Ashkenazi Jews and intelligence

JustAsking

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I have to go with Jason on this. The kind of intelligence we are talking about here is so much more influenced by culture and behavior than it is by genetics. There are plenty of examples of that where measurements can more easily be made.

For example, there are a lot of tests that can show that men have superior spatial reasoning skills than women. However, there are also plenty of studies that show that the difference between men and women in this area can be readily overcome by simple spatial reasoning training. So although one could draw all kinds of conclusions about why there would be a difference historically, it is much easier to make a case for attributing it to the different activities that boys and girls participate in as they are growing up.

The moral of those studies is that the effectiveness of any given human mental capability is strongly influenced by outside forces, such as culture, training, and practice. And this is to a degree that far overshadows what could be attributed to genetic differences is a large group.

...Yes, European people have seemingly dominated a good portion of the globe and it would make one question as to how that would be.

Read Guns, Germs and Steel if you are curious how the Europeans did it. All of the factors are environmental.

I agree completely. If you haven't read this book, you should not be discussing this subject. Not that this book is the final answer, but because the real reason for the dominance of Western civilization has more to do with such things as geography and the move to agrarian culture than anything else. Jared Diamond (the author) might not have it exactly right, but once you read his book, you will recognize that he must be on the right track.
 
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midlifebear

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Good for you. Without going into too much detail, I sponsor 10 kids education in Uganda at $50/month a child. Do the math, not free. I volunteer to provide care for homeless, AIDs shelters, and for kids who have lost a sibling/parent/loved one.

I used to coach inner city kids sports teams. Doing my taxes this week my charity extends to the tens of thousands of dollars. One day a year i provide free services to anyone who requests it. About $5-7000 bucks worth.

Sounds like we both do what we can.

Spiker I love when guys give me an opening, using your avatar, he set it up and I get to spike it. :)


Gosh this is fun.


Wild goose chase:

Please spare us the details of how fabulous you are, your amazing intelligence, and any more posts about your superlative humanitarianism. You're not fooling anyone. It's obvious you think making a public fool of yourself is "fun" which belies you have much deeper problems requiring professional help. It's best you not inflict your personal problems on any web site, not just LPSG.

Thanks in advance.
 

JustAsking

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...Jason_els, you are far too kind to hold this asshole's hand through the whole thing, especially with full knowledge that he doesn't give two craps about the truth and that he just posted this to further some ridiculous racist agend he's had on this forum for as long as I can remember.

Here's to hoping other people read your post and understand it, though.

I think your last sentence is right on. This is why I write long and careful responses to postings that look like they dont' deserve it. Most of the time, the idiotic posting represents a common misconception, such as when people spout nonsense about evolution being "just a theory". So when I answer them, it is not necessarily to bring about a conversion in the original poster, but more for the benefit of others who are reading the thread.

Instead of getting pissed at the OP who posts the nonsense, I tend to be greatful for the opportunity he provides with his opening. Typically you won't convert the zealot anyway, but you can neutralize his influence on the casual reader who might be unprepared to take apart the OP's position.

Usually, the extremist is using faulty but persuasive rhetorical techniques to influence those around him as well as rattling common cognitive frames. This OP, for example doesn't need to work hard, because people do have a cognitive frame about Jews, intelligence, and achievement. So the advantage goes to the OP, since all it takes is a few sound bytes to rattle a frame.

The trick is to take advantage of the fact that the OP has already rattled a frame and has created a nexus of interest into which you can inject a rebuttle. This is important because the rebuttles are more lengthy and less "sound byte efficient" than the outrageous statements made by an OP.

So here, the OP has created the nexus of interest, which allows people like Jason and Guy-Jin to provide a longer and well thought out rebuttle. Whereas if they Jason was the OP with his long and beautifully written post, he might not draw as large an audience as the OP did with his outrageous stuff.

The point is that the rebuttles are not necessarily useful because they convert the OP. They are useful for the rest of us who come to be interested in the discussion.
 

