Ashkenazi Jews and intelligence

D_Gunther Snotpole

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The ability to test well isn't an inherited genetic quality, Rubes, any more than being able to balance a checkbook or keep a clean house.

IQ measures one's ability to take the test in question, that's all.

Well, I think a brilliant person, hapless at taking tests, will do better than an average person, hapless at taking tests.
And a sophisticated test taker who's brilliant will do better than a sophisticated test taker who's average.
So: yes and no, Bbucko.

I don't think it's PC to remind everyone that millions of lives were lost in the 1940s because some people had quaint ideas about genetic superiority.

Bingo, of course.
 

Wyldgusechaz

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Black people are smart as whips... they can do anything that they want to do.

And you are also right about Jewish people, but you don't have to talk about the "European" Jews, all Jews are more or less brilliant people. They have a surefire way of imparting wisdom from generation to generation which has payed off in a really big way.

Modern life would be nothing without Jews and Blacks, they have enhanced our way of life immeasurably. American culture is pretty much Jewish and Black culture.

And what way is that? Link?
 

Wyldgusechaz

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Funny enough Wyld you aren't smart enough to comment on how intelligent jews or blacks are. At best you're a reporter of test results and hardly an interpreter of them.

There is a certain braggadocio that just plainly disqualifies your from being anything more than simply hot air. You are actually Salieri to your self perception as Mozart. Talented but incomplete.

Differences in races/ethnicities regarding IQ are more nurture than nature orientated. And Saletan is a dick who quotes racist literature igorantly. Fucking loser wannabe scientist ignoramus.

And Saletan it probably into small penis humiliation and being cuckold while he watches.

First of I have no idea what you are talking about in the first paragraph. Its been interpreted by scholars for you, not me.

And the bolded fact? Prove it.
 

midlifebear

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Wyldguzechaz: You really do have far too much time available for doing absolutely nothing. Has it occurred to you that you'd have a better quality of life if you spent some of your energy helping others?

Since I last posted on another thread about the possibility that you might consider becoming something useful, like an adult literacy volunteer, I've spent the last three hours tutoring Argentine students who are learning English -- for free.

What is keeping you from reaching out to help people less fortunate than you and making new friends?
 

B_spiker067

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Wyldguzechaz: You really do have far too much time available for doing absolutely nothing. Has it occurred to you that you'd have a better quality of life if you spent some of your energy helping others?

Since I last posted on another thread about the possibility that you might consider becoming something useful, like an adult literacy volunteer, I've spent the last three hours tutoring Argentine students who are learning English -- for free.

What is keeping you from reaching out to help people less fortunate than you and making new friends?

OH, God. You have no idea how Wyld is going to start waxing eloquent on him doing this that and the other. Accomplishing this and inventing that.

All as precursor to his insight on some subject.... bleaach.
 

Wyldgusechaz

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Wyldguzechaz: You really do have far too much time available for doing absolutely nothing. Has it occurred to you that you'd have a better quality of life if you spent some of your energy helping others?

Since I last posted on another thread about the possibility that you might consider becoming something useful, like an adult literacy volunteer, I've spent the last three hours tutoring Argentine students who are learning English -- for free.

What is keeping you from reaching out to help people less fortunate than you and making new friends?

Good for you. Without going into too much detail, I sponsor 10 kids education in Uganda at $50/month a child. Do the math, not free. I volunteer to provide care for homeless, AIDs shelters, and for kids who have lost a sibling/parent/loved one.

I used to coach inner city kids sports teams. Doing my taxes this week my charity extends to the tens of thousands of dollars. One day a year i provide free services to anyone who requests it. About $5-7000 bucks worth.

Sounds like we both do what we can.

Spiker I love when guys give me an opening, using your avatar, he set it up and I get to spike it. :)

Gosh this is fun.
 

B_spiker067

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First of I have no idea what you are talking about in the first paragraph. Its been interpreted by scholars for you, not me.

And the bolded fact? Prove it.

Dude, read the threads at Slate. Saletan had is ass handed to him and he made a better case than you could.

As far as expert interpretation goes? Read the relevant threads on Slate.
 

Wyldgusechaz

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Dude, read the threads at Slate. Saletan had is ass handed to him and he made a better case than you could.

As far as expert interpretation goes? Read the relevant threads on Slate.

I have no idea what you are talking about. Link? Saletan was just some window dressing. The meat is from the university guys and I can't find the refutation you are referencing to their research.
 

Guy-jin

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Oh look, another "ethnic superiority" thread by Wyldgusechaz.

How original.

Get ready for such classics as "Africa will never be at peace because Africans are too stupid," "Europeans are genetically superior to Africans", "[Pulitzer Prize Winner, Recipient of the Phi Beta Kappa Science Award and the National Medal of Science, and professor of geography and physiology] Dr. Jared Diamond is a moron," and "I'm right because I send money to a charity that helps kids in Africa."

What I don't get is why some of you respond to this thread like you don't know what's coming.

The idea that human "intelligence" is dictated more by genetics than it is by upbringing, society and culture is absolutely unfounded and just plain stupid.
 

Wyldgusechaz

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Oh look, another "ethnic superiority" thread by Wyldgusechaz.

How original.

Get ready for such classics as "Africa will never be at peace because Africans are too stupid," "Europeans are genetically superior to Africans", "[Pulitzer Prize Winner, Recipient of the Phi Beta Kappa Science Award and the National Medal of Science, and professor of geography and physiology] Dr. Jared Diamond is a moron," and "I'm right because I send money to a charity that helps kids in Africa."

What I don't get is why some of you respond to this thread like you don't know what's coming.

The idea that human "intelligence" is dictated more by genetics than it is by upbringing, society and culture is absolutely unfounded and just plain stupid.

Get real. Of all the traits that make up man we are going to exclude intelligence as genetic? What intellectual dishonesty. People breed dogs for intelligence. Why would dog intelligence be genetically controlled and human intelligence not? You saying you can't breed people for intelligence? Baloney.

You are so PC and completely full of shit. Give me a parameter that would take neurons and synapses and neuro transmitters and levels of myelin and gray matter and NOT make it genetically controlled. Why would everything else in the biologic world be controlled by genes and not intelligence? You are preposterous.
 

pym

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I'm just guessin' here.....it must be my Ashkenazi jewish background via Lithuanian descent that gives me a 'Special' insight into what a major ASS-HOLE this Wylde guy has shown himself to be. Or maybe it's clear to all? Oh.....i'm sure he'll demand a "LINK"{like anyone actually owes him a fucking thing}. SO here ya go.
http://www.assfistinganalfisting.com/gaping-anal-holes/asshole_gaping.jpg

http://www.kongshoej.dk/fun/Asshole art.jpg

http://udoj.files.wordpress.com/2008/01/asshole-posters.jpg
 

Wyldgusechaz

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I'm just guessin' here.....it must be my Ashkenazi jewish background via Lithuanian descent that gives me a 'Special' insight into what a major ASS-HOLE this Wylde guy has shown himself to be. Or maybe it's clear to all? Oh.....i'm sure he'll demand a "LINK"{like anyone actually owes him a fucking thing}. SO here ya go.
http://www.assfistinganalfisting.com/gaping-anal-holes/asshole_gaping.jpg

http://www.kongshoej.dk/fun/Asshole art.jpg

http://udoj.files.wordpress.com/2008/01/asshole-posters.jpg

No refutation so that amounts to a total and unconditional surrender. I win. Thanks for playing.
 

Bbucko

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I don't think it's PC to remind everyone that millions of lives were lost in the 1940s because some people had quaint ideas about genetic superiority.

Bingo, of course.

No refutation so that amounts to a total and unconditional surrender. I win. Thanks for playing.
 

B_spiker067

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Wyld,

The threads on Slate pertaining to the article you linked to are more than adequate to debunk any thoughts you have on this subject. They even deal with your breeding concept. Clue: Ash jews were not bred by their German overlords like kennel dogs. Nor do Ash jews have the reproductive life span of dogs.

Cultural values and opportunity best explain IQ differences. Plus, exactly what IQ effectively measures is a whole debate unto itself.

You hardly ever win anything, ever.
 
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I think you have to know the history of Jews in Europe to understand just why they are disproportionately represented in intellectualism. You also have to know something about Judaism.

Theologically, Judaism believes God to be in the details. The more you learn, the more you come to understand God. I tend to think Christianity and Islam tend to not want to question the nature of God so much as Judaism does. When you excel in knowledge, God becomes closer as you're examining the nature of God no matter what the intellectual pursuit. Judaism has an intense emphasis on knowing Talmud and Torah. Talmud is derived from Torah; it's a running commentary by Torah scholars. Imagine there not only to be the Bible, but an accompanying annotated text of notes from the great Biblical scholars sharing their insights. Just by that tradition alone, there's a sense that each person can approach and understand God best through study and debate. It's a very personal approach compared to Christianity where most sects believe intercession between church and God is necessary. Priests and ministers must be intermediaries. Judaism has nothing like that. Rabbis aren't required to act as intermediaries and the opinion of any rabbi is open to question and debate.

Though it's overhyped of late, true scholars of Kabbalah take this most to heart. They pour over, have even memorized Talmud and Torah, to discover new clues to the nature of God. If Christians place God on a throne way up in the sky requiring a telescope to be seen, the Jews have God under a microscope.

This theological difference, I think, helps increase the sense among many Jews that learning is the most noble of pursuits. If you're going to learn something, learn it inside-out because unless you do, then you're not really living life. To know something means to investigate, research, gather opinions, then draw a conclusion. Certainly that's true for any learned person, but for Jews it's almost second nature because such study is so emphasized on a religious level.

The other factor, history, makes a great deal of sense. Jewish persecution is no myth and it has gone on since the days of Egypt, but where we see European Jews really excel since the fall of Rome, is in finance. Once Rome became Christian and, following that, the collapse of Roman civilization, Jews had one role that could not be occupied by gentiles and that's as a financier. Christianity, from the beginning, had prohibitions against usury. Now we consider usury to be the charging of exhorbitant interest rates, but back then it meant charging any interest at all. To be loaned money was impossible as nobody could loan it to you unless they did so as a favor. As you can imagine, that did nothing for the banking business. The Jews however, had no such prohibitions. Throughout Europe Jews were grudgingly tolerated by various rulers because only the Jews could loan money when, let's say, taxes weren't quite so forthcoming or the Prince of Whereeverandall was a little too frivolous on his coronation. You needed money, you went to the Jews. If the Jews in a place were lucky, then the Prince paid them back with interest. If they were not so lucky then the Prince would sponsor some progrom and kill or kick them out of the realm to avoid paying them back. Consider for a moment though, all things that charging interest applies. It's the foundation of banking, entreupreneurship, and modern commerce. All these areas were confined by Christian law, to the Jews.

Now if you were a money changer, desperately needed in medieval Europe when every tinpot dukedom and marquesate had their own currency, or a money lender or a financier, you had to learn how to manage accounting books, the principles of commerce, mathematics, the economic quality of goods and services, and cagey enough not to charge so much as to get your little ghetto exiled or worse. This required an extraordinary amount of learning quite foreign in countries where 95% of the population was illiterate. The life of a European Jew was precarious and uncertain. Wealth had to be portable and tradable, hence the (not unfair) hoarding of gold, silver, and jewels by Jews. Owning land, the measure of wealth until the industrial revolution, was pointless because at any point you could be driven out of town in the great majority of places you lived or the land could be confiscated. It was much safer to bury boxes of precious metals or sew jewels into clothing or placed under false floors in oxcarts. Those were valuable things you could trade anywhere at any time.

Naturally, not all Jews in a community were involved in finance, but many were. Others became merchants, knowing that to sell their goods to anyone other than other Jews, they had to offer good prices and superior quality. Merchandise was fungible, could be transported and traded. There was little use to being a tradesman as no one would hire you save other Jews. That's not to say they didn't exist. Jewish communities lived in ghettos which were essentially microcosms of the larger community around them and so some tradespeople were necessary, but they weren't the focus of commerce.

This is in stark contrast to the rest of medieval Europe when the great majority of people were vassals in a manor. You apprenticed, journeyed, and then became a master craftsman. Either you labored or you made stuff. That was all you did. Only your lords and ladies had the education (sometimes little of that) to manage everything. Education served no great purpose for most people because it didn't enhance their income. If you were a beet grower or a baker then that's what you did. Social mobility was extremely difficult to come by even in small increments.

Jews had no such problem. They would always be at the bottom of the gentile social world and so had no problem working at all levels of the system because they were outside the system. Jews had access to everyone from the lowliest tanner (and tanners were as low as you could get) to the king himself to the abbots and priests to bishops and cardinals... even the pope.

When I add this all up, I can't help but see how Jews have excelled in the arts and sciences. There's a tremendous tradition of learning, of business, of having to be prepared, of having to work harder than others to achieve, and of desiring to learn everything they can about a subject so as not to be caught unawares. Adversity makes people tough, practical, and pragmatic and I don't think any group short of maybe the gypsies (who the Germans imprisoned and exterminated too) has suffered so much in Europe.
 

lipollo

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Jason just to back up your point I would like to make a parellel between Ashkenazi Jews and Greeks (both Ancient and Byzantine/Ottoman Empire) because it substantially backs up both of yours points on the importance of religious udnerstanding and roles 'outside' society.

Obviously I dont need to state the 'intelligence' of the Ancient Greeks so I will just get to the point which is that a crucial pillar in the development of philosophy and also machines etc was the quest to understand the higher beings (i say that as Plato in his philosophsing actually departed from the pantheon of gods to a single god) and to gain more grace with this/these beings by excelling by various intellectual means.

Moreover the Greeks in the Byzantine/Ottoman Empire are testament to the standard of the Jews being 'outside' the European system much the same way as the Christian Greeks (and Armenians) were outside the Islamic society meaning that all high level jobs in architecture, finance, town planning, road building etc were all dominated by Christians.

And to add to this point the Byzantine Greeks too valued knowledge as leading to a greater understanding with god (although only furthering their knowledge in fields which would strengthen rather then break this bond) and it is no coincidence that the renaissance was sparked with the exodus of greek monks from the now Ottoman Empire into Italy. And it is no coincidence that the exodus of Christian Greeks and Armenians from the Ottoman Empire/Turkey saw the industrialisation process in turkey delay for over 60 years.
 

Guy-jin

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Get real. Of all the traits that make up man we are going to exclude intelligence as genetic? What intellectual dishonesty. People breed dogs for intelligence. Why would dog intelligence be genetically controlled and human intelligence not? You saying you can't breed people for intelligence? Baloney.

You are so PC and completely full of shit. Give me a parameter that would take neurons and synapses and neuro transmitters and levels of myelin and gray matter and NOT make it genetically controlled. Why would everything else in the biologic world be controlled by genes and not intelligence? You are preposterous.

Give me some evidence that Jews have different levels or structures of neurons, synapses, neurotransmitters, myelin and gray matter. Give me some evidence that Africans do. Oh, you don't have any. Color me "preposterous".

It's not about being PC.

It's about me being a genetic scientist in real life and being intolerant of your asinine threads where you act like you have any clue what you're talking about when you don't.

You want un-PC? You're a goddamn racist moron and your threads are flaming piles of racist shit that have no basis in reality. There you go.

Jason_els, you are far too kind to hold this asshole's hand through the whole thing, especially with full knowledge that he doesn't give two craps about the truth and that he just posted this to further some ridiculous racist agend he's had on this forum for as long as I can remember.

Here's to hoping other people read your post and understand it, though.
 

lipollo

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Guy-jin maybie I am naiive because I dont really post or read much but you seem to be the only person who has made reference to "Blacks" being dumb on this thread.

Actually I agree with you 100% that Jews as a whole have more X or Y in their body than other races per se but I think you must agree that whilst it is true that Black people are not dumber then Jews or whites whatever it must be acknowledged at the very least that for many reasons (with motives stemming from colonialism to the Arab Slave Trade) Africa as a collective has not been conducive to westernised intellectual constructs meaning that "Black" people per se not that they are 'dumber' but they have no tools necessary to actually explore science, maths etc.

That is something which I think has to be raised.

It is certainly wrong to suggest that Jews are "superior" in intelligence to whoever due to genetics but to suggest that there is an equal balance when so many awards are skewed in Ashkenazi Jews favour does show that at the very least their society and culture is much more conducive to 'Western' intelligence (and i stress that point) then Africans, Anglo-Saxons and yes Africans (although the extent to which it is their fault for being in such a predicament is certainly not their fault).
 

tripod

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... What intellectual dishonesty. People breed dogs for intelligence. Why would dog intelligence be genetically controlled and human intelligence not?

Are you insane? They don't breed dogs for intelligence! Scientists don't even know what dog intelligence really is! lol! Wolves have big ol' doggie brains and the more you breed a domesticated dog, the more their brain shrinks. Todays dogs brains are shrinking due to excessive breeding and a poor diet that is lacking in high quality animal protein. You are hilarious with your armchair eugenic theories straight out of the nineteenth century.

You are so PC and completely full of shit. Give me a parameter that would take neurons and synapses and neuro transmitters and levels of myelin and gray matter and NOT make it genetically controlled. Why would everything else in the biologic world be controlled by genes and not intelligence? You are preposterous.

Actually brain development has more to due with environmental factors than genetic ones... our diet has more to do with brain development. Mankind's brain is so large because we eat animal protein... the brains of our cavemen ancestors were much smaller because they didn't have as much access to high quality animal protein.

Poor people eat a horrible diet that is lacking in the essential nutrients to spur proper optimum growth and their children grow up with less cerebral capacity than their more wealthy peers. Wealthy people can give their children all of the nutrients that they need and their offspring achieve proper brain growth. Lower income children do poorly on standardized tests and rich kids ace them... it's not about genetics, it's about environmental factors.

Of course genes do play a role in the essence that prolonged poor or good nutrition that spans generations can affect the DNA itself. The intelligence or lack of didn't start with the genes, it started with the environment.

Yes, European people have seemingly dominated a good portion of the globe and it would make one question as to how that would be.

Read Guns, Germs and Steel if you are curious how the Europeans did it. All of the factors are environmental.