Are we really "At War"?

JustAsking

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I have hesitated to even read this thread for quite a while, since I was afraid I would be too insensed about what I read here. I now realize that my concern comes more from instincts I have built up since living in Ohio, which are to expect rampant conservatism everywhere I look.

I should have already learned my lesson, though. These are the most intelligent conversations I have found on the Internet in public forums.

Anyway, I just read the first half of this thread and have concluded that GBO has said it all. G, you should write for the Washington Post. On this matter, you are cogent, precise, and just plain right.

This might be just rehashing what has already been said, but my feeling is that whenever the rights of American citizens are balanced against national security, its an extremely important mattter. As Patrick Henry, said, "Give me Liberty, or give me Death." So we know how that founding father arranged his priorities between rights and safety. Anyway, its due to the importance of any threat to civil liberties that we should be all the more following due process and either declaring war or not declaring war. This is true in all situations, not just with Iraq.

This is why our criminal justice system has a very strong formal notion about what the executive branch can do to detain you or search you based on whether or not you have been formally charged or not. Police just can't go around detaining and searching people without due cause with only their "good intentions to protect you" as justification. Just shouting, "BUT WE ARE FIGHTING CRIME!" is not sufficient to justify an unfettered police force. Neither is invoking the "war on terror" slogan justification for the executive branch to trample all over civil rights whenever it thinks it needs to.

The fact that most people don't understand how important it is to be constantly vigilant about how the executive branch of a government is behaving is an indictment of our educational system.

We should be teaching things like:

"Dissent is the highest form of patriotism." -Thomas Jefferson.

"All tyrrany needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain silent." - Thomas Jefferson

"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin (although the authorship is disputed).

"Given a choice between government without newspapers, or newspapers without government, I should not hesitate for a moment to prefer the latter."
- Thomas Jefferson

and so on. These guys got it. Why are we so bad at teaching it in our schools?

So my point here is .... ummm what was my point ... Oh yeah, war is the last thing we should be informal about because it has just as many implications for our domestic freedoms as it does for anything else.

JustAsking
 

luvnlg

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The only way to know if the US is truely 'at war' is to check the oval office rug.
If the eagle is facing the olive branch then we are only playing at war, to kill some young folks and make a bit of green.
If the eagle is facing the arrrows then the rich folks kids are on holiday somewhere until daddy can secure a safe non-combat assignment so they can later run for office.

Easy peasy!

mmmmmmmmm.. did that tip my hand?
 

Dr Rock

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who lives in the east 'neath the willow tree? Sex
Sexuality
Unsure
the beast behind our eyes is loose
the day has come, the day has come
we march to Armageddon
hungry for the war

I see the hated enemy
I see what I was taught to see
and one of us will bend the knee
we understand the law

the blood lust jerks our legs to march
fife and drum, fife and drum
our eyes are fixed and fearless
searching for the war

our statesmen deal in blood and lies
a hundred million stifled cries
a hundred million wasted lives
already gone before

so march or die, march or die
the stench of death is in the sky
we never fail to satisfy
we rend with tooth and claw

sword and shield and jackboot heel
we love to kill, we love to kill
we love the taste of our own blood
squirm in our own gore

children weep and widows wail
our education systems fail
to hide our guilt we build more jails
and we shall build still more

our forests die, the stranglehold
that we put on the earth for gold
will yet increase ten thousandfold
and no one knows what for

march and die, march and die
defecate, despoil and lie
cheat, dissemble, preach and spy
build your house of straw

laugh and cry, laugh and cry
bloody sunset drowns the sky
for the earth to heal, then we must die
no-one deserves it more

I tell you we are doomed my friends
our time is come, our time is come
we live within a charnel house
rotten to the core

we glorify lust, greed and pain
we drown our hope in poison rain
we point the finger, shift the blame
ambition makes us whores

march or croak, march or croak
all your lives a cosmic joke
fill your days with piss and smoke
the wolf waits at your door

burn and dance, burn and dance
sex, death, torture, false romance
whoop and howl, you have no chance
burn and rise no more
 

10.5andproudofit

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funny you should mention the TSA i just had it out with them about what i consider an illegal seizure of my property. the response email to say the least was totally generic, and if i printed it out it would only benifit me for wiping my ass with it
 

Simon9

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Okay, so we're all pissed off about where the USA is at these days.

So what do we do about it? Is it going to be addressed within the political system or outside it? And do you want massive replacement with something else or a mere "fine tuning"?

I truly hope no one here is naive enough to believe that the problem is simply "The Republicans need to be replaced with Democrats" or the equally inane "The Democrats need to be replaced with Republicans". Subbing Tweedledum for Tweedledee isn't a solution. I think a good first step for many people is to look at the collection of jokers the Demopublicans have been coughing up to us and asking ourselves,"Is there any REAL difference between this dude and his Republicrat counterpart"? Think about it. Be honest. You know the answer!

Is it any wonder the US has ever-sinking voter turnouts and electoral dead heats between the Big Two?

And I think most people instinctively know it's no real choice among the Big Two Parties that run everything. And as long as we confine ourselves to voting ONLY for them, positive change is a mere fantasy. It WON'T happen.

Then figure out WHERE you want the country to go. Are there parties/politicians that DO stand for that direction? Be daring. Step outside the box.
 

DC_DEEP

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Simon9 and 10.5, you really should read more of my posts. I don't advocate replacing the Demicans with Republicrats. I advocate that, as voters, we let 'em ALL know that if they don't fucking get in line, NOW, they will be out of a job. I am all in favor of a "none of the above" line on ALL ballots. I am of the opinion that false campaign promises constitute treason, and should be punishable by death. Seriously on that last one.

10.5, of course the TSA gave you the fuck-around. You just have to get names and be persistent. TSA has a call center. File a formal written complaint if you have a problem, give them a reasonable amount of time (3 working days) and then call them every day for updates. If you want, I will send you a PM with details about my dealings with the TSA, and how travel has changed for me since I started being more "proactive" in protecting my rights.
 

DC_DEEP

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GottaBigOne said:
Thanks, but every time I call them up they pretend they're not home.
LOL They never print my letters to the editor, either. I guess my views are just too "Whig", and they fear reprisal from king george if my views are published. Many topics, from the baseball stadium here (google "nationals baseball") to political corruption to executive office crimes are ignored. I can't imagine what would happen if I wrote such things to The Washington Times or The New York Post. I would probably disappear in the night and take a lllloooonnnngggg secret vacation to Guantanamo Bay, Cuba.
 

madame_zora

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DC_DEEP said:
LOL They never print my letters to the editor, either. I guess my views are just too "Whig", and they fear reprisal from king george if my views are published. Many topics, from the baseball stadium here (google "nationals baseball") to political corruption to executive office crimes are ignored. I can't imagine what would happen if I wrote such things to The Washington Times or The New York Post. I would probably disappear in the night and take a lllloooonnnngggg secret vacation to Guantanamo Bay, Cuba.

Hey, if you ever send something truly offensive, you have to let me know first so I can be looking out for you in case of said disappearance, okay?
 

DC_DEEP

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madame_zora said:
Hey, if you ever send something truly offensive, you have to let me know first so I can be looking out for you in case of said disappearance, okay?
LOL sweetheart, KEEP a lookout. Everything I send to these idiots is offensive - but only because they find it offensive when a citizen calls them on their corruption and refuses to be "one of the sheep." I demand my Constitutional rights, and bureaucrats ALWAYS find that offensive.