D_Chaumbrelayne_Copprehead

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We can talk about ethnicity and intelligence all you want.

HOWEVER: There are still greater differences among members of any group you choose ... than there are between that group and any other population you want to look at.

In other words ... for any special "thing" you want to look at ... some group will have more than others. But on average ... the differences between groups of people are much smaller.

SO: IF there is a higher population of Ashkenazi Jews with a higher IQ than there is in other ethnic groups .... that says nothing about Ashkenazi Jews IN GENERAL. It doesn't even forecast future intelligence of the group ... after all, those high-IQ folks may be so wrapped up in their careers that they reproduce less often than people with more time for fucking.

Here's an easy to understand LPSG example: my son and I go swimming with other fathers and sons we know. We're both pretty well endowed, and have Finnish heritage. We're all standing around naked in the swimming pool showers, and the guys with the Finnish genes have bigger dicks. That means Finns must be better endowed!

No, it means that THOSE folks with Finnish blood have bigger dicks. Finns on average don't have bigger dicks than Swedes, Danes, Norwegians, et al.



Who was it who said there are lies, damned lies and statistics?
 
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kalipygian

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I think your last sentence is right on. This is why I write long and careful responses to postings that look like they dont' deserve it. Most of the time, the idiotic posting represents a common misconception, such as when people spout nonsense about evolution being "just a theory". So when I answer them, it is not necessarily to bring about a conversion in the original poster, but more for the benefit of others who are reading the thread.

Instead of getting pissed at the OP who posts the nonsense, I tend to be greatful for the opportunity he provides with his opening. Typically you won't convert the zealot anyway, but you can neutralize his influence on the casual reader who might be unprepared to take apart the OP's position.

Usually, the extremist is using faulty but persuasive rhetorical techniques to influence those around him as well as rattling common cognitive frames. This OP, for example doesn't need to work hard, because people do have a cognitive frame about Jews, intelligence, and achievement. So the advantage goes to the OP, since all it takes is a few sound bytes to rattle a frame.

The trick is to take advantage of the fact that the OP has already rattled a frame and has created a nexus of interest into which you can inject a rebuttle. This is important because the rebuttles are more lengthy and less "sound byte efficient" than the outrageous statements made by an OP.

So here, the OP has created the nexus of interest, which allows people like Jason and Guy-Jin to provide a longer and well thought out rebuttle. Whereas if they Jason was the OP with his long and beautifully written post, he might not draw as large an audience as the OP did with his outrageous stuff.

The point is that the rebuttles are not necessarily useful because they convert the OP. They are useful for the rest of us who come to be interested in the discussion.

Exactly, the view to post ratio for this thread is 8 to 1, quite a few people read who don't post. I am glad that you and other reasoning members are willing to go to the trouble to respond.
 

Wyldgusechaz

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First off *Guns Germs and Steel* is just an opinion. Its mostly a story, there is no science in it at all. I re read, just to make sure it wasn't the total hokum it appeared to be in the beginning and its worse than ever. Its been soundly discredited by scholars brighter than me.

(((((((((((Just one excerpt from one scholar
Objections

There are several objections to his theory that Prof. Diamond anticipates. One is the absence of controlled experiments. If Prof. Diamond is right, had Bantus literally switched places with the inhabitants of Europe 10,000 years ago today’s Bantus would occupy the world role Europeans do now. What direct corroborative evidence is there for this? Prof. Diamond cites the failure of Europeans to domesticate African wildlife and the keenness with which Plains Indians adopted horses to show that personnel is irrelevant, but anecdotes are no substitute for systematic comparative studies.

This weakness is not fatal. As Prof. Diamond observes, other hard-to-test theories about remote origins, like evolution and continental drift, get by on indirect evidence because of their great explanatory power: if they are correct, they explain a great deal. But Prof. Diamond’s account is much weaker, and does not actually explain what it claims to, because it does not adequately distinguish the conditions necessary for civilization from those sufficient to produce it. The distinction, one Prof. Diamond fully acknowledges, bears stressing. You can’t start a fire in the absence of oxygen—oxygen is necessary for combustion—but it does not follow that once you have oxygen you automatically have combustion. The presence of oxygen does not explain the Chicago fire.

