Are women still a limiting resource?

Phil Ayesho

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...and if so, how limiting are they?

Bateman's principle basically says the sex which invests the most in producing offspring becomes a limiting resource over which the other sex will compete. For most animals the female invests the most into reproduction, so males compete for them. The males are the unlimited resource. There are exceptions though. For example, in some species of birds (like the 3 species of Phalarope) the males spend the time incubating the eggs and the females compete for nesting territory and pursue the males.

If you accept this so far, then you would also accept that men and women must have developed traits that give them the highest probability of passing on their genes. Men developed the trait of being sexually aggressive to compete against other men for (the limited) women. Women have the luxury of being passive and choosy because they have traditionally been the limited resource. Women will choose aggressive males (along with other desirable traits) since their male offspring will be more likely to share the same traits as the father and pass on their genes to the next generation.

Since sex is less about reproduction and more about pleasure now (with birth control and such), it would seem women are less of a limiting resource than in the past. Women do still invest more into reproduction though. For example, there are still single mothers that spend more time caring for the kids and are somewhat "off the market," but the father is free to look for new sexual partners. But overall, women are less of a limited sexual resource now than ever before.

So it seems as though the sexual revolution has confused a lot of people. We don't know what is right or wrong and what is expected of us anymore. Our sex drives tell us one thing but the dynamics of sex in our current society expect something else. Men's instincts drive them to be sexually assertive, but society tells us that men and women are equal so men shouldn't be as aggressive. Some women have become more sexually assertive and other women feel like they are left behind if they don't put out.

Do you think the modern role of sex in our society and our genetic makeup are now in conflict? Are men's and women's sexual instincts at odds with the current sexual expectations?

How do you fit into all this? Do you feel like you are a limited, valuable resource or an unlimited resource so you must compete for sexual partners?

Discuss :smile:

Great post.
Yes, I think men and women have a cultural imprint that is way out of alignment with their genetically driven sexual behavior.

Women intellectually 'want' more sensitive guys... but are not as biologically drawn to them as they are to more assertive or powerful guys.
Men intellectually want women to be far more sexual... but when they meet a woman who is as sexual as they fantasize, they are put off and fearful of her fidelity... willing to screw them, but unwilling to commit to them.

We can all imagine a much better world than we are, as yet, evolved to achieve.

We can, to a certain extent, combat these ancient instincts with intellectual discipline... but its a constant pressure on all of our interactions...

But really... a great post and a great question.
 

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I'm trying to understand what you mean by this. Are you saying that there aren't many women that can or will work for what or who they want in life? If I don't want to be alone I have to settle for a woman that doesn't work for what she wants?

No, it's just that you can't have your cake and eat it too. If you don't want to be alone you need to foolow the status quo and ask a girl out. :cool: That hard working woman may not think you are good enough for her. :wink: On paper, a lot of guys are a catch, but when you try to talk to them you find out they are experts in their field/career and can't talk about anything else. :12: They can't all have Asperger's Syndrome or be socially retarded yet this trend seems to be reaching epidemic proportions worldwide. :frown1: At least if a man approaches me in a bar or wherever, I know he's got a pair even if he isn't my type.

It's somewhat like what Phil Ayesho has alluded to.
Phil Ayesho said: Women intellectually 'want' more sensitive guys... but are not as biologically drawn to them as they are to more assertive or powerful guys. Men intellectually want women to be far more sexual... but when they meet a woman who is as sexual as they fantasize, they are put off and fearful of her fidelity... willing to screw them, but unwilling to commit to them.
Is it that men are fearful of her fidelity or fearful that they can't please her long term? Do some men think that a highly sexual woman is somehow more man than they are?:confused:
 

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Great post.
Yes, I think men and women have a cultural imprint that is way out of alignment with their genetically driven sexual behavior.

Women intellectually 'want' more sensitive guys... but are not as biologically drawn to them as they are to more assertive or powerful guys.
Men intellectually want women to be far more sexual... but when they meet a woman who is as sexual as they fantasize, they are put off and fearful of her fidelity... willing to screw them, but unwilling to commit to them.

We can all imagine a much better world than we are, as yet, evolved to achieve.

We can, to a certain extent, combat these ancient instincts with intellectual discipline... but its a constant pressure on all of our interactions...

But really... a great post and a great question.

