H8Monga: Gotta love Jerry Falwell!
Oh and the Van Impes (sp)... now they are C.R.E.E.P.Y.!
Oh and the Van Impes (sp)... now they are C.R.E.E.P.Y.!
prepstudinsc: [quote author=AnonyMs link=board=99;num=1057179521;start=20#26 date=07/06/03 at 15:21:53]Most television evangelists really annoy me, too....[/quote]
Televangelists have given the Christian denominations a bad name. I live in the shadows of the former PTL compound....it is less than 10 minutes from my house.
Tammy Faye still lives in the area with her second husband--who has served jail time for tax fraud. I know some of the top Christian preachers in the United States. Some of them are good and actually live the message they preach. However, many of them don't. They didn't learn from the fall of Jim and Tammy Faye Bakker. Then there's the Jimmy Swaggarts of the world who get caught with their pants down, make a big show of being repentant with tears streaming down their face, and then a few Sundays later are back in the pulpit.
Being a musician, I also know many of the top gospel musicians. Some of them are just as bad as televangelists. What they do and say on stage is quite different than how they act off stage. They surely don't act like Christians when they are behind the scenes, but get them on stage, and suddenly there is an instantaneous transformation into "Super-Christian."
Don't get me started on the scandals that have rocked churches--not just the Catholics--involving minors. There is a youth minister in my town who was indicted for molestation. There is an associate pastor of a large church about 20 miles from here who was arrested and put in jail for domestic abuse of his wife.
It's that kind of stuff that gives religion a bad name and makes us Christians look like hypocrites. Unfortunately, the media tends to gravitate towards the more flamboyant, staged, and fringe Christian groups, rather than the people who are actually living out their faith by helping the poor, the sick, the hungry, the illiterate, those who are hurting, refugees, etc. It's not newsworthy to ever cover those of us "normal" Christians who quietly go about our lives, spreading the Good News and living out Jesus' commands to love our neighbors and to spread the Gospel.
I get riled up when I see these charlatains on TV making six and seven figure salaries and living in palatial residences, while the people who are funding their lavish lifestyles are scraping pennies together.
At my former church, a new pastor was hired. I was one of 26 people out of over 2800 voting members who voted "no" to hire him. I had a stange premonition--I got a feeling that he was going to be a fake and only concerned about himself. Well I was right. He fired a bunch of the staff and hired his friends to come on staff. He gave everyone big salaries and got his salary bumped up to over $150,000 a year. All he does is preach on Sunday. He doesn't visit the membership, he doesn't teach any classes, he doesn't even spend time in the office. He's more interested in riding his Harley around with his buddies or driving his new Corvette to the local country club to play golf. He doesn't worship God, he worships money, power and fame. To me, that's sacreligious and is a heresy, yet on Sundays, he is up in the pulpit proclaiming how wonderful Jesus is. When he was hired, I chose to leave because I didn't like him and I let him know why I was leaving. The funny thing is now, 5 years later, that many others have come to see that the 26 of us were correct and that they made a mistake. A good chunk of the congregation left, including 4 or 5 multi-multi millionaires, who took their money with them. The church is now struggling to keep afloat. The 40 million dollar building is beginning to show signs of wear and tear and they don't have money to fix things. Programs are being cut and activities are being cancelled.
That's two faced and that is how most of the televangelists and many other so-called Christian media figures are. But I know God is in control and that God will take care of these people in time. They are going to have to account for their deeds.
It's no wonder that people search elsewhere for answers. If I wasn't grounded in my faith, I would be searching. If Jesus came back today, he'd be sickened by what he saw.....because the sad thing is that all of it is done in Jesus' name. Now talk about blasphemy. In the meantime, I'm going to try to show God's love in everything I do because God commands us to do so.
One final thought before I descend out of my pulpit again...I do not do things things in order to gain salvation and go to heaven. I serve others because I am saved by my faith in Jesus and that makes me want to go out and show God's love to others. The works are a by-product of faith, not a substitute for faith.
I'm not condeming those who aren't believers, all I can do is tell you what God has done for me. After that, the ball is in your court.
Ok, I'm sounding like a televangelist, so I'm going to shut up now....
Televangelists have given the Christian denominations a bad name. I live in the shadows of the former PTL compound....it is less than 10 minutes from my house.
Tammy Faye still lives in the area with her second husband--who has served jail time for tax fraud. I know some of the top Christian preachers in the United States. Some of them are good and actually live the message they preach. However, many of them don't. They didn't learn from the fall of Jim and Tammy Faye Bakker. Then there's the Jimmy Swaggarts of the world who get caught with their pants down, make a big show of being repentant with tears streaming down their face, and then a few Sundays later are back in the pulpit.
Being a musician, I also know many of the top gospel musicians. Some of them are just as bad as televangelists. What they do and say on stage is quite different than how they act off stage. They surely don't act like Christians when they are behind the scenes, but get them on stage, and suddenly there is an instantaneous transformation into "Super-Christian."
Don't get me started on the scandals that have rocked churches--not just the Catholics--involving minors. There is a youth minister in my town who was indicted for molestation. There is an associate pastor of a large church about 20 miles from here who was arrested and put in jail for domestic abuse of his wife.
It's that kind of stuff that gives religion a bad name and makes us Christians look like hypocrites. Unfortunately, the media tends to gravitate towards the more flamboyant, staged, and fringe Christian groups, rather than the people who are actually living out their faith by helping the poor, the sick, the hungry, the illiterate, those who are hurting, refugees, etc. It's not newsworthy to ever cover those of us "normal" Christians who quietly go about our lives, spreading the Good News and living out Jesus' commands to love our neighbors and to spread the Gospel.
I get riled up when I see these charlatains on TV making six and seven figure salaries and living in palatial residences, while the people who are funding their lavish lifestyles are scraping pennies together.
At my former church, a new pastor was hired. I was one of 26 people out of over 2800 voting members who voted "no" to hire him. I had a stange premonition--I got a feeling that he was going to be a fake and only concerned about himself. Well I was right. He fired a bunch of the staff and hired his friends to come on staff. He gave everyone big salaries and got his salary bumped up to over $150,000 a year. All he does is preach on Sunday. He doesn't visit the membership, he doesn't teach any classes, he doesn't even spend time in the office. He's more interested in riding his Harley around with his buddies or driving his new Corvette to the local country club to play golf. He doesn't worship God, he worships money, power and fame. To me, that's sacreligious and is a heresy, yet on Sundays, he is up in the pulpit proclaiming how wonderful Jesus is. When he was hired, I chose to leave because I didn't like him and I let him know why I was leaving. The funny thing is now, 5 years later, that many others have come to see that the 26 of us were correct and that they made a mistake. A good chunk of the congregation left, including 4 or 5 multi-multi millionaires, who took their money with them. The church is now struggling to keep afloat. The 40 million dollar building is beginning to show signs of wear and tear and they don't have money to fix things. Programs are being cut and activities are being cancelled.