Likewise, Prof. Diamond is no doubt right that a large industrial society cannot form without plentiful food, compliant animals and contact with outside ideas. The descendants of a band of Europeans stranded on a Pacific atoll 5,000 years ago would not be building moon rockets today; a potential Newton would be too busy gathering coconuts to wonder why they fall. But it does not follow from this near-truism that just any human group with crops, animals and outside contacts will rise as high as European man—that, given these factors, civilization is automatic. It certainly does not follow that any two human groups will exploit these resources to precisely the same extent.

In fact, different groups as they now exist plainly do not respond identically to identical inputs. Japanese played no part in the creation of modern science, but once exposed to it they embraced it, and now lead the world in making cars, computers and other high-tech gadgets. Africans have been aware of European technology for just as long, but microchip firms have not sprung up in Kenya.

Prof. Diamond replies that unlike Kenya, Japan can build on "a long history of literacy, metal machinery, and centralized government," ultimately traceable to flora, fauna and stimulating ideas imported earlier. However, the "history" of any individual begins at birth, so Prof. Diamond’s theory predicts that Kenyans reared in the west should be just as adept at technology as the average westerner. But we do not find this. Descendants of Africans have lived in the US for ten generations, and have been immersed in its culture (and unconnected with Africa) for at least five. Yet black contributions to technology remain negligible. As is well known, American blacks reared from infancy in middle-class white households show adult levels of IQ and scholastic achievement barely above the American black mean. Similarly, though less dramatically, Koreans reared in European families display IQs characteristic of Koreans, not the slightly lower ones of their adoptive parents. Current members of different groups do not exploit resources, including knowledge, with equal efficiency, and there is no reason to think they did so in the past. Given everything we know, if we returned in a time machine to Africa circa 10,000 BC and transplanted the Bantus to a land of milk, honey, horses and heavy-seed grasses, they would not take to city-building as readily as their Eurasian contemporaries.

All of which suggests that the comparatively easy domestication of foodstuffs and animals in Eurasia at most only accelerated group divergences already under way. This in any case is what evolutionary logic demands. The different environments they had occupied for tens of thousands of years previously would have forced Africans, Europeans, Asians and Amerindians apart by 8,000 B.C.

Prof. Diamond devotes only two dismissive sentences to this idea:

"Many northern Europeans assume that technology thrives in a rigorous climate where survival is impossible without technology, and withers in a benign climate where clothing is unnecessary and bananas supposedly fall off the trees. An opposite view is that benign environments leave people free from the constant struggle for existence, free to devote themselves to innovation."

What Prof. Diamond should have done at this point was to ask which scenario is more plausible, and, if possible, integrate these ideas into his own hypothesis. Instead he resorts to a debater’s trick: meet an unwelcome idea with its polar opposite, and hope the two cancel each other out.

This blindness to human evolution is the great weakness of Guns. I mentioned earlier the selective pressures applied to Eurasians by the transition to farming. Surprisingly—amazingly—Prof. Diamond traces the genetic effects of domestication on plants and animals (today’s dogs and cats have smaller brains than their feral counterparts), on animal-borne diseases, and on the human immune system, but it never occurs to him that domestication, agriculture and urbanization might also have altered the domesticators in far-reaching ways. That this did in fact happen is a central theme of contemporary sociobiology.

Take the ability to soothe a nervous horse. The neurological basis for this ability must have shown up from time to time as a mutation, but in the absence of horses it conferred no survival value, and did not take hold. But once horses were tamed, the ability to handle them became valuable, hence fitness-conferring, hence fixed in the population. Or take foresight, always somewhat useful, but possibly more useful, hence more apt to be selected for, when grain must be stored, seeds husbanded, and other tasks requiring visualization of the future must be done.



Cooperation and Morality

But the deepest changes in the human psyche induced by urbanization concern co-operation and intelligence. Everyone in a small band of hunter-gatherers is related, so general altruism enhances inclusive genetic fitness. By aiding any other band member, even at some cost to myself, I automatically aid a carrier of some of my own genes. Greater concern for closer relatives aside, no advantage accrues to discrimination about whom to help. But when (thanks to farming) hundreds of people live together, pure helpfulness may subordinate my own genetic interests to those of an unrelated stranger. Being able to tell relatives from non-relatives suddenly becomes adaptive, and the enhanced cognitive abilities needed to do so are likely to develop.



Many evolutionary psychologists trace much of modern man’s intellectual attainments to the cognitive demands of multiperson interactions (Eurasian man’s, of course, but this they don’t say).

Therefore, even if, improbably, early Eurasian urbanization was an accident, hundreds of generations of city life itself would have molded Eurasians to differ from Africans, Australasians and Amerindians in significant genetic ways: to be more intelligent, more gregarious, and to adopt norms closer to the golden rule. In fact, Richard Lynn, Edward Miller and J. P. Rushton, who have conjectured about the evolutionary effects of climate during hominid evolution, could easily add the genetic changes triggered by urbanization to their models of prehistory.

But how could Prof. Diamond, a self-proclaimed evolutionary biologist, have missed these arguments about the effects of urbanization? They are not the preserve of a tiny coterie. There is now a highly developed mathematical theory of the evolution of cooperation, expounded in several books well known to academics, and articles about it appear regularly in top journals, like Science, Nature and Journal of Theoretical Biology. Prof. Diamond must know of these developments. Why does he ignore them?

In part, because of Occam’s razor. Since (Prof. Diamond thinks) race differences are not needed to explain history, looking for them is pointless.

To a certain extent this conviction is justified: if we didn’t already know from other evidence that the races differ, his case would be quite persuasive.

Guns is easily the best environmentalist anthropology ever written. But Prof. Diamond’s scientific edifice stands on the usual moralistic foundation. He makes very plain his opposition to "racism." Unlike Stephen Jay Gould, Prof. Diamond is too honest to cheat for ideological reasons, but he so dislikes "racists" that he can’t separate his desire to refute them from the happy feeling of actually having done so. I honestly wonder how Prof. Diamond would react if forced to deal with the detailed evidence of race differences that has been accumulating for the past half century.



Michael Levin is in the Department of Philosophy of the Graduate Center of the City University of New York.

This review originally appeared in the July, 1998 issue of American Renaissance. A copy was faxed to Jared Diamond before publication with an invitation that he respond to it but he chose not to.)))))))))))))))))

There are so many scholarly refutations of Guns, Germs, and Steel, it has become a whole cottage industry of itself.
 
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Wyldgusechaz

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Jason, what you have done in your well written post, is totally provide another form of corroboration for my links. Jews were in fields that demanded high cognitive skills, as you point out, so to use the links theory, only Jews with high cognitive skills were biologically successful. Any way you slice, that means their intellect was inherited, which means a gene based model for Jewish intelligence.
 

Wyldgusechaz

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Give me some evidence that Jews have different levels or structures of neurons, synapses, neurotransmitters, myelin and gray matter. Give me some evidence that Africans do. Oh, you don't have any. Color me "preposterous".

It's not about being PC.

It's about me being a genetic scientist in real life and being intolerant of your asinine threads where you act like you have any clue what you're talking about when you don't.

You want un-PC? You're a goddamn racist moron and your threads are flaming piles of racist shit that have no basis in reality. There you go.

Jason_els, you are far too kind to hold this asshole's hand through the whole thing, especially with full knowledge that he doesn't give two craps about the truth and that he just posted this to further some ridiculous racist agend he's had on this forum for as long as I can remember.

Here's to hoping other people read your post and understand it, though.

Here is a quote from your leader

>>>>>>>>The explanation that the Ashkenazic disease genes must have some hidden value has long been accepted by other researchers, but no one could find a convincing infectious disease or other threat to which the Ashkenazic genetic ailments might confer protection.

A second suggestion, wrote Dr. Jared Diamond of the University of California, Los Angeles, in a 1994 article, "is selection in Jews for the intelligence putatively required to survive recurrent persecution, and also to make a living by commerce, because Jews were barred from the agricultural jobs available to the non-Jewish population."

The Utah researchers have built on this idea, arguing that for some 900 years Jews in Europe were restricted to managerial occupations, which were intellectually demanding, that those who were more successful also left more offspring, and that there was time in this period for the intelligence of the Ashkenazi population as a whole to become appreciably enhanced.<<<<<<<<<<

Your own guy Jared Diamond, signed off on a possible genetic component to Jewish intellect in the above quote. Talk about beating a guy with his own shoe. :)


And yes Ashkenazi Jews do have differing levels of neural components and thats why at times they get neural diseases out of proportion to other ethnic groups.
 

lipollo

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im sorry to the poster speaking about Finish men and dick size in trying to draw an analogical comparison to the individual and collective but you are absolutely wrong in trying to palm off the most obvious gap in intellectualism between Ashkenazi Jews and seemingly every other 'race' on earth, and moreso Africans who on record are the most illiterate and uneducated on earth.

Moreover by correlating dick size i think you are either misguided or trying to suggest that genetics plays a big part in the development in the intelligence of the Ashkenazi Jews?

Personally I don't believe the Guns Steel and Germs theory because it is society which plays a key role in the development and broadening of spheres of knowledge. Again, I go back to ancient Greece where intellectualism stemmed AS A PAST TIME not as a central part of society.

In the same way as dick sdize plays a big role in defining a 'man' in todays society intellectualism was for the Ancient Greeks, so much so that men with big dicks were considered unintelligent fools (something which must be said to be rather true for todays 'I have a bigger dick then you so I am better' kind of man).

Throughout the centuries African society just hasnt been able to push its societal boundaries to pave the way for educational honours. This however is not a genetic defect but moreso the result of the collapse of Egyptian society (which however for the record was not African Black per se as the intellectuals in Egypt were white and the slaves black) and the creation of a cycle of slavery.
 
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That might be true if only those Jews with high cognitive skills reproduced. The fact is, however, that marriage was just a strict requirement of Judaism as it was for Christianity. You would marry and you would reproduce. Reproduction was not limited to the wealthy and educated. The only Jews with restrictions on who they marry are the Cohanim.

I should also note that the Sephardim were in the same boat with the Ashkenazim. They had to live the same kind of life and, because of their geographic location, endured some of the severest persecution throughout medieval and renaissance Europe.

Jason, what you have done in your well written post, is totally provide another form of corroboration for my links. Jews were in fields that demanded high cognitive skills, as you point out, so to use the links theory, only Jews with high cognitive skills were biologically successful. Any way you slice, that means their intellect was inherited, which means a gene based model for Jewish intelligence.
 

faceking

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Did Discrimination Enhance Intelligence of Jews?

FuturePundit: On The Evolution Of Ashkenazi Jewish Intelligence

Jewish intelligence, Jewish genes, and Jewish values. - By William Saletan - Slate Magazine


Always one to challenge the PCness of this world, I found this interesting article and research.

Why can't we talk about intelligence as having a genetic component? If we can talk about a race, the Ashkenazi Jew, as having elevated intelligence, why can't we talk about races that are possibly not as intelligent?

You may not want to talk about it, it might be abhorrent and repellant but that does not make it wrong. To deny that there are physical differences between races, when clearly they are visible to the naked eye is just completely intellectually dishonest.