I agree. When I was younger, the biological pull was definitely at the fore. It was all about the attraction and the sex. That may well have been because I was ready to have kids because I did have my child when I was relatively young. Now I am a bit older I cannot pretend that attraction isn't a factor but I am far less likely to allow my loins to determine who I end up with, particularly in the long term. Sex is one thing. Long term commitment - or even marriage - is another thing entirely. For the long term the intellectual - and shared values - matter far more than many people realise. Obviously chemistry matters too. You can have all the intellect in the world and share many fundamental beliefs but without chemistry, that person is friend rather than partner material. I am not currently in an exclusive relationship nor am I in a rush to be in one so I am not actively looking at the moment. If a man came along who could be who I need him to be, that would change. Definitely. What I have learned is any relationship that I form is far more likely to go the distance if I am physically AND intellectually attracted to a man.
 

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I think women do pursue that one male that can provide it all. But like the men have found, there isn't that one person that provides it all, but rather the one's that have the most important qualities they are looking for. Women have always been hunters, so I don't necessarily buy into the gatherer/nurturer theory and that now, all of a sudden women that have entered the workforce, they do it all and are now this new breed of super woman that are hunters as well as gatherers and nurturers too. Hunting is "prey" dependent. So the technique fits the prey. Women who are after the guys that are hunters and constantly looking for better have to hunt that way as well proactively. But it only makes sense, even for the female hunter to sit back and "bait & trap", because those hunter males will eventually come around. And the same holds for the males that aren't as active and aggressive, eventually they'll come around too and the hunter in the woman will evaluate that male at that time for the criteria required to be spouse & mate.

It's like the job market, some jobs you post for anyone to apply, others are recruited for. It's not a perfect system, but it is what it is, there are no guarantees for success, but a systematic approach does reduce the possibility of failure. If either gender is becoming more selective, that's a good thing. Each person owes it to themselves and society to do the best for themselves, otherwise we wind up with a bunch of bastard children running around and who knows where their father's are.

Some of this is true if you are looking at hunting purely as a metaphor for sexual behaviour. My use of the metaphor was primarily about the change of gender roles in society, particularly on the back of WWII. Prior to the war, most women didn't work outside the home after they married. Expectation was that they would stay at home and take care of the house and their man (nurtured). They did shopping and cooked (gathered). When the kids came along, they took care of them too (nurtured). This was their 'job' - and in fairness it was a role that women had been performing for thousands of years - and women accepted this. When the war started, suddenly there was a shortage of men. Jobs still needed to be done and kids still needed to be fed. In addition, weapons and munitions needed to be made. The solution? Women had to go out to work to earn money to feed the kids, etc. This wasn't something women wanted to do. They were thrust out there by circumstance.

In this instance women took on a traditionally male role - that of hunter - whilst continuing to perform their traditional roles of nurturer and gatherer. And many found that not only were they good at hunting, but things were a great deal better than they were when the men were around! When the war ended, all these men came back and expected women to just hand their jobs back to them. Some women did but many refused. They had gotten used to earning money. To not having it gambled or drunk away. Or spent on other women. Things were a hell of a lot better - and easier - with the new set up. So some of these women not only refused to return to their former role of keeping house, many of them also demanded out of their marriages. This was a phenomenon on both sides of the Atlantic and in Australia.

Lots of people blame the sexual revolution for what has happened to modern society and in many ways they are right. The pill, for example, allowed women a lot of freedom sexually and this has led to the breakdown of the family unit. But to me, like women's lib, the sexual revolution was an inevitability. The real catalyst for what is happening to society today was WWII. We all hear about all the babies that were born while men were away fighting. Everyone knew women were having sex outside their marriages and were falling pregnant but suddenly it wasn't as heavily stigmatised as it would have been had it happened before the war. Not even the birth of mixed race children was as stigmatised as it would have been before the war. Women's lib and the sexual revolution simply extended this further in that women felt able to have openly and deliberately have babies without a man in their lives - or not (with abortion) - and society accepted this too.

Today many women are hunters in every respect - just like men - which is surprising (to me) when you consider that it is such a recent phenomenon given that less than 70 years ago, very few women were so openly sexually available, very few kids were born out of wedlock (remember, there was no reliable contraception) and very few women worked outside the home.
 

Phil Ayesho

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Is it that men are fearful of her fidelity or fearful that they can't please her long term? Do some men think that a highly sexual woman is somehow more man than they are?:confused:[/COLOR]

I don't think so.... You have to realize that one of the largest factors in shaping human societies thru history is the simple fact that women absolutely know who their children are... and Men can never be certain which children are theirs.