That's two faced and that is how most of the televangelists and many other so-called Christian media figures are. But I know God is in control and that God will take care of these people in time. They are going to have to account for their deeds.
It's no wonder that people search elsewhere for answers. If I wasn't grounded in my faith, I would be searching. If Jesus came back today, he'd be sickened by what he saw.....because the sad thing is that all of it is done in Jesus' name. Now talk about blasphemy. In the meantime, I'm going to try to show God's love in everything I do because God commands us to do so.
One final thought before I descend out of my pulpit again...I do not do things things in order to gain salvation and go to heaven. I serve others because I am saved by my faith in Jesus and that makes me want to go out and show God's love to others. The works are a by-product of faith, not a substitute for faith.
I'm not condeming those who aren't believers, all I can do is tell you what God has done for me. After that, the ball is in your court.
Ok, I'm sounding like a televangelist, so I'm going to shut up now....
[quote author=AnonyMs link=board=99;num=1057179521;start=20#23 date=07/06/03 at 13:07:49]One question for you, Dee - are you willing to die for your belief system?[/quote]
Absolutely. Such conviction is heroic because, even in the face of ultimate doubt, there is more than enough security with which to hold on to, to stay firm to what one truly believes, regardless of how that differs from another's view. Heroics like that are what Joan of Arc "survive" being burned at the stake, so to speak; yes, she died a most brutal death, but she did so in relinquishment to God and to her own achieved holiness in fighting for the French.
But I made that same heroism in two other figures.
David Hume, an empirical philosoher, was reported to have turned away from the minister, even on his deathbed when asked to give a confession. He looked adrift and said nothing as he perished, silent, utterly stoic. For that, he literally demonstrated his willingness to die for his belief; his empirical stance on the world determined that that which supposedly exists beyond the senses is of no importance, God included. He didn't repent.
Socrates, too, died for his beliefs, even though the Athenian democracy wrongly accused him of corrupting the youth -- simply because the elders feared he made the youth too powerful per their willingness to question the order and popular understanding of things. He provoked people to think, and on top of it, had not the ego and pretentiousness of someone who knew the effects his teachings had in that society. Forced for execution, Socrates, in his last few minutes on his earth, urged his friends to be brave and strong and not to weep unnecessary -- remember him by being courageous enough to think and act for themselves regardless of what someone in power calls the "truth."
That's incredibly heroic to me. I'm still a young guy who's still very much involved in finding himself, but you know what? Looking at what these men and women did, you know, I can't hold them in anything but awe. They were so sure in themselves, so secure in their own self-attained knowledge, it couldn't be compromised.
Maybe I hope for such bravery because I know, in my own experience, religion was something to believe in simply because, it seemed, the fear of not believing was too great a risk. For instance, oh dear, what happens if I don't start praying? Don't start attending church? Am I "Christian enough" to be saved?! Oh no!
I don't think a solid theory of truth should have that much fear behind it as a means of reiterating/maintaining devotion. That's twisted to me. And, well, at least this point, I'm more than prepared to say, even in the face of God on that Judgment Day we keep hearing about -- yeah, I didn't believe. I know I'm not the only one. And if He's the ultimate end... well, I can accept my fate.
Absolutely. Such conviction is heroic because, even in the face of ultimate doubt, there is more than enough security with which to hold on to, to stay firm to what one truly believes, regardless of how that differs from another's view. Heroics like that are what Joan of Arc "survive" being burned at the stake, so to speak; yes, she died a most brutal death, but she did so in relinquishment to God and to her own achieved holiness in fighting for the French.
But I made that same heroism in two other figures.
David Hume, an empirical philosoher, was reported to have turned away from the minister, even on his deathbed when asked to give a confession. He looked adrift and said nothing as he perished, silent, utterly stoic. For that, he literally demonstrated his willingness to die for his belief; his empirical stance on the world determined that that which supposedly exists beyond the senses is of no importance, God included. He didn't repent.
Socrates, too, died for his beliefs, even though the Athenian democracy wrongly accused him of corrupting the youth -- simply because the elders feared he made the youth too powerful per their willingness to question the order and popular understanding of things. He provoked people to think, and on top of it, had not the ego and pretentiousness of someone who knew the effects his teachings had in that society. Forced for execution, Socrates, in his last few minutes on his earth, urged his friends to be brave and strong and not to weep unnecessary -- remember him by being courageous enough to think and act for themselves regardless of what someone in power calls the "truth."
That's incredibly heroic to me. I'm still a young guy who's still very much involved in finding himself, but you know what? Looking at what these men and women did, you know, I can't hold them in anything but awe. They were so sure in themselves, so secure in their own self-attained knowledge, it couldn't be compromised.
Maybe I hope for such bravery because I know, in my own experience, religion was something to believe in simply because, it seemed, the fear of not believing was too great a risk. For instance, oh dear, what happens if I don't start praying? Don't start attending church? Am I "Christian enough" to be saved?! Oh no!
I don't think a solid theory of truth should have that much fear behind it as a means of reiterating/maintaining devotion. That's twisted to me. And, well, at least this point, I'm more than prepared to say, even in the face of God on that Judgment Day we keep hearing about -- yeah, I didn't believe. I know I'm not the only one. And if He's the ultimate end... well, I can accept my fate.
[quote author=Javierdude23 link=board=99;num=1057179521;start=0#17 date=07/06/03 at 02:01:35]
DMW - i think theres also mention of it in Romans, don't know where exactly, but it's there (by St. Paul). But still, there is open interpretation possible there.[/quote]
Yeah, there is a mention in the first chapter of Romans that 'men gave up natural intercourse with women and burned with lust for one another.' It sounds to me like he's referring to men who were primarily heterosexual to begin with and 'turned gay', if that's actually possible. Possible or not, that certainly isn't me! Beyond that, remember that St. Paul was still Saul of Tarsus. Sure, he was the Apostle to the Gentiles. Sure, he was a citizen of Rome. But he was still Jewish, and early Christianity was heavily influenced by Judaism. St. Paul came from a culture that had viewed homosexuality as an abomination for over a millenium. Why do we think he would drop all his Jewish points of view upon his conversion?
It's not that I wouldn't able to count them; I just never bothered to keep a tally. That's a big difference. It's not like I've had an astronomical number of partners. I have a conscience and free will. Sure, I've indulged in casual sex; I don't think I'll burn for it. Sex as an expression as love is the ideal, but I don't think that sex without love is inherently 'evil'; it's just not the perfect realization of what sex can be. If someone feels that casual sex is wrong for him, then he shouldn't engage in it. His code of morality, however, is not the same as mine, and I must follow my own conscience rather than consult other people's rule books.
DMW - i think theres also mention of it in Romans, don't know where exactly, but it's there (by St. Paul). But still, there is open interpretation possible there.[/quote]
Yeah, there is a mention in the first chapter of Romans that 'men gave up natural intercourse with women and burned with lust for one another.' It sounds to me like he's referring to men who were primarily heterosexual to begin with and 'turned gay', if that's actually possible. Possible or not, that certainly isn't me! Beyond that, remember that St. Paul was still Saul of Tarsus. Sure, he was the Apostle to the Gentiles. Sure, he was a citizen of Rome. But he was still Jewish, and early Christianity was heavily influenced by Judaism. St. Paul came from a culture that had viewed homosexuality as an abomination for over a millenium. Why do we think he would drop all his Jewish points of view upon his conversion?
It's not that I wouldn't able to count them; I just never bothered to keep a tally. That's a big difference. It's not like I've had an astronomical number of partners. I have a conscience and free will. Sure, I've indulged in casual sex; I don't think I'll burn for it. Sex as an expression as love is the ideal, but I don't think that sex without love is inherently 'evil'; it's just not the perfect realization of what sex can be. If someone feels that casual sex is wrong for him, then he shouldn't engage in it. His code of morality, however, is not the same as mine, and I must follow my own conscience rather than consult other people's rule books.
Javierdude22: Anonymous....you hit the spot...it kinda is my question, i have a lotta difficulty with it all..especially if your brought up believing you'll go to a nice longlasting barbecue party if you practice it and all...it bites.
About the discussion that unfolded itself. Dee, i see your point very clearly. I have had strong periods, and sometimes still have a couple of less strong ones, where i'm thinking: what the hell am i talking into the air for? Why all that suffering? Why create people with biblical paradoxes? Etc etc. The thing is that i am very conscious about my character, my way of thinking, in a psychological way. So sometimes when i experience a happy feeling, or a feeling of comfort related to God, i also start thinking: what if it is a chemical reaction in your brain that triggers happiness or comfort when confronted with that particular situation (am i making sense). But the thing is: these truely happy moments are not abundant, not to me anyways, and i do experience them to happen in relation to God.
Look, i think no one will be able to answers your and my own questions. It amazes me how not even Ministers i consider to be wise and have integrity, have solid answers to questions like: why did God create people with disabilities, why war etc etc? You get to: 'we have a free will' but that to me doesnt suffice either. Every now and then i think: what if we're a buncha atoms that will fall apart when we die? What if the light at the end of the tunnel, or the near death experiences so many claim to have are psychological reactions sparked by a dying body? I don't know....my Minister doesn't know, or at leat, his answer doesnt fullfill me.
But the thing is, at the end of the day, when i feel like crap about something, and i talk to The Big Guy upstairs about it, i have a genuine feeling i'm being listened to, and i get happy(ier). When someone dear to me has died...the exscrutiating pain is NOT relieved i can tell you that...but....weird as it sounds....i dó feel another person carrying the weight with me. And it might all be a hoax, it might all be chemicals and atoms f-king with my head, but....if you ask me...that's giving too much credit to our puny little brains.
Socrates was a wise man, and many others of the ancient world as well ( i remember i liked Seneca a lot)...many others were a little less wise but they did crack some windows to let some fresh air in (Nietschze). To me however, they did not hand me a new way i can explain life's events, but a way i can déal with or look at them.
My 2 cents
About the discussion that unfolded itself. Dee, i see your point very clearly. I have had strong periods, and sometimes still have a couple of less strong ones, where i'm thinking: what the hell am i talking into the air for? Why all that suffering? Why create people with biblical paradoxes? Etc etc. The thing is that i am very conscious about my character, my way of thinking, in a psychological way. So sometimes when i experience a happy feeling, or a feeling of comfort related to God, i also start thinking: what if it is a chemical reaction in your brain that triggers happiness or comfort when confronted with that particular situation (am i making sense). But the thing is: these truely happy moments are not abundant, not to me anyways, and i do experience them to happen in relation to God.
Look, i think no one will be able to answers your and my own questions. It amazes me how not even Ministers i consider to be wise and have integrity, have solid answers to questions like: why did God create people with disabilities, why war etc etc? You get to: 'we have a free will' but that to me doesnt suffice either. Every now and then i think: what if we're a buncha atoms that will fall apart when we die? What if the light at the end of the tunnel, or the near death experiences so many claim to have are psychological reactions sparked by a dying body? I don't know....my Minister doesn't know, or at leat, his answer doesnt fullfill me.
But the thing is, at the end of the day, when i feel like crap about something, and i talk to The Big Guy upstairs about it, i have a genuine feeling i'm being listened to, and i get happy(ier). When someone dear to me has died...the exscrutiating pain is NOT relieved i can tell you that...but....weird as it sounds....i dó feel another person carrying the weight with me. And it might all be a hoax, it might all be chemicals and atoms f-king with my head, but....if you ask me...that's giving too much credit to our puny little brains.
Socrates was a wise man, and many others of the ancient world as well ( i remember i liked Seneca a lot)...many others were a little less wise but they did crack some windows to let some fresh air in (Nietschze). To me however, they did not hand me a new way i can explain life's events, but a way i can déal with or look at them.
My 2 cents
throb919: There's so much here. And my humble opinion is truly humbled by the depth of this discussion. My two-cents-worth addresses something Bender said:
And maybe I was lucky. I was brought-up Southern Baptist--"raised in the church" as we used to say--but even growing-up in a small town in North Carolina (1102 people) with all of the prejudices that a 1960s mindest brought, I never experienced Baptist fire-and-brimstone. I was taught "God is love," "Jesus loves me", and (as you cited) "Judge not lest ye be judged." I knew all along that I was gay--but it honestly was not an issue. I knew Jesus loves me, made me, and knows.
Bender, you are a Christian in the ways I think Christ Himself would approve of. I've read many of your posts: you are kind, compassionate, caring, giving, encouraging, true to your convictions, unafraid to take an unpopular stance--all in all (as I can see), a good and kind man. How I wish the so-called "religious right" could see your outreach and outlook as more "Christian" than they'll ever be! You do "touch others with kindness."
Dee, AnonyMs, Javier, DMW, Prepstud, Chubby--all of us: Who knows what we'll have to answer to (and for) one day? But surely the way we live our lives and treat others--even in entertaining such conversations as this one--has got to count for more than "blind" faith. I'd venture there's more true religion in this discussion on a big-dick board than in many Sunday school classes. And wherever the free will comes from to have it, I'm thankful.
Shalom, y'all...
Okay, I'm not out to promote the so-called "gay agenda"; I'm not a single-issue kind-of guy. Really. But it is my frame of reference. I'm gay. I'm not sure the Baptists have done much worse than other denominations there. But I do agree that the Southern Baptist Convention has hurt the cause of Christ in many ways. For me, the final straws were the subjugation of the "obedient wife" to her husband and calls to proselytize Jews. That's not the church I grew up in.
And maybe I was lucky. I was brought-up Southern Baptist--"raised in the church" as we used to say--but even growing-up in a small town in North Carolina (1102 people) with all of the prejudices that a 1960s mindest brought, I never experienced Baptist fire-and-brimstone. I was taught "God is love," "Jesus loves me", and (as you cited) "Judge not lest ye be judged." I knew all along that I was gay--but it honestly was not an issue. I knew Jesus loves me, made me, and knows.
Bender, you are a Christian in the ways I think Christ Himself would approve of. I've read many of your posts: you are kind, compassionate, caring, giving, encouraging, true to your convictions, unafraid to take an unpopular stance--all in all (as I can see), a good and kind man. How I wish the so-called "religious right" could see your outreach and outlook as more "Christian" than they'll ever be! You do "touch others with kindness."
Dee, AnonyMs, Javier, DMW, Prepstud, Chubby--all of us: Who knows what we'll have to answer to (and for) one day? But surely the way we live our lives and treat others--even in entertaining such conversations as this one--has got to count for more than "blind" faith. I'd venture there's more true religion in this discussion on a big-dick board than in many Sunday school classes. And wherever the free will comes from to have it, I'm thankful.
Shalom, y'all...
SchroederJr: Dee: You put a lot of weight on the great skeptics and metaphyscists. Both Hume and Socrates were brilliant men. I'm just wondering, though, have you read any Christian philosophers? Like, say, Kant? If you haven't, I recommend picking up a summary or bio or something. He's an interesting character, often blinded by faith, but with some very good points.
As for me, I'm 18 and very, very unsure where I stand spiritually, but I have come to some conclusions. I have been raised in an extremely right-wing Southern Baptist home (Don Wildmon's voice still makes me cringe). Thus, being gay really didn't fit well into the particular theology that I was raised on, haha. It was originally this conflict between my sexuality and my spirituality that set me down the long road that has gotten me to this point in my life. Eventually I came to a skeptics point of view. I basically came to believe, for a short period, that if I couldn't prove it, I couldn't accept it. However, I've just this year come to a more realized faith.
I believe that a human being needs spirituality in some form or other. Being fully grounded in nothing but the material world is just not healthy for the mind.
I do believe in God, but I'm not really sure it's a Christian god. As for the Bible, I've done a whole lot of studying of it, both through church and my independent study (with a lot of reading on the passages directly or indirectly relating to homosxuality). My current opinion of it is that it is a very important book of philosophy. It seems implausible to me to accept it as 100% infallible. Just look at the four Gospels and tell me who Mary went with to the tomb, who (and how many of them) was waiting for her when she got there, and who she told when she left. Virtually all of them disagree. I do think that the very basic idea of Christianity has it right, though. It's beautiful and amazingly sound. Ironically, its when you throw in the Bible that things get shaky.
Something that I'm coming to really agree with though is a blend of Taoism and Christianity. The two ideas fit really well together.
If you can't tell, I'm fascinated by just about all manner of religious systems. I love studying them and trying to understand them. So who knows... my spiritual philosophy could be totally different in a few months. This is as concrete as my beliefs are now, and that's what I've shared.
As for me, I'm 18 and very, very unsure where I stand spiritually, but I have come to some conclusions. I have been raised in an extremely right-wing Southern Baptist home (Don Wildmon's voice still makes me cringe). Thus, being gay really didn't fit well into the particular theology that I was raised on, haha. It was originally this conflict between my sexuality and my spirituality that set me down the long road that has gotten me to this point in my life. Eventually I came to a skeptics point of view. I basically came to believe, for a short period, that if I couldn't prove it, I couldn't accept it. However, I've just this year come to a more realized faith.
I believe that a human being needs spirituality in some form or other. Being fully grounded in nothing but the material world is just not healthy for the mind.
I do believe in God, but I'm not really sure it's a Christian god. As for the Bible, I've done a whole lot of studying of it, both through church and my independent study (with a lot of reading on the passages directly or indirectly relating to homosxuality). My current opinion of it is that it is a very important book of philosophy. It seems implausible to me to accept it as 100% infallible. Just look at the four Gospels and tell me who Mary went with to the tomb, who (and how many of them) was waiting for her when she got there, and who she told when she left. Virtually all of them disagree. I do think that the very basic idea of Christianity has it right, though. It's beautiful and amazingly sound. Ironically, its when you throw in the Bible that things get shaky.
Something that I'm coming to really agree with though is a blend of Taoism and Christianity. The two ideas fit really well together.
If you can't tell, I'm fascinated by just about all manner of religious systems. I love studying them and trying to understand them. So who knows... my spiritual philosophy could be totally different in a few months. This is as concrete as my beliefs are now, and that's what I've shared.
do i have that old time religion? nope.
i grew up in a 'burb of nyc. supposedly by the sprinkling of the water, i am methodist; but with close friends who were jewish, hindu and moslem, i have a more eclectic belief system. it appears to me that all paths (religions) toward god are random, and sometimes the paths double back on themselves in confusion and excesses.
from my jewish bros, i have learned their rationale, one does good because it is the right thing to do. from my moslem bros, their question: how could i not love and respect you (christains and jews)? you are people of the book and honored by muhammed. from my hindu bros, a cosmology that sounds much like late 20th century astrophysics.
if there is a common thread in these paths, it is man should strive to lead a life that moves toward illumination. essentially, respect life, do no harm, do good, and obey god's laws. the last is the sticking point for many. for me, god's laws always elevate the human condition; any that do not are not god's laws but are the result of man's interpretation (with human biases) of what god would want his people to do.
as man moves toward illumination, his life comes into balance and he walks in beauty.
hey, i am a techie and not too deep...but you asked the question.
jay
i grew up in a 'burb of nyc. supposedly by the sprinkling of the water, i am methodist; but with close friends who were jewish, hindu and moslem, i have a more eclectic belief system. it appears to me that all paths (religions) toward god are random, and sometimes the paths double back on themselves in confusion and excesses.
from my jewish bros, i have learned their rationale, one does good because it is the right thing to do. from my moslem bros, their question: how could i not love and respect you (christains and jews)? you are people of the book and honored by muhammed. from my hindu bros, a cosmology that sounds much like late 20th century astrophysics.
if there is a common thread in these paths, it is man should strive to lead a life that moves toward illumination. essentially, respect life, do no harm, do good, and obey god's laws. the last is the sticking point for many. for me, god's laws always elevate the human condition; any that do not are not god's laws but are the result of man's interpretation (with human biases) of what god would want his people to do.
as man moves toward illumination, his life comes into balance and he walks in beauty.
hey, i am a techie and not too deep...but you asked the question.
jay
SchroederJr: [quote author=jay_too link=board=99;num=1057179521;start=20#34 date=07/07/03 at 14:47:36] from my hindu bros, a cosmology that sounds much like late 20th century astrophysics.
jay[/quote]
Ever notice how certain things just happen to clump together in your life? Well, lately I've been getting a lot of Indian and Hindu culture (read Life of Pi, a teacher loaned me another book about Indian cinema, happened to stumble across Fire on IFC) and it all seems really interesting... I wouldn't mind studying up on it more. I recently read Joseph Campbell's Hero With a Thousand Faces, and he includes a lot of info about Hindu mythology that was captivating.
Just wondering, but is anybody else fascinated by religion in all its forms?
jay[/quote]
Ever notice how certain things just happen to clump together in your life? Well, lately I've been getting a lot of Indian and Hindu culture (read Life of Pi, a teacher loaned me another book about Indian cinema, happened to stumble across Fire on IFC) and it all seems really interesting... I wouldn't mind studying up on it more. I recently read Joseph Campbell's Hero With a Thousand Faces, and he includes a lot of info about Hindu mythology that was captivating.
Just wondering, but is anybody else fascinated by religion in all its forms?
jackinman: I'm religious to the extent that yes I believe in God and yes I do pray in good times as well as in bad times. I was raised a Catholic but I don't really follow all their rules. I don't go to church on Sundays because I got tired of seeing the same sinners go up to the pulpit, receive communion, do a little prayer and then once mass is over go right back out and commit the same sins all over again. So I just ask God for forgiveness in the privacy of my home and I pray in private. Naturally the church sex scandals had alot to do with it. For a long while I was angry at the Catholic church for allowing it to happen and then covering it all up by transferring the priests to another church.
So....I try to live my life the best way I can. I really don't worry it. I know that God has been there for me when I needed him most and he helped me get out of alot of bad situations. So I just try and keep the faith.
Can I get an AAAAAmen!!!
So....I try to live my life the best way I can. I really don't worry it. I know that God has been there for me when I needed him most and he helped me get out of alot of bad situations. So I just try and keep the faith.
Can I get an AAAAAmen!!!
[quote author=SchroederJr link=board=99;num=1057179521;start=20#33 date=07/07/03 at 13:40:53]Dee: You put a lot of weight on the great skeptics and metaphyscists. Both Hume and Socrates were brilliant men. I'm just wondering, though, have you read any Christian philosophers? Like, say, Kant?[/quote]
Of course, Schroed. I had a solid dose of Kant in undergraduate, but we spent more time working through his categorical imperative theory than his theology.
(Phew. In other unrelated news, I'm glad to get back to the forums. My Internet went out yesterday; the customer support people said the frequencies coming from my lines were too strong, according to FCC regulations. I guess it's good and constructive discussion like this that burns up my cable modem.)
Of course, Schroed. I had a solid dose of Kant in undergraduate, but we spent more time working through his categorical imperative theory than his theology.
(Phew. In other unrelated news, I'm glad to get back to the forums. My Internet went out yesterday; the customer support people said the frequencies coming from my lines were too strong, according to FCC regulations. I guess it's good and constructive discussion like this that burns up my cable modem.)
When God sends us here we are fully aware of the horrible things that await some of us. He must worry bout us, just as we'd worry about our own children, as we battle famine, despots, AIDS, typhoons, random violence, adultery, theft, murder...
He could prevent it, yes. I guess sometimes He does when it suits his purpose. But for some reason it is necessary that we be here so that we may experience things that we cannot experience otherwise.
Can you imagine the ranks of angels who must have stood by at the crucifixion of Christ, awaiting a never-shouted order to stop the madness and save Him from an excruciating death? How close did God come to issuing that order as His heart broke for his suffering Son?
Christians know now the wisdom in His not issuing the order at that time.
Someday we'll fully understand the wisdom behind what happens to the rest of us here on Earth, and why He has not yet issued such an order to end the suffering of Mankind.
In the meantime we just hope and cope.
Pecker
He could prevent it, yes. I guess sometimes He does when it suits his purpose. But for some reason it is necessary that we be here so that we may experience things that we cannot experience otherwise.
Can you imagine the ranks of angels who must have stood by at the crucifixion of Christ, awaiting a never-shouted order to stop the madness and save Him from an excruciating death? How close did God come to issuing that order as His heart broke for his suffering Son?
Christians know now the wisdom in His not issuing the order at that time.
Someday we'll fully understand the wisdom behind what happens to the rest of us here on Earth, and why He has not yet issued such an order to end the suffering of Mankind.
In the meantime we just hope and cope.
Pecker
Dag: I believe Religious is a state of well-being.
I was raised Catholic with a very conservative family. I stopped going to church when I was around 19 years old. I told my parents that I believe in God, in my own way. I didn't need a church for that. It was a feeling I got, like intuition.
When I was living in San Francisco, I attended a Zen temple for over a year. I could not believe the change my person went through. From feeling sad, disappointed, grumpy, negative... to a positive, enlighten being. I simply felt good about life, love and who I was/am!
I'm Religious and it feels good! - dag
I was raised Catholic with a very conservative family. I stopped going to church when I was around 19 years old. I told my parents that I believe in God, in my own way. I didn't need a church for that. It was a feeling I got, like intuition.
When I was living in San Francisco, I attended a Zen temple for over a year. I could not believe the change my person went through. From feeling sad, disappointed, grumpy, negative... to a positive, enlighten being. I simply felt good about life, love and who I was/am!
I'm Religious and it feels good! - dag
TripodMillenium: Hello all - I see that the religious content of this place seems to be VERY christian (the only differences I saw were athiest, agnostic, and God-believeing agnostic), so I guess I will be the first to show a big difference... :-/
I am Pagan (I have come from a Jewish family, though)
I do not specifically follow any specific Pagan path... I have forged my own... My Paganism is nature-based with a little sampling of many paths... (which fits me just fine as, as you can see in my post in the bisexuality thread, I do not pick-and-choose I am a lover of life and existance - and a knower of the fact that no belief out there is ABSOLUTE truth... So I choose to pursue truth as well as I can by following my heart in what I believe - whether or not parts may be NeoPagan, parts Druidic, and parts even rather resembling Budhism) I believe that the divine is Mother Nature - whom i see as basically the whole of existance as ONE. Which serves to only support me being loving and VERY tolerant.
I do not think any other religions are wrong, per se, but simply that they are most likely different views on the same universal truth that is beyond the total grasp of anyone alive. BTW, for you Christian folk, know this - I think Jesus rules ( ;D) - he was one of the best souls ever to grace this earth... I just don't think he was specifically as supernaturally parented as you do... But, if you look at it, that doesn't cheapen his image one bit.
I follow what I feel and know in my heart to be true, and because of that I am happier, better, and more loving for it (because I am not stifled this way) - and, let me tell you, about the choice I made to convert to Paganism - I haven't been more sure of something in my entire life! THAT is the only place where I could ever dissagree with someone on their religion - I feel that if you are not sure, mind, body, and soul, about the religion you follow, then you have made the wrong choice....
For all of you I also have this to say, if your children or relatives should choose a religion different than yours - let them... It is their choice what to believe and no one's right but their own to choose their religion. (If I sound preachy I am sorry, but I was reminded by another member's post concerning what his mother said of this and of the struggle I had with my father - so what I am saying is just a pleading petition to those of you who will have children in the future [or have children or relatives now who question it all] to leave it up to the mind that believes.... After all - they will believe what they will anyways... Why not make it easier on everyone and let their beliefs be followed freely?)
To lighten things up a bit:
Another reason I like my religion is because I have 8 evenly-spaced holidays each year.... and they are always on the same dates!!! They're much easier to remember! (the only problem is their names are in an old Druid tongue - so they are a little hard to remember the names of.... [like Lughnassadh and Imbolc])
Well, there's what I have to say.... -----> and if anyone is thinking "17, bisexual, AND Pagan - he must be one of those rebel-against-everything teenagers going through a phase..." then I have to say to you: "It may seem odd, strange, or even one-in-a-million for such a combination in truth - but just think of how many 1-in-1,000,000 is in a population over 6 billion! I just ended up as this unlikely combination, and I'm serious about it"..................................................... ;D............
Trying to be as serious as always................. but you see how my serious face looks after a couple of minutes [ ;D].........
TripodMillenium
I am Pagan (I have come from a Jewish family, though)
I do not specifically follow any specific Pagan path... I have forged my own... My Paganism is nature-based with a little sampling of many paths... (which fits me just fine as, as you can see in my post in the bisexuality thread, I do not pick-and-choose I am a lover of life and existance - and a knower of the fact that no belief out there is ABSOLUTE truth... So I choose to pursue truth as well as I can by following my heart in what I believe - whether or not parts may be NeoPagan, parts Druidic, and parts even rather resembling Budhism) I believe that the divine is Mother Nature - whom i see as basically the whole of existance as ONE. Which serves to only support me being loving and VERY tolerant.
I do not think any other religions are wrong, per se, but simply that they are most likely different views on the same universal truth that is beyond the total grasp of anyone alive. BTW, for you Christian folk, know this - I think Jesus rules ( ;D
) - he was one of the best souls ever to grace this earth... I just don't think he was specifically as supernaturally parented as you do... But, if you look at it, that doesn't cheapen his image one bit. I follow what I feel and know in my heart to be true, and because of that I am happier, better, and more loving for it (because I am not stifled this way) - and, let me tell you, about the choice I made to convert to Paganism - I haven't been more sure of something in my entire life! THAT is the only place where I could ever dissagree with someone on their religion - I feel that if you are not sure, mind, body, and soul, about the religion you follow, then you have made the wrong choice....
For all of you I also have this to say, if your children or relatives should choose a religion different than yours - let them... It is their choice what to believe and no one's right but their own to choose their religion. (If I sound preachy I am sorry, but I was reminded by another member's post concerning what his mother said of this and of the struggle I had with my father - so what I am saying is just a pleading petition to those of you who will have children in the future [or have children or relatives now who question it all] to leave it up to the mind that believes.... After all - they will believe what they will anyways... Why not make it easier on everyone and let their beliefs be followed freely?)
To lighten things up a bit:
Another reason I like my religion is because I have 8 evenly-spaced holidays each year.... and they are always on the same dates!!! They're much easier to remember!
(the only problem is their names are in an old Druid tongue - so they are a little hard to remember the names of.... [like Lughnassadh and Imbolc])Well, there's what I have to say.... -----> and if anyone is thinking "17, bisexual, AND Pagan - he must be one of those rebel-against-everything teenagers going through a phase..." then I have to say to you: "It may seem odd, strange, or even one-in-a-million for such a combination in truth - but just think of how many 1-in-1,000,000 is in a population over 6 billion! I just ended up as this unlikely combination, and I'm serious about it"
..................................................... ;D............ Trying to be as serious as always................. but you see how my serious face looks after a couple of minutes [ ;D].........
TripodMillenium
Javierdude22: [quote author=TripodMillenium link=board=99;num=1057179521;start=40#40 date=07/09/03 at 03:25:58]I feel that if you are not sure, mind, body, and soul, about the religion you follow, then you have made the wrong choice....
[/quote]
The posts here are very...whats the word....insighful, i have to say...
It's a difficult subject...for me anyways. I do have some remarks on past posts, but collecting my thoughts on this one aint the easiest thing in the world, probably because were not dealing with political stuff, facts and figures, or actual events. So i'm just gonna think out loud and hope i'll make my point along the way. If not...then i'm enrolling for metaphysical classes next semester, and...*I'll be back*.
I have a feeling theres different aggregations on which certain religions profile themselves. Theres religions that act as the framework and everything in it, and religion's that only act and deal with everything in it, but not really with the framework. I'll elaborate on this, cause i'm reading this back and scratching my head at the same time, so that can't be good :-/
For Christianity, God and his testaments is the framework, everything was created by God, we live in His world. I feel that the Matrix analogy works here. He created our Matrix so to speak. We move around in what He created, and the path we travel should be within the laws of that Matrix (the ten commandments for kicks sake). Religions like Hindu-ism, Islam and Judaism work with the same framework. They explain by whom the Matrix was created (if its true or not doesnt matter yet) and also deal with everything that happens, or should happen, within the sequence of events that make up earths history and future.
Then faiths like Paganism, or other animist religions, and also Buddhism (i'm not réally familiar with it, so forgive me if i jump to conclusions). I have a problem (in the way that that religion doesnt work for me) with the way they deal with things, or their lack of. A lotta people, when talking about Christianity, ask questions like: why would God do this, why doesnt He prevent that? An easy question, since we have Someone to pinpoint. The scape goat. But the religions i just mentioned, i have never heard of ways they explain current events, other than: some people are evil, therefore we have war. Death: people go back to nature, where they came from, which in itself is a solid explanation, but then why did nature make it hurt so much when someone dies? God gets the scape goat role for this, but where does Paganism put the blame, if it even does.
I still dont have a point...i'm working on it.
Ok, im drawing a blank now....i'll recap, and maybe i'll elaborate later, or maybe someone can explain better what i mean, if you got my drift in the first place.
Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Judaism, have Gods to pinpoint, Gods to blame for life's events. Which makes it an easy scape goat. Paganism, animist beliefs, Buddhism, they don't explain at all, but let it rest where it is. The fisrt group has a firm distinction for Good and evil, the others don't seem to really deal with evil in the firs place. God gets'the blame for all the evil that takes place in this world, when it is evil itsself causing it. Christianity gave evil a name, the devil, lucifer, satan, whatever. He has the same powers as God, except for the rule over life or death. But where does evil come from in Pagan etc. beliefs, who's to blame for everything that sucks in this world, if Nature is a religion in itself, why are we killing it, why is it losing the battle? (sorry, i'm on a roll)
I think my point is stepping outta the shadows. The Matrix thing: Christianity made the Matrix, and the rules that govern it. We don't understand that Matrix yet, but doesnt mean it is untrue (that at least is what Christaisn believe). I have a feeling thet Paganism etc, don't have a framework, Matrix, they just seem to deal with whats there (but this remark could be my lack of knowledge on those religions).
Hm...Metaphysics 672....no wait...i'll start with 101
Laterz
[/quote]
The posts here are very...whats the word....insighful, i have to say...
It's a difficult subject...for me anyways. I do have some remarks on past posts, but collecting my thoughts on this one aint the easiest thing in the world, probably because were not dealing with political stuff, facts and figures, or actual events. So i'm just gonna think out loud and hope i'll make my point along the way. If not...then i'm enrolling for metaphysical classes next semester, and...*I'll be back*.
I have a feeling theres different aggregations on which certain religions profile themselves. Theres religions that act as the framework and everything in it, and religion's that only act and deal with everything in it, but not really with the framework. I'll elaborate on this, cause i'm reading this back and scratching my head at the same time, so that can't be good :-/
For Christianity, God and his testaments is the framework, everything was created by God, we live in His world. I feel that the Matrix analogy works here. He created our Matrix so to speak. We move around in what He created, and the path we travel should be within the laws of that Matrix (the ten commandments for kicks sake). Religions like Hindu-ism, Islam and Judaism work with the same framework. They explain by whom the Matrix was created (if its true or not doesnt matter yet) and also deal with everything that happens, or should happen, within the sequence of events that make up earths history and future.
Then faiths like Paganism, or other animist religions, and also Buddhism (i'm not réally familiar with it, so forgive me if i jump to conclusions). I have a problem (in the way that that religion doesnt work for me) with the way they deal with things, or their lack of. A lotta people, when talking about Christianity, ask questions like: why would God do this, why doesnt He prevent that? An easy question, since we have Someone to pinpoint. The scape goat. But the religions i just mentioned, i have never heard of ways they explain current events, other than: some people are evil, therefore we have war. Death: people go back to nature, where they came from, which in itself is a solid explanation, but then why did nature make it hurt so much when someone dies? God gets the scape goat role for this, but where does Paganism put the blame, if it even does.
I still dont have a point...i'm working on it.
Ok, im drawing a blank now....i'll recap, and maybe i'll elaborate later, or maybe someone can explain better what i mean, if you got my drift in the first place.
Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Judaism, have Gods to pinpoint, Gods to blame for life's events. Which makes it an easy scape goat. Paganism, animist beliefs, Buddhism, they don't explain at all, but let it rest where it is. The fisrt group has a firm distinction for Good and evil, the others don't seem to really deal with evil in the firs place. God gets'the blame for all the evil that takes place in this world, when it is evil itsself causing it. Christianity gave evil a name, the devil, lucifer, satan, whatever. He has the same powers as God, except for the rule over life or death. But where does evil come from in Pagan etc. beliefs, who's to blame for everything that sucks in this world, if Nature is a religion in itself, why are we killing it, why is it losing the battle? (sorry, i'm on a roll)
I think my point is stepping outta the shadows. The Matrix thing: Christianity made the Matrix, and the rules that govern it. We don't understand that Matrix yet, but doesnt mean it is untrue (that at least is what Christaisn believe). I have a feeling thet Paganism etc, don't have a framework, Matrix, they just seem to deal with whats there (but this remark could be my lack of knowledge on those religions).
Hm...Metaphysics 672....no wait...i'll start with 101
Laterz
Javierdude22: dammit...i forgot to do something with your qoute Tripod. Ok, here goes. I'm not sure if something is automatically wrong if you're not sure about it. Theres so many things i'm not sure about, my life would be a big fat lieif it were all wrong. I think that in every choice you make theres doubt, dillemma, and wonder. With small choices, and big ones.
Should i take strawberry ice cream, or banana. I'll take strawberry. While licking you wonder if the banana thing wouldn't have been nicer.
Faith of course works different. Our commitment to our religion is being compromised by the things we have to deal with, life's events. You won't believe how fast éverything around you seems doubtfull when you looked death in the eye, or when you lost a loved one. Even people with the seemingly strongest committment will then just as likely cave, or re-iterate their stand on what they believe in. Trust me on that one. The religion that held out longest, and what obviously was what you felt strongest about, will be the belief you hold the moment you step out of this world, dramatic as that may sound. And that may change even at that very moment.
I digress. So my point is, everybody has doubt, life is made up of doubt, doubt if youre marriage is working, doubt if you should atken that job, doubt if smashing your computer was a good idea (its not). Later in life, you'll know, if at that point it was a good, or bad decision, a good, or bad thing you believed in. What if youre mariagge was the one thing that kept you standing later in life, glad you didnt break it off.
laterz
Should i take strawberry ice cream, or banana. I'll take strawberry. While licking you wonder if the banana thing wouldn't have been nicer.
Faith of course works different. Our commitment to our religion is being compromised by the things we have to deal with, life's events. You won't believe how fast éverything around you seems doubtfull when you looked death in the eye, or when you lost a loved one. Even people with the seemingly strongest committment will then just as likely cave, or re-iterate their stand on what they believe in. Trust me on that one. The religion that held out longest, and what obviously was what you felt strongest about, will be the belief you hold the moment you step out of this world, dramatic as that may sound. And that may change even at that very moment.
I digress. So my point is, everybody has doubt, life is made up of doubt, doubt if youre marriage is working, doubt if you should atken that job, doubt if smashing your computer was a good idea (its not). Later in life, you'll know, if at that point it was a good, or bad decision, a good, or bad thing you believed in. What if youre mariagge was the one thing that kept you standing later in life, glad you didnt break it off.
laterz
SchroederJr: [quote author=TripodMillenium link=board=99;num=1057179521;start=40#40 date=07/09/03 at 03:25:58]I do not specifically follow any specific Pagan path... I have forged my own...
I feel that if you are not sure, mind, body, and soul, about the religion you follow, then you have made the wrong choice....
[/quote]
I think its wonderful that you've forged your own path, but a lot of us (or at least I am) are in the process of forging our own path. The other day I was discussing with a friend about how hard it is for me to accept that no, I don't fully believe everything I've been raised to believe. Coming to terms with that has been something that's as hard coming to terms with my sexuality. I still have trouble saying I'm not a Christian, simply because there's so much of me that still is. He was telling me about how he learned to accept that in himself, and he said that some people are just wanderers. Its not that they're unloyal, unsure, a traitor, backslidden, whatever your word of choice is. It just means that they aren't fully satisfied with one thing and they have to look around to make sure that this is what they want. I don't want to be sixty and then realize that I've spent my entire life going down the wrong path spiritually. Thats why I was so scared to just jump in Christianity head-first and never give it a second though. I need to know my options, and since there are so many, I imagine I'll end up "forging my own path" with a combination of whatever I explore, taking and learning from everything I experience and building that into something that works for me, even if that involves some instability. Who knows, though. I could end up an unwavering Christian by next year. That's both really scary and amazingly exhilarating.
Javi - Interesting analogy... The Matrix description works very well with Buddhism. Buddhism is all about transcending the restraints of this world and breaking free so you can come back and lead others as close to the same point as possible. I don't know about earth-based religions, as most of those seem very centered on this world and its power, not of overcoming it. Correct me if I'm wrong, though, Tripod.
As for Christianity, it depends wholly on which sect you're talking about, but doesn't quite encompass all of it. In fact there is one sect, called Gnosticism (not pre-Christian, though, for those who know what I mean) that believes that time stopped right around the crucifixion and ever since then this "time" we've been experiencing is Satan pulling the wool over our eyes so we'll meander around destroying ourselves, and Jesus can't come back until we break free from the illusion of time that we now live in.
But at the same time, you have the Unitarian Universalists, the Christian Humanists... sects that are based entirely upon embracing the opportunities this world gives. Maybe I'm misconstruing it, but I don't think the analogy works quite as a catch-all for Christianity. I don't know enough about the other God-centric religions you mentioned.
Your points about how God-centric religions provide a scapegoat, though... wow! I'd never thought about it like that. Religion combines with an especially high fear of taking any blame doesn't result in a good thing, I guess, since most of those religions place the blame of mistake on humans, so they distract themselves with asking God why God allows it when the problem is that they do it in the first place. (Erg... Problem of philosophy, discussing a group of individuals as a whole doesn't always work well...).
Oh, and one of the beautiful pitfalls of philosophy... it usually leads you to more questions. So taking a metaphysics course may add more colors to your palette, but you're still the one in charge of painting the picture.
I'm loving this discussion, keep 'em coming!
I feel that if you are not sure, mind, body, and soul, about the religion you follow, then you have made the wrong choice....
[/quote]
I think its wonderful that you've forged your own path, but a lot of us (or at least I am) are in the process of forging our own path. The other day I was discussing with a friend about how hard it is for me to accept that no, I don't fully believe everything I've been raised to believe. Coming to terms with that has been something that's as hard coming to terms with my sexuality. I still have trouble saying I'm not a Christian, simply because there's so much of me that still is. He was telling me about how he learned to accept that in himself, and he said that some people are just wanderers. Its not that they're unloyal, unsure, a traitor, backslidden, whatever your word of choice is. It just means that they aren't fully satisfied with one thing and they have to look around to make sure that this is what they want. I don't want to be sixty and then realize that I've spent my entire life going down the wrong path spiritually. Thats why I was so scared to just jump in Christianity head-first and never give it a second though. I need to know my options, and since there are so many, I imagine I'll end up "forging my own path" with a combination of whatever I explore, taking and learning from everything I experience and building that into something that works for me, even if that involves some instability. Who knows, though. I could end up an unwavering Christian by next year. That's both really scary and amazingly exhilarating.
Javi - Interesting analogy... The Matrix description works very well with Buddhism. Buddhism is all about transcending the restraints of this world and breaking free so you can come back and lead others as close to the same point as possible. I don't know about earth-based religions, as most of those seem very centered on this world and its power, not of overcoming it. Correct me if I'm wrong, though, Tripod.
As for Christianity, it depends wholly on which sect you're talking about, but doesn't quite encompass all of it. In fact there is one sect, called Gnosticism (not pre-Christian, though, for those who know what I mean) that believes that time stopped right around the crucifixion and ever since then this "time" we've been experiencing is Satan pulling the wool over our eyes so we'll meander around destroying ourselves, and Jesus can't come back until we break free from the illusion of time that we now live in.
But at the same time, you have the Unitarian Universalists, the Christian Humanists... sects that are based entirely upon embracing the opportunities this world gives. Maybe I'm misconstruing it, but I don't think the analogy works quite as a catch-all for Christianity. I don't know enough about the other God-centric religions you mentioned.
Your points about how God-centric religions provide a scapegoat, though... wow! I'd never thought about it like that. Religion combines with an especially high fear of taking any blame doesn't result in a good thing, I guess, since most of those religions place the blame of mistake on humans, so they distract themselves with asking God why God allows it when the problem is that they do it in the first place. (Erg... Problem of philosophy, discussing a group of individuals as a whole doesn't always work well...).
Oh, and one of the beautiful pitfalls of philosophy... it usually leads you to more questions. So taking a metaphysics course may add more colors to your palette, but you're still the one in charge of painting the picture.
I'm loving this discussion, keep 'em coming!
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