Here we have evidence of a genetic change in less than 15 hundred years in the level of intelligence of one race of people. To think that populations that have lived apart from each other for 70000 years have not had genetic drift in several physical components is ludicrous.

Mostly due to culture. Why do I know of so many poor Vietnamese children in San Jose winning their high school valedictorian and near perfect SATs, while in other poor neighborhood of other minority concentrations it's not the same. Perhaps with the Jewish culture, it's partly the result of a Darwinistic outcome from cultural values over hundreds and hundreds of years. The slackers and 'challenged' where dealt with in a variety of ways (from extreme to just class/societal favortism), and over time, the jean pool has been, um, tidy'd up a bit.

Not sure.

However, if you were to extend the Nobel Prize for science (as the peace prize is the biggest joke, and carries about as much credibility as an MTV Movie Award) back thousands of years... you'd see a streak of Italians/Romans, Chinese, English/French, and kicking off with the Persians and Egyptians.

Maybe in 300 years, you'll find one Jew a year leading the way, and it'll be the Croatians or Peruvians or Morrocans that fill the coffers of science ...
 
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Throughout the centuries African society just hasnt been able to push its societal boundaries to pave the way for educational honours. This however is not a genetic defect but moreso the result of the collapse of Egyptian society (which however for the record was not African Black per se as the intellectuals in Egypt were white and the slaves black) and the creation of a cycle of slavery.

Did you know the phrase, "from here to Timbuktu," stems from the days when Timbuktu was the most sophisticated city in the world and stayed that way for about 200 years from the 1300s to the early 1600s. Timbuktu had some of the first universities, such as the famed Sankore, and a library that boasted over 100,000 titles including extremely rare ancient Greek texts. The wealthy maintained a very high number of private libraries.

Timbuktu was at the heart of one of the greatest empires ever, the Mali, which ranged from the coast of west Africa to Egypt and Ethiopia at its peak had about 400 urban cities. Mali's legendary ruler, Mansa Musa, was so rich that he made pilgrimage to Mecca with retainers throwing jewels and gold beneath his feet as he walked. His retinue spent so much gold in Cairo that the price of gold in Cairo didn't recover for decades.
 

faceking

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Did you know the phrase, "from here to Timbuktu," stems from the days when Timbuktu was the most sophisticated city in the world and stayed that way for about 200 years from the 1300s to the early 1600s. /quote]

Actually it doesn't. The phrase is less 200 yrs old, and is a Western culture reference to how remote it was to get to, when the city/area was still of interest, but no longer as a powerhouse. But we get your point. I believe Katmandu is of the same ilk... thusly the hundreds of years old term "I'm going to Katmandu"... or was that Bob Seger in the 70's?? Can't recall.
 

pym

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Did you know the phrase, "from here to Timbuktu," stems from the days when Timbuktu was the most sophisticated city in the world and stayed that way for about 200 years from the 1300s to the early 1600s. /quote]

Actually it doesn't. The phrase is less 200 yrs old, and is a Western culture reference to how remote it was to get to, when the city/area was still of interest, but no longer as a powerhouse. But we get your point. I believe Katmandu is of the same ilk... thusly the hundreds of years old term "I'm going to Katmandu"... or was that Bob Seger in the 70's?? Can't recall.

The key word is 'STEMS' facey. Get a clue.
 

faceking

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The key word is 'STEMS' facey. Get a clue.


No actually, you referred to it's dominance as the reason for the popular phrase, while I'm referring to it's remoteness long after it's dominance as the reason for the popular quote.

It's like saying "I Left My Heart in San Francisco" came from when the Barbary Coast was a rough and tumble place, and you'd get your aorta carved out... vs. the charm of the city in the mid 20th century.

Lighten up, Francis.
 
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The key word is 'STEMS' facey. Get a clue.

In fairness, I did say it to mean the phrase is about 600 years old. I looked and it does seem the phrase originated in the 1820s when the French offered a prize to the first westerner to reach the fabled city (and return alive as the first one didn't). Thank your for the correction.:smile: