Ashkenazi Jews and intelligence

pym

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In fairness, I did say it to mean the phrase is about 600 years old. I looked and it does seem the phrase originated in the 1820s when the French offered a prize to the first westerner to reach the fabled city (and return alive as the first one didn't). Thank your for the correction.:smile:

I did'nt understand it that way myself. I have come across phrases referencing Timbuktu throughout my life in older literature, Noteworthy from my memory would be Edith Nesbit books from when i was a kid through to references by Kipling......all with a nod to antiquity. It would seem fair to interprate it thusly. And besides.....i ain't giving Facey an inch.:rolleyes:
 

faceking

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In fairness, I did say it to mean the phrase is about 600 years old. I looked and it does seem the phrase originated in the 1820s when the French offered a prize to the first westerner to reach the fabled city (and return alive as the first one didn't). Thank your for the correction.:smile:

Eh, I was just looking for an excuse to throw in the AWFUL Bob Seger reference. Forgive me on that one... won't happen again, as I really hate that song.
 

lipollo

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Did you know the phrase, "from here to Timbuktu," stems from the days when Timbuktu was the most sophisticated city in the world and stayed that way for about 200 years from the 1300s to the early 1600s. Timbuktu had some of the first universities, such as the famed Sankore, and a library that boasted over 100,000 titles including extremely rare ancient Greek texts. The wealthy maintained a very high number of private libraries.

Timbuktu was at the heart of one of the greatest empires ever, the Mali, which ranged from the coast of west Africa to Egypt and Ethiopia at its peak had about 400 urban cities. Mali's legendary ruler, Mansa Musa, was so rich that he made pilgrimage to Mecca with retainers throwing jewels and gold beneath his feet as he walked. His retinue spent so much gold in Cairo that the price of gold in Cairo didn't recover for decades.

The idea that I must change thousands of years of history because of an anomaly is remarkably astonishing. Moreso because This empire was not run as an African empire but underpinned by Islamic law so much so that the university you speak off mainly focused on just studying the qu'ran and also that the empires main export was slavery (which is clearly evident as the decline of the empire coincided with the portuguese discovery of other export markets).

Also using wikipedia as a source is remarkably poor considering it says that he took an entourage of 60,000 people to Mecca. I would suggest this falls in the line of majestic fantasy especially considering he was from a distant exotic place, was black and was apparently rich.
 

Guy-jin

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Guy-jin maybie I am naiive because I dont really post or read much but you seem to be the only person who has made reference to "Blacks" being dumb on this thread.

Actually I agree with you 100% that Jews as a whole have more X or Y in their body than other races per se but I think you must agree that whilst it is true that Black people are not dumber then Jews or whites whatever it must be acknowledged at the very least that for many reasons (with motives stemming from colonialism to the Arab Slave Trade) Africa as a collective has not been conducive to westernised intellectual constructs meaning that "Black" people per se not that they are 'dumber' but they have no tools necessary to actually explore science, maths etc