be to the Republicans, but to the libertarians in the crowd, it is about a whole lot more.

I understand that... but why aren't they separating themselves from the Republican strategy by clearly defining their purpose for the display?

The Republicans are using them. They aren't even identifying their cause, how can they be using the Republicans to bolster their power when hardly nobody knows that they are Ron Paulies or even what the hell they are up to?

It also allows us to maintain our security through the right to free speech, press, and the carrying of arms.

I'll repeat myself. The "Right to Bear Arms" means that the people have a right to bear arms in defense of themselves or the state.

It means a right to own a gun and to use it, not to "bear it" as "carry it" on your body.

Worry about the whackos with the unregistered guns and the idiots who don't know how to handle or use their weapons.

Jas, I'm not anti-gun... and I am not a bleeding heart liberal either.
 
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HazelGod

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II'll repeat myself. The "Right to Bear Arms" means that the people have a right to bear arms in defense of themselves or the state.

It means a right to own a gun and to use it, not to "bear it" as "carry it" on your body.

Repeat it all you like...it's still incorrect.


It's called reality, not the "gun nut" fantasy world that you would like to live in.

OK, T, have it your way. :lmao:

Personally, I see far more threat to our safety in all the people going into hysterics over the mere presence of visible weapons than from the bearers of the weapons themselves.
 
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jason_els

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Jas, I'm not anti-gun... and I am not a bleeding heart liberal either.

I'm not saying you are in the least. When I write I try to be as succinct as possible. The great majority of the time (outside or sarcasm or humor) if I don't say something blatantly then I'm not attempting to imply it.

My initial response was a statement of the need to be extremely careful when using the terrorist label. The second response was an attempt to explain why I felt these people were toting guns to a town hall meeting and the need for us to extend our circumspection of that reasoning to the first response about labeling such people as terrorists.

Not everything I write is always successful at accurately conveying my thoughts so my apologies if that happened here.
 

SpeedoGuy

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Hmmm... armed people with a show of strength at political functions that are there to intimidate voters and politicians to drop the public option sounds like something that is familiar to me...

When I was in grade school one of my assignments was watching and taking notes from television news coverage of political upheavals and election processes in strife torn third world countries. I shuddered every time I saw flim clips that featured bands of angry young men scowling and brandishing automatic weapons at rallies and gatherings.

I always felt grateful that such things didn't happen in the US, that we could decide issues through debate and fair voting.
 

B_VinylBoy

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I'm sorry, but I have to agree with Tripod here.
Sure, it's your right to bear arms. However, do these people do this in public on a regular basis? When they go food shopping, do they strap on the holdster? How about that job interview... Ever bring the revolver with you then? How about when you take your kids to camp. Sure, bring the semi and put it in the trunk!

I could go on, but I think you get what I'm saying. Nobody's life is in danger at a Town Hall Meeting. Either these people are paranoid, thinking that some violence is going to happen, or they're playing on the intimidation factor. The law may protect their actions, but their motives are not as pure. Let's not act naive here.
 

D_Mylor Mentallydaft

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Firearm enthusiasts are an interesting bunch..


one way to put it.......

I sense this coldness in my own mother who is supposed to be a "saint" in my mind right? She has a coldness and lack of empathy that I don't understand... .


Something happened.... to her or some one she loved, no person with ANY survival instinct will be victimized twice, and no one who REALLY loves you will stand and allow it to happen to you.

She is cold and will put a bullet in your heart, but she is only five feet tall, so I gather that her coldness stems from the fear that she has felt all of her life from being small... closed case..


5"2 or 6"5, a dwarf can kill you just as dead as a giant can, a wounded man WILL ALWAYS BE LOOKING FOR YOU! And a limp or a colostomy bag keeps a good mental image of you in their mind. When some one let's know before hand they’re willing to kill you, if you wind up dead its only because YOU HESITATED! shoot first, shoot to kill, it's better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6

I have never met a black gun enthusiast... I know that they are out there, but I have just never met one. The gun range in Georgia where my Mom goes is chock FULL OF RACISTS and people who would GLADLY put bullets in the heads of liberals... they have anti-Obama propaganda plastered all over their shop..


neither have I.... in africa i met black gunsmiths, but no "enthusiasts"

and yes alot of racists are hateful out of fear, and nothing like blued steel problem solver to make you feel good and safe.


All I am trying to say is that firearms enthusiasts by and large are not a bunch of sweet and loving people. MANY of them have a deep seated hatred of brown and black people and MANY of them have a serious hatred of liberals as well..


dunno what one has to do with the other, but you DO realize, that a "handgun"...... exists for absolutely NO other reason than to KILL HUMAN BEINGS! if a gun is a defining part of who you are, then you can't be that sweet.


I don't trust many gun enthusiasts to be "good" people. .


ahh a value judgment, i have (as of the UPS truck arriving this afternoon) over 80 legal class1 fire arms, handguns, shot guns, riffles, assault riffles. And i also have more than 1 less than 10 fully auto military quality/issue machine and sub machine guns and even an M203 gernade launcher the latter ones listed ALL A.T.F registered and documented, dose that mean i'm not "good" people?..... even if i am rated 300 one every weapon i own by the folks who designed em and spent alot of money teaching me how to use them? and that most of the classa or class 1 whatever, LEGAL shit i have, were guns I was sent to review from the magazines you see on the rack and the companies and allowed to keep? or am I only bad because I am a person who has and NEEDS a 3 ton gun safe in my basement? pay my taxes, i vote cause i didn't get locked up for selling weed like some folks,what if i just like em?

Americans don't seem to do shit about anything until people start to die.


no, cause when the dying starts then the media kicks in and we have to go play big brother to the world, think about dick channey's taker full of "gasoline" taken hostage, not after he sent hallaburton's "private" security team to retrieve it, if the news would just report instead of sway, fear would be so much less and we could handle OUR business and keep folks out of it.

QUOTE=VinylBoy;2282239] I'm sorry, but even with the right to bear arms there's still no real reason why anyone would bring an armed weapon to a Town Hall Debate regarding Health Care, or to a Presidential rally.[/QUOTE]

I dunno man, those things got pretty ugly.... lol
but you're right, no reason to carry it in there. I would have one on me, but no one ever knows i am armed, 90% of "issues" caused by carrying where people can see, I can hide a 45 in track pants, and even in a shoulder holster.... i am "capable" of handling it

And look at the majority of people who came strapped? YOUNG PEOPLE. Gee, you worried that grandma is going to take you out at the knee-caps over Health Care? Are we REALLY becoming this paranoid in this country? Damn... maybe you all could learn something from people who grew up in the ghetto.

its fucking kids.... stupid ass kids posturing, thinking it makes them tough without the vaguest idea what it is to END a person, like that psycho kid they arrested tonight here in Atlanta who beat a woman he knew his whole life, unconscious.... WITH HER 1 YEAR OLD CHILD! when he was locked up the sheriff were on route to his house to arrest him for violating his house arrest probation/ $250,000 bail FOR MURDERING A GAS STATION ATTENDANT OVER A 5 DOLLAR SHIRT! that landed him on america's most wanted.... told the news cam "the world is mine, I'm scarface!"......... 17 years old
 

HazelGod

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I'm sorry, but I have to agree with Tripod here.
Sure, it's your right to bear arms. However, do these people do this in public on a regular basis? When they go food shopping, do they strap on the holdster? How about that job interview... Ever bring the revolver with you then? How about when you take your kids to camp. Sure, bring the semi and put it in the trunk!

I know many CHL holders here in Texas who go everywhere armed, except where prohibited by law.

You simply cannot know the answer to these questions one way or the other...so it seems a bit pretentious to suppose that you do and hold up that supposition as evidence that your interpretation is correct. Presuming the ability to divine others' intent based on any single event -- or worse, on only the news coverage of a single event -- strikes me as a downright foolish notion.
 

B_New End

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then the fetishistic display that we are seeing today by angry white men.
The guy with the AR-15 was black. His name was Chris. Was he just a token? I don't know. He kind of sounded like one in the media, but I have yet to listen to his full interview. But I am certainly willing to give him the benefit of the doubt, as he was being interviewed by a libertarian.
 

tripod

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The guy with the AR-15 was black. His name was Chris. Was he just a token? I don't know. He kind of sounded like one in the media, but I have yet to listen to his full interview. But I am certainly willing to give him the benefit of the doubt, as he was being interviewed by a libertarian.

I know, I saw that dude and he looked pretty rad with his AR-15, there was another guy that wasn't on camera or got photographed that was white.

My brother works with a black Republican... he is straight the fuck up conservative and hates Obama.

I didn't hear the guy being interviewed... I doubt that he was a counter protestor though! lol!

Definitely not the token black gun enthusiast... just finally one that has been seen in the media. I thought that it was pretty cool, other than the Malcolm X assassination and all.

The guy did have his shirt buttoned up all of the way and was wearing horn rimmed glasses I do recall... I think, I can't really remember.
 

Elmer Gantry

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This whole Left v. Right thing propagated by the media and the ignorant masses is destroying this country.

And the truth will set you free, brother!!

Once you clear away the mud which is the left/right paradigm, politics becomes very lucid and easy to understand.
 

invisibleman

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Firearm enthusiasts are an interesting bunch. My mother is a firearms enthusiast, so is my stepdad, and I have two stepbrothers that are "gun nuts". My mother's first husband was a firearms enthusiast (gunsmith) and my father's best friend is one (gunsmith) as well.

I have also known many other firearms enthusiasts in my life outside of my family and have spent many hours at ranges hanging out with other firearm enthusiasts that I did not know personally.

I have known a LOT of "gun nuts" in my life. As a child, I was fascinated by firearms and nobody in the neighborhood had a larger toy gun collection than I did (I grew up in the Chicago area). I loved all things war and was obsessed with WWII and Vietnam as a lad.

I have a love of guns in my heart.

Now as an adult, I am much more in tune with the motivations of other people and what drives them to be who they are in life.

"Gun nuts" have a coldness in their heart... I don't know where it comes from, but it is there. I sense this coldness in my own mother who is supposed to be a "saint" in my mind right? She has a coldness and lack of empathy that I don't understand... I mean, she obviously loves her boy, but her lack of empathy is startling. I moved to live with my Dad at age 15, so I guess I never really knew her completely...

She is cold and will put a bullet in your heart, but she is only five feet tall, so I gather that her coldness stems from the fear that she has felt all of her life from being small... closed case.

Now my stepdad can be fairly racist... not in overt way, but just a mistrust and misunderstanding of black folk and no desire to get to know them. I wouldn't call him a racist, but I wouldn't refer to him as "post racial" either.

Does his gun enthusiasm stem from a mistrust of brown and black people? It sure might.

The "Death Wish" movies were HUGELY successful in the 70's and audiences cheered wildly whenever Bronson would snuff a criminal's life. The backdrop of rising crime rates and decay in urban cities served as a welcome mat for future vigilantes like Bernhard Goetz. An almost hysterical fear of inner cities and street gangs gripped the country in the 80's and into the 90's. Racial tensions were again high as fuck in the early nineties with the L.A. riots taking place on everyone's televisions and pivotal movies like "Do The Right Thing" gracing the silver screen.

Fuck, my own grandfather sits by the door late at night with a rifle so that he can get a good shot at any possible intruders!

My Mom's former husband and my Dad's best friend are both gunsmiths and share a love for weapons that was born out of stints in the military and hunting as teenagers.

Have I heard them both use racial slurs from time to time? Yes.

My two stepbrothers are "gun nuts". They are also Glen Beck fans and Hannity freaks... Limbaugh is their God. They are racists plain and simple.

I have never met a black gun enthusiast... I know that they are out there, but I have just never met one. The gun range in Georgia where my Mom goes is chock FULL OF RACISTS and people who would GLADLY put bullets in the heads of liberals... they have anti-Obama propaganda plastered all over their shop.

All I am trying to say is that firearms enthusiasts by and large are not a bunch of sweet and loving people. MANY of them have a deep seated hatred of brown and black people and MANY of them have a serious hatred of liberals as well.

I don't trust many gun enthusiasts to be "good" people. Now that doesn't mean that all gun enthusiasts are the enemy of liberals and progressives, it just means that like around 65% (VERY unscientific figure) of them are the enemies of the left.

Many gun enthusiasts simply have a baseless fear that the government is evil and own guns to protect themselves and their family from the inevitable "New World Order".

I am afraid that those people are now the enemies of the Obama administration and of liberals and progressives everywhere.

I am scared, but not too scared... me thinks that one of these right wing gun enthusiasts needs to go too far and actually shoot some people in order for the rest of the country to wake the fuck up to this growing menace.

Americans don't seem to do shit about anything until people start to die.


All I can say is DAMMMMMMMNNNNNN!!!!

I feel for you, Tripod. If your family has a problem with people of color to that extent, that is insane. In my fam, we don't have hatred of white peeps issues-- our hate is on each other at times. Brad Pitt and Angelina Jolie could adopt my family. Hehehe.:biggrin1:

I never thought that gun enthusiasts were good peeps. Especially to use guns to kill people that are perceived threats.

There are too many prejudiced peeps in my area. If I perceive anyone as racist, I avoid those peeps. Those peeps are insane. I don't think that eradication of entire races would end racism. The problem is totally mental and it stems from a dissatisfaction of a world not on their terms.

Hell-- I am not satisfied with some people and they can be of any race, sexual orientation...etcetera. But I don't want to kill them because I hate them. I just want to kick their asses. But that is it. But if I am angry to the point of wanting to kick their asses all the time. I just leave...cut the necessity of being around peeps that I want to fight with.

 

B_VinylBoy

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I know many CHL holders here in Texas who go everywhere armed, except where prohibited by law.

You simply cannot know the answer to these questions one way or the other...so it seems a bit pretentious to suppose that you do and hold up that supposition as evidence that your interpretation is correct. Presuming the ability to divine others' intent based on any single event -- or worse, on only the news coverage of a single event -- strikes me as a downright foolish notion.

Where I grew up you never saw that. With the exception of Policemen and authoritative figures, people didn't walk around the streets with their firearms purposely exposed. Even civilians who could legally hold one had it concealed in their bag or something. Perfect case of a cultural divide on this issue.

I just don't see why anyone would attend a Presidential Rally or a Town Hall Meeting with a gun. On a scale of 1 to 10 in the life threatening department, I'd find that to be a -2.
 

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