A man is biologically driven to spread his seed into any woman that will have it... its good for his genetic odds...
But his legacy.... his personal time and attention, his income and property... these he really wants to go to a child he can be sure is his.

This is why so many societies place such a high stress on a woman's chastity... because of the insecurity of male parentage.
So men tend to love finding a woman who wants to have sex... but will naturally be more likely to commit to the woman who seems a lot more reluctant at giving it up.

Not only as evidence that she is not unfaithful.... but also as evidence that she is more choosy in who she will mate with...and that she has chosen that particular man....

No guy wants to feel like just another zipless fuck (even though most will go for one) The woman they will want to commit to will be the one that makes them feel like he is the 'only one'.



However... I do feel that men feell threatened by a woman's finacial success.
Men intellectually would love to have the bigger lifestyle of the extra career income... they are intellectually stimulated by a woman with ambitions, education and interests....

But Biologically... they are evolved to be the "provider"... other than physical protections that have become far less necessary in modern civilization... providing is really the only thing men bring to the table to attract and keep a woman. ( outside of making her laugh and being her best friend)

If the woman seem entirely able to fend for herself... or worse, able to provide better.... that is something that makes many men feel really threatened and insecure.
We know that most of us are not all that great looking... we're hairy and smelly and messy...
Frankly... I wouldn't live with one...

You gals have to appreciate how amazing it is to many men that you want to have anything to do with us.

If we feel you don't even need us.... then all it comes down to is how desperately we WANT you.

And that is inequitable...

Yup... the stress between what we think and what we feel is growing.
 

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I don't think so.... You have to realize that one of the largest factors in shaping human societies thru history is the simple fact that women absolutely know who their children are... and Men can never be certain which children are theirs.

A man is biologically driven to spread his seed into any woman that will have it... its good for his genetic odds...
But his legacy.... his personal time and attention, his income and property... these he really wants to go to a child he can be sure is his.

This is why so many societies place such a high stress on a woman's chastity... because of the insecurity of male parentage.
So men tend to love finding a woman who wants to have sex... but will naturally be more likely to commit to the woman who seems a lot more reluctant at giving it up.

Not only as evidence that she is not unfaithful.... but also as evidence that she is more choosy in who she will mate with...and that she has chosen that particular man....

No guy wants to feel like just another zipless fuck (even though most will go for one) The woman they will want to commit to will be the one that makes them feel like he is the 'only one'.



However... I do feel that men feell threatened by a woman's finacial success.
Men intellectually would love to have the bigger lifestyle of the extra career income... they are intellectually stimulated by a woman with ambitions, education and interests....

But Biologically... they are evolved to be the "provider"... other than physical protections that have become far less necessary in modern civilization... providing is really the only thing men bring to the table to attract and keep a woman. ( outside of making her laugh and being her best friend)

If the woman seem entirely able to fend for herself... or worse, able to provide better.... that is something that makes many men feel really threatened and insecure.
We know that most of us are not all that great looking... we're hairy and smelly and messy...
Frankly... I wouldn't live with one...

You gals have to appreciate how amazing it is to many men that you want to have anything to do with us.

If we feel you don't even need us.... then all it comes down to is how desperately we WANT you.

And that is inequitable...

Yup... the stress between what we think and what we feel is growing.

Wow Phil,

What a statement for transparency. I have really enjoyed reading the posts in this thread. You have probably touched upon some of the issues that are causing whole groups of women and men to remain partnerless. The achievement factor is one that rings particularly clearly to me in the African American community. The percentage of women who have achieved a degree of stability in their lives versus men is totally out of proportion and has caused a crisis in terms of long term commitment and marriage. For many women the outlook is dismal. They have been raised with particular standards and have spent their lives cultivating their talents and careers. But many are not finding counterparts in the male sector of the community. Some have married out of their social class and had their own particular challenges, others have not married and have lived fruitful lives. They may however desire to have a partner with whom they can relate but demographics do not seem to be on their side.

NJ, Choco, guys all can weigh in on my theory . In fact, please do....
 

