Are we really "At War"?

[KinkGuy]

Apparently, if we are too stupid and inept to figure out a way to be rich, even if by illegal means, then we deserve to die poor, horrible, lingering deaths. It is our own fault that we didn't figure out how to steal money.

 

[GoneA]

*emails this to president bush*

 

[SpeedoGuy]

The pre-emptive strategy.

If the U.S. makes pre-emptive military strikes a key component of its foreign policy I fear we are going to regret it. And since the first use of Bush's pre-emptive strategy (Iraq) has already proven to be a colossal clusterfuck, can anyone not imagine that even bigger blunders await down the road somewhere in the future?

Besides, the preemptive strategy is almost completely morally bankrupt because it can be (and has been) used to justify just about any atrocity. And once pre-emptive action is employed, there's no putting the genie back in the bottle (ala European armies mobilizing in August 1914). Everyone with a military force will see the need to use it.

As for the U.S., sooner or later some other power (perhaps a rising India, China or even a resurgent Europe) will see the need to pre-empt a pre-emptive strike by an arrogant Uncle Sam and then we'll really have a mess on our hands.

Best just not to get into such a mess in the first place.

SG

 

[madame_zora]

The pre-emptive strategy.

If the U.S. makes pre-emptive military strikes a key component of its foreign policy I fear we are going to regret it. And since the first use of Bush's pre-emptive strategy (Iraq) has already proven to be a colossal clusterfuck, can anyone not imagine that even bigger blunders await down the road somewhere in the future?

Besides, the preemptive strategy is almost completely morally bankrupt because it can be (and has been) used to justify just about any atrocity. And once pre-emptive action is employed, there's no putting the genie back in the bottle (ala European armies mobilizing in August 1914). Everyone with a military force will see the need to use it.

As for the U.S., sooner or later some other power (perhaps a rising India, China or even a resurgent Europe) will see the need to pre-empt a pre-emptive strike by an arrogant Uncle Sam and then we'll really have a mess on our hands.

Best just not to get into such a mess in the first place.

SG

Wow, I think I love you! Can you imagine what would happen if China and India decided to unite againt the US, which we just may have given them to power and money to do? If we ever give them a good enough REASON, we could be seriously fucked, which I couldn't say I'd be upset about.

 

[DC_DEEP]

If the U.S. makes pre-emptive military strikes a key component of its foreign policy I fear we are going to regret it....

Best just not to get into such a mess in the first place.

SG

Ah, too late for that, SG. I'm afraid that, as you put it, the jinn is already out of the bottle and won't go back in. Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if Mexico and Canada started getting a little antsy and decided to unite against us to prevent further imperialism.

 

[SpeedoGuy]

Its just that I'm not one of those who think the U.S. can arrogantly give the rest of the world the finger and act unilaterally whenever we find it expedient. That's a strategy guaranteed to self destruct, sooner or later. Perhaps it already has. The U.S. is not exactly popular these days on the world stage. Someday we will face a situation where we really will need true allies and I hope there will still be some remaining when we do.

Further, I'm worried that so many Americans are increasingly tempted to view our collective national value and character solely as military might. There's nothing wrong with a strong defense but too many of us are puffed up with pride crowing "America has the biggest ass kicking machine in history, so there!" Count me out of that group. How many other nations in the past have been militarily dominant only to decline toward ruin in a generation or two? The tables can turn in a real hurry.

I hope we are wiser than that but what I am seeing these days doesn't fill me with hope.

SG

 

[DC_DEEP]

I agree, SG. I don't necessarily advocate isolationism, but given a narrow option base, that is preferable to imperialism. Our entire current executive branch, and a too-large portion of both the judicial branch and the legislative branch, are of an imperialist mindset. "Make the world safe for democracy." What a crock of shit. If a country, collectively, wants democracy, they WILL have it. If they don't want it, it's no concern of our country.

 

[GottaBigOne]

The funny thing is, that a pure democracy is not at all "free". We should be advancing the notion of freedom around the world, not just democracy. Democracy allows the majority to do whatever it wills, which includes enslaving the minority (hheh hem.... the first hundred or so years of our nation's history). It is a constitutional government that allows freedom, freedom for the individual, freedom against the majority. Democracies aren't inherently free, and we won't have a "free" iraq no matter what they hope. It already is recognizing a State religion. How free will the non-muslims be???

 

[madame_zora]

As free as non-Christians here?

 

[B_caneadea]

Free Christians Here
Get Em While They're Hot! :d

 

[SpeedoGuy]

It is a constitutional government that allows freedom, freedom for the individual, freedom against the majority. Democracies aren't inherently free, and we won't have a "free" iraq no matter what they hope. It already is recognizing a State religion. How free will the non-muslims be???

Good points all. Democracy must be constrained by a nuetral constitution interpreted in good faith, otherwise its just mobocracy.

The way I see it, the real test for Iraq (and Afghanistan) will be whether their constitutions are robust and inclusive enough to stand alone, without U.S. bayonets artificially propping them up. And no oportunistic Chalabis or hand-picked Karzais enacting U.S. writ. Will the Afghanis and Iraqis strive to keep a constitutional democracy viable after the U.S. eventually reduces it forces? Or will they balkanize into warring theocratic fiefdoms.

Its ultimately in their hands, not ours. I, for one, will be an interested observer.

SG

 

[Dr Rock]

pffft. you're all talking a lot of balls here, folks: we already know from, oh let's see, just THE WHOLE OF RECORDED HISTORY that the middle east will NEVER chill the fuck out and quit cannibalizing itself. fuck, they can't quit killing each for 5 minutes without someone pushing a gun in their back, be it the romans, british or americans. we're wasting our time, money and lives as usual; you know it and you can bet your ass that those shitheels in DC and the pentagon know it too.

 

[curious n str8]

How can we ever trust them when we don't even trust ourselfs...think about it ppl... Quiz to follow

 

[Simon9]

As free as non-Christians here?

No, a lot less free, given the traditional Muslim view of dhimmis. Can one expect tolerance in a theocracy?I wouldn't expect it.

 

[Rikter8]

You bet they know it, but with most of americans being passive, they use it for all its worth.

They've sent 2000+ men to their deaths
They've started Prying on Social Security
They've pried on Pension Funds of Large corporations
They've protected Lawyers, Doctors with Untouchable Status
They've protected Iraqi's on US soil with Untouchable status
He's protected big corp. CEO's to walk away with the bank with no ramification.
They've destroyed thousands of acres of land for oil wells and sewage dumps
Billions of Dollars are un-accounted for due to "Accouting errors" or "War Cost"
He's tapped into phones, and you can pretty much guarantee he's also Tapped into Stock/Bond conversations, and any other financial benefit to him and his croonies.

The only war were going to be fighting is to get that Son of a Bitch out of office and to get Our Boys BACK TO THE U.S. WHERE THEY BELONG.

If Clinton can get Impeached because he had his Knob sucked,
BUSH Should Be CASTRATED for Murdering Thousands of service men.

Bush and his administration is the Only Terrorist we need to worry about.

we already know from, oh let's see, just THE WHOLE OF RECORDED HISTORY that the middle east will NEVER chill the fuck out and quit cannibalizing itself. fuck, they can't quit killing each for 5 minutes without someone pushing a gun in their back, be it the romans, british or americans. we're wasting our time, money and lives as usual; you know it and you can bet your ass that those shitheels in DC and the pentagon know it too.

 

[GottaBigOne]

Simon9 do you know the whole quote you have in your signature? Its by Ben Franklin and goes:"Democracy is three wolves and a sheep all voting on what to have for lunch. Freedom is the sheep properly armed as to contest the vote."

 

[DC_DEEP]

Simon9 do you know the whole quote you have in your signature? Its by Ben Franklin and goes:"Democracy is three wolves and a sheep all voting on what to have for lunch. Freedom is the sheep properly armed as to contest the vote."

Woohoo! GBO, you and I both know that most of the people reading this don't really understand the problems with a true, pure democracy. Unfortunately, it would allow mob rule, and it would be just so incredibly slow and lumbering and bulky in our country, it would be disaster... not to mention how much genocide would result. What most people want, and probably call democracy, is a federal republic, with democratically elected representative governance.

 

[GottaBigOne]

Exactamundo my brother!

 

[madame_zora]

Woohoo! GBO, you and I both know that most of the people reading this don't really understand the problems with a true, pure democracy. Unfortunately, it would allow mob rule, and it would be just so incredibly slow and lumbering and bulky in our country, it would be disaster... not to mention how much genocide would result. What most people want, and probably call democracy, is a federal republic, with democratically elected representative governance.

Honey, can I pleeeeze stick my fingers up your ass?

 

[SouthernBum]

Everybody needs to relax...I mean geez....he IS educating our country's children