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In my view the whole premise of women being the limited resource is inaccurate. Women are more numerous than men in almost all cultures, unless infanticide is practiced. Men are the more limited resource. Male children are more likely to die in all phases of growth than female children. The competition amongst men isn't for women in general. The competition is for women that are uncommonly pretty, uncommonly healthy looking, or uncommonly wealthy. That is what men are really revealing when they say women are a limited resource.
Women seek for the very limited resource of men that can actually provide. Good looking men get passed over for responsible men quite frequently once that good looking guy opens his mouth and reveals himself to be an idiot with a terrible pick up line. Women's recent sexual liberation has made things easier for good looking men that have nothing else to offer, in generations past they would seldom get a chance :tongue:
 

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Wow Phil,

What a statement for transparency. I have really enjoyed reading the posts in this thread. You have probably touched upon some of the issues that are causing whole groups of women and men to remain partnerless. The achievement factor is one that rings particularly clearly to me in the African American community. The percentage of women who have achieved a degree of stability in their lives versus men is totally out of proportion and has caused a crisis in terms of long term commitment and marriage. For many women the outlook is dismal. They have been raised with particular standards and have spent their lives cultivating their talents and careers. But many are not finding counterparts in the male sector of the community. Some have married out of their social class and had their own particular challenges, others have not married and have lived fruitful lives. They may however desire to have a partner with whom they can relate but demographics do not seem to be on their side.

NJ, Choco, guys all can weigh in on my theory . In fact, please do....

I have touched on this a million times. Demographers get nervous when ratios of men to women get more than 51/49. Women now get 59% of degrees. In the African American community its like 80/20. And its getting worse for all races. Almost 50% of med students are women and likely Asian or Indian.

FACTS Table 27: Total U.S. Medical School Graduates by Race and Ethnicity within Sex

Women just seem more goal oriented.
 

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I have touched on this a million times. Demographers get nervous when ratios of men to women get more than 51/49. Women now get 59% of degrees. In the African American community its like 80/20. And its getting worse for all races. Almost 50% of med students are women and likely Asian or Indian. -

We always were goal oriented... the goal being survival. Once men stopped providing and cutting out on their responsibilities we had to take up the slack. What better way to do that than by obtaining a college degree.

In my view the whole premise of women being the limited resource is inaccurate. Women are more numerous than men in almost all cultures, unless infanticide is practiced.
Men are the more limited resource. Male children are more likely to die in all phases of growth than female children. The competition amongst men isn't for women in general. The competition is for women that are uncommonly pretty, uncommonly healthy looking, or uncommonly wealthy. That is what men are really revealing when they say women are a limited resource.
Well stated, and since I know the OP personally I know this is true in his case. He is phenomenally picky about the women he dates. :rolleyes:


Women seek for the very limited resource of men that can actually provide. Good looking men get passed over for responsible men quite frequently once that good looking guy opens his mouth and reveals himself to be an idiot with a terrible pick up line.
That is so true! Good looking stupid men are not attractive in any way shape or form. Men should spend as much time exercising their brains as their biceps and they might find that there are an unlimited number of women available to them.:cool:

Women's recent sexual liberation has made things easier for good looking men that have nothing else to offer, in generations past they would seldom get a chance :tongue:
My great-grandmother had a phrase for that kind of man. She used to tell us that we were not to bring breath & britches in her house. :lmao: Translation: if he is just a pretty boy breathing God's air & contributing nothing to society then he wasn't good enough for us and was not welcome in her home.:cool:
 

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Perhaps rather than wommen being a limiting factor the real issue is explained in relitivly resont artical in new scientist: Bad guys really do get the most girls - sex - 18 June 2008 - New Scientist

This i think covers the interlectual/biological programing thing very well, the artical explains how studies have shown that wommen are sexualy atracted to the three main anti-sosial trates in men. It describes these as the James Bond trates- manipulative, selfish and thrill seeking. It talks about two studies, one covering 200 collage students and one covering 35,000 people in 57 countries. Covering a huge number of cultures.

The surgestion being that lots of sex with that sort of a guy early on means children who are more agressive and more likly to survive, passing on genes but eventualy moving onto a more stable nice guy who will stick around and help raise children. Is this the biological programing were now trying to overcome?

What i think is sad is that guys know that the nice guy doesnt get the girl and i have lots of friends, or at least know lots of people, who play to this in order to get laid! (Im student age so perhaps that explains it!) Equaly i know a lot of girls who complain bitterly about the boys but refuse to go out with the nice guys.

Perhaps though the sexual revelution might change that, i knwo in the short term most people here seam to think its incresed the problem but in the long term that might change. With the advent of contraception the dark triad of personality trates gets you laid but it doesnt get your genes passed on. Its the nice guys who end up getting married that have children, perhaps this will mean a decline in the "bad guys"? I hope so at least.
 

Wyldgusechaz

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Perhaps rather than wommen being a limiting factor the real issue is explained in relitivly resont artical in new scientist: Bad guys really do get the most girls - sex - 18 June 2008 - New Scientist

This i think covers the interlectual/biological programing thing very well, the artical explains how studies have shown that wommen are sexualy atracted to the three main anti-sosial trates in men. It describes these as the James Bond trates- manipulative, selfish and thrill seeking. It talks about two studies, one covering 200 collage students and one covering 35,000 people in 57 countries. Covering a huge number of cultures.

The surgestion being that lots of sex with that sort of a guy early on means children who are more agressive and more likly to survive, passing on genes but eventualy moving onto a more stable nice guy who will stick around and help raise children. Is this the biological programing were now trying to overcome?

What i think is sad is that guys know that the nice guy doesnt get the girl and i have lots of friends, or at least know lots of people, who play to this in order to get laid! (Im student age so perhaps that explains it!) Equaly i know a lot of girls who complain bitterly about the boys but refuse to go out with the nice guys.

Perhaps though the sexual revelution might change that, i knwo in the short term most people here seam to think its incresed the problem but in the long term that might change. With the advent of contraception the dark triad of personality trates gets you laid but it doesnt get your genes passed on. Its the nice guys who end up getting married that have children, perhaps this will mean a decline in the "bad guys"? I hope so at least.

I am not sure I agree but since its there in black and white, I have to try.

I have asked this question a bunch of times to women: how long does it take to decide across a room if a guy is fuckable? The answer virtually every single time? 30 seconds!!

Here is what I think happens: You see a woman across a room, you get a smile from her, and you have like 2-5 minutes to walk up and say hi, not a line but intro yourself. If you take more time than that, you are toast. The smile is a sign that she is saying yes, you are fuckable.

Now here is the tough part: You intro yourself and start the couple banter. This whole verbal dance is a way of HER mind confirming what her body has already said yes to. If you blow it here, you are again toast. Say something stupid, glance too long at another woman and boom!! you are toast. And here is the tricky part: this is where your bad boy needs to run free: You need to enter the idea of sex into the conversation b/4 10 minutes is up. In some way raise the stakes about who you are, that you are sexual and that you are interested in her sexually. It does not have to be overt but she needs to feel like you are sexual. Other wise you become *friend* material and you are again toast. Once you are labeled in her mind *friend* you might as well be dickless.

I am pretty good at this. Last night I met this Ukraninian physician, very very beautiful. In 45 minutes we were outside in this park making out and fondling each other like crazy. She was almost 16 years younger than me. I hate to say its cook book but it almost is. Make sure she knows you are interested in her and her alone, never look at another chick in the bar if you want her, and never let yourself get labeled friend material. If you got the smile across the room, she said "I want to fuck you, now prove that you are worth it as a man." Thats where the * bad boy*, in some way has to show his head. If you talk about the democratic national convention or the price of oil or your new golf clubs, you are dead. You want her to keep thinking you are fuckable.

I should say this. the lovely Ukrainian doc was talking to another guy, younger than me, about bridge, the card game!! He was going on and on, for like 15 minutes on how he plays and did she want to learn how to play bridge, and condemning himself to *friend* status. He got up for a sec, and I said to her, "what do you find most attractive in a man, broad shoulders, nice smile, his eyes?" I know this sounds hokey but instantly her whole demeanor changed, and she turned her body to me and sort of opened her shoulders and arms and chest. Even though I could hardly understand her due to her accent, I knew it was going to be easy. Sadly she was a bad kisser tho. :( Incredible figure tho.
 
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That's where I draw the line, someone starts complaining to me about "men this and that", I walk away from that discussion. Too much emotional baggage and anything I do will be scrutinized as similar behavior. I'm not an emotional tampon. You spend way too much time trying to rationalize why, over a person you don't even know or care to ever meet. At that point you have to know your chances are over, and you're right, you might as well have a vagina, game over and maybe they do it to put you into the friend's box.

As for language barriers, I don't even try there either, it's never going to get any better and a communication problem is bound to lead to misunderstandings. I don't have time to sort those out. It just wasn't meant to be and way too much effort. Maybe he was talking about bridge because he was hoping and waiting for someone to come over and take the lead/rock without just being rude and walking away to leave her alone. He was probably thinking, 15 minutes, what took this guy so long to bail me out here ? BTW, that was cruel for you not to have gone over sooner, because now she actually thinks that other dude really wants to play bridge and when she needs that partner, he'll have to find a way out of that.
 
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Wow Phil,

What a statement for transparency. I have really enjoyed reading the posts in this thread. You have probably touched upon some of the issues that are causing whole groups of women and men to remain partnerless. The achievement factor is one that rings particularly clearly to me in the African American community. The percentage of women who have achieved a degree of stability in their lives versus men is totally out of proportion and has caused a crisis in terms of long term commitment and marriage. For many women the outlook is dismal. They have been raised with particular standards and have spent their lives cultivating their talents and careers. But many are not finding counterparts in the male sector of the community. Some have married out of their social class and had their own particular challenges, others have not married and have lived fruitful lives. They may however desire to have a partner with whom they can relate but demographics do not seem to be on their side.

I have posted this b/4. Women are kicking the crap out of men in terms of accomplishment. Men want an extended childhood while women want to get down to the business of growing up quick. A college degree ration of 59 W/41 M is horribly skewed.

I have touched on this a million times. Demographers get nervous when ratios of men to women get more than 51/49. Women now get 59% of degrees. In the African American community its like 80/20. And its getting worse for all races. Almost 50% of med students are women and likely Asian or Indian.

FACTS Table 27: Total U.S. Medical School Graduates by Race and Ethnicity within Sex

Women just seem more goal oriented.

Oh Sex and the City! If any single cultural icon demonstrates how the tables have turned, that show does. Watch Sex and the City back to back with Mad Men to see where we think we are and where we think we were. The girls of Sex and the City leaf through men as if they were browsing through GQ. They can pick and choose, need not worry about becoming pregnant (even when Miranda does), make oodles of their own money, have satisfying sex lives, and casually dump any man who doesn't hold their interest. They make men the limiting resource because they find so few of who meet their standards. Particularly intriguing is Samantha because she is written as a man and it is through Samantha that we see how women view men in their sexual lives. And who does Samantha end up with in the end? The intellectual-equal billionaire? Nope. She took the trophy boytoy.

One other cultural icon gets me thinking too and that's Abercrombie & Fitch. I wrote here about going into their flagship store here in Manhattan and the reason I went was to experience what made them so popular because, in my head, A&F is very definitely a product of its time. Why? Because it displays men as the limiting resource, virtually tells them that they must be beautiful, coiffed, manscaped, buff, and have an ass that won't quit.

Men are the new women.

A&F has been noted to be an exceedingly gay store but until now, it has only been within gay society that men have been limiting resources. Gay men have to work to get chosen by other men whereas, in the straight world, it has always been women who were pursued by men. In those days, it was the women who cared about fashion, who had to look great, who had to display to attract men who basically only had to have a modicum of grooming and reasonably neat attire. Now that the tables are turned, our notion of women's beauty has changed to fit their role in society. They can have short hair, be fit, and wear far more practical clothing than ever before. Heavy makeup is out. In contrast, men are far more body conscious than they have ever been. I suspect that as the ratio of women to men in the position of top earners and leaders continues to skew more in favor of women that men will become more competitive amongst each other in order to sexually attract the right woman.

A&F is the tip of that iceberg. LPSG also reflects that trend. When I was young, men were hairy Burt Reynolds-ish things and a man was supposed to not care how big his dick is because all he should care about is having a good time for himself and any size dick can have a good time. To make the penis even less of an issue, men invented such myths that if women didn't get off during sex then it was her problem. And that's actually an improvement from the Victorian myth that women didn't enjoy sex at all! Now however, look at how many guys, many young, are all over this site worrying no end about their penis size. They're concerned about their sexual performance, how their genitals look, taste, smell, and perform. Most interesting is that they want to know how they compare to other males and how to perform well for women in all aspects from dressing to what to say. There is a self-consciousness to their questions and whereas many older guys say to the younger, "just learn to use it well and be happy," and whereas that answer may have sufficed when I was young, these days that's not enough. Men are now becoming as sexually objectified as women have been for a very long time and that is because women have more parity than ever. Women will soon be the majority of the power holders in this country and most other western countries as well; particularly Russia where the disparity between educated men and women resembles that of black America.

I think men of my age and older are completely unprepared to usher in younger men to adulthood in this new gender paradigm. It wasn't something we planned for. I think many younger men feel today, "Why bother taking a traditional male role if women are going to do it for us?" I know there are studies taking issue with the purported feminization of education, making classrooms hostile to boys in general, but if that really is an issue, I think it's just a symptom of a larger problem defined, as I think men see it, that we don't know what it is to be a man these days. It's not defined for men by any ritual rite of passage, not something fathers can convey to sons, not something you can read about in books or see on TV. Women don't seem to know what they want in a man either. For men, women seem contradictory in so many ways that to satisfy one requirement is to not provide another. As was pointed out, women say they want one thing but frequently take another.

Maybe straight men are all doomed to be househusbands, but I kinda doubt that. What concerns me is the same thing that Naughty mentioned about the black community. Men who feel disenfranchised and purposeless get into trouble and always have. Men need purpose, need to be needed, need to provide. When women can earn enough to support themselves and kids, then what use are men other than walking sperm packets? Even that doesn't matter much. If a woman doesn't care for her selection of men, she can just order a straw full of genius or Olympian sperm over the internet. If that sounds a bit ridiculous to women, keep in mind men highly prize that which is useful and women have never had to face that problem because men needed women to bear and raise children. When it comes to reproduction, 99% of the effort is the mother's even if the child is half of the father. Women are enormously useful to men whereas men in our society aren't all that useful to women and are becoming less so.

Where that leaves men I don't know. Will boys born today be expected to earn less, have a glass ceiling, raise children at home, lie in bed hoping a girl calls, worrying so much about their appearance or sexual prowess they become sick about it?

Maybe they should be worrying. When news outlets carry such alarming stories as The End of Men, we men have to wonder if women aren't going to start building Stepford husbands in the basement in their spare time.
 

Wyldgusechaz

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Oh Sex and the City! If any single cultural icon demonstrates how the tables have turned, that show does. Watch Sex and the City back to back with Mad Men to see where we think we are and where we think we were. The girls of Sex and the City leaf through men as if they were browsing through GQ. They can pick and choose, need not worry about becoming pregnant (even when Miranda does), make oodles of their own money, have satisfying sex lives, and casually dump any man who doesn't hold their interest. They make men the limiting resource because they find so few of who meet their standards. Particularly intriguing is Samantha because she is written as a man and it is through Samantha that we see how women view men in their sexual lives. And who does Samantha end up with in the end? The intellectual-equal billionaire? Nope. She took the trophy boytoy.

One other cultural icon gets me thinking too and that's Abercrombie & Fitch. I wrote here about going into their flagship store here in Manhattan and the reason I went was to experience what made them so popular because, in my head, A&F is very definitely a product of its time. Why? Because it displays men as the limiting resource, virtually tells them that they must be beautiful, coiffed, manscaped, buff, and have an ass that won't quit.

Men are the new women.

A&F has been noted to be an exceedingly gay store but until now, it has only been within gay society that men have been limiting resources. Gay men have to work to get chosen by other men whereas, in the straight world, it has always been women who were pursued by men. In those days, it was the women who cared about fashion, who had to look great, who had to display to attract men who basically only had to have a modicum of grooming and reasonably neat attire. Now that the tables are turned, our notion of women's beauty has changed to fit their role in society. They can have short hair, be fit, and wear far more practical clothing than ever before. Heavy makeup is out. In contrast, men are far more body conscious than they have ever been. I suspect that as the ratio of women to men in the position of top earners and leaders continues to skew more in favor of women that men will become more competitive amongst each other in order to sexually attract the right woman.

A&F is the tip of that iceberg. LPSG also reflects that trend. When I was young, men were hairy Burt Reynolds-ish things and a man was supposed to not care how big his dick is because all he should care about is having a good time for himself and any size dick can have a good time. To make the penis even less of an issue, men invented such myths that if women didn't get off during sex then it was her problem. And that's actually an improvement from the Victorian myth that women didn't enjoy sex at all! Now however, look at how many guys, many young, are all over this site worrying no end about their penis size. They're concerned about their sexual performance, how their genitals look, taste, smell, and perform. Most interesting is that they want to know how they compare to other males and how to perform well for women in all aspects from dressing to what to say. There is a self-consciousness to their questions and whereas many older guys say to the younger, "just learn to use it well and be happy," and whereas that answer may have sufficed when I was young, these days that's not enough. Men are now becoming as sexually objectified as women have been for a very long time and that is because women have more parity than ever. Women will soon be the majority of the power holders in this country and most other western countries as well; particularly Russia where the disparity between educated men and women resembles that of black America.

I think men of my age and older are completely unprepared to usher in younger men to adulthood in this new gender paradigm. It wasn't something we planned for. I think many younger men feel today, "Why bother taking a traditional male role if women are going to do it for us?" I know there are studies taking issue with the purported feminization of education, making classrooms hostile to boys in general, but if that really is an issue, I think it's just a symptom of a larger problem defined, as I think men see it, that we don't know what it is to be a man these days. It's not defined for men by any ritual rite of passage, not something fathers can convey to sons, not something you can read about in books or see on TV. Women don't seem to know what they want in a man either. For men, women seem contradictory in so many ways that to satisfy one requirement is to not provide another. As was pointed out, women say they want one thing but frequently take another.

Maybe straight men are all doomed to be househusbands, but I kinda doubt that. What concerns me is the same thing that Naughty mentioned about the black community. Men who feel disenfranchised and purposeless get into trouble and always have. Men need purpose, need to be needed, need to provide. When women can earn enough to support themselves and kids, then what use are men other than walking sperm packets? Even that doesn't matter much. If a woman doesn't care for her selection of men, she can just order a straw full of genius or Olympian sperm over the internet. If that sounds a bit ridiculous to women, keep in mind men highly prize that which is useful and women have never had to face that problem because men needed women to bear and raise children. When it comes to reproduction, 99% of the effort is the mother's even if the child is half of the father. Women are enormously useful to men whereas men in our society aren't all that useful to women and are becoming less so.

Where that leaves men I don't know. Will boys born today be expected to earn less, have a glass ceiling, raise children at home, lie in bed hoping a girl calls, worrying so much about their appearance or sexual prowess they become sick about it?

Maybe they should be worrying. When news outlets carry such alarming stories as The End of Men, we men have to wonder if women aren't going to start building Stepford husbands in the basement in their spare time.

This is one of the most astute posts I have ever read here. This should be required reading for all.

Women want to be fucked. They want to be fucked by a man who knows how to fuck them like a real man and make them feel like a real woman. (Whatever that is for both) However they ain't fucking someone below their pay grade, to use a civil service term. They just don't have to.
 

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This is one of the most astute posts I have ever read here. This should be required reading for all.

Women want to be fucked. They want to be fucked by a man who knows how to fuck them like a real man and make them feel like a real woman. (Whatever that is for both) However they ain't fucking someone below their pay grade, to use a civil service term. They just don't have to.

Well that's not true. How are Miranda and Steve equals in terms of payscale and social position? And if women have so much parity, how is it men still earn more than them for doing the same job?
 

Wyldgusechaz

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Well that's not true. How are Miranda and Steve equals in terms of payscale and social position? And if women have so much parity, how is it men still earn more than them for doing the same job?

Its just a phrase, as used by Barack Obama when asked about the point of conception, he said, "I will leave that answer to someone above my pay grade." Miranda and Steve ain't real life.
 

Runco

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Its just a phrase, as used by Barack Obama when asked about the point of conception, he said, "I will leave that answer to someone above my pay grade." Miranda and Steve ain't real life.

Well I realise that Miranda and Steve are not real. It's just that you called Jason els post "one of the most astute posts here" and

quote:
This should be required reading for all.

Women want to be fucked. They want to be fucked by a man who knows how to fuck them like a real man and make them feel like a real woman. (Whatever that is for both) However they ain't fucking someone below their pay grade, to use a civil service term. They just don't have to.

Given that Jason's post was all about behaviors on SATC and, presumably, so was your answer, hence my question...
 

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jason_els seems to be missing the point, from my perspective.
Surely, men want to be needed, and want to have purpose. Definitely I agree with that. However, most of these men that are not feeling needed do not *make* themselves needed.

Most women would rather raise their children as a full time job, at least until the children well into their teen years. Most of us don't find random careers to be more fulfilling than raising our families and caring for our husbands. The workplace is often full of backstabbing and random drama that most of us women have enough of without needing to get it at work (we backstab ourselves during that time of the month :redface:. ) Some women are not maternal at all, or dislike the care-giver role, but they are in the very small minority. We don't want to leave our homes and children every morning just to deal with customers or clients that we don't have much time nor emotion invested in.

Most women do this because we need to. A lot of women go to university merely to meet an educated man, because a lot of the men in the pubs don't have much of a future, hehe. If men were making themselves needed by being good providers and present fathers, women would not be working their hearts out trying to do it all ourselves. I don't know even one single mother who would not trade her job for a good husband.

Too many males don't want to grow up anymore. Be a responsible adult and women will find they *need* you. Women will need you to provide for the household. Women will need you to teach their sons how to be men. Women will need you to show their daughters what it means to have respectable man in their lives. Women will need you to let them LOVE you (and we REALLY REALLY WANT TO.) And occasionally women will need you to punch some punters lights out for disrespecting us :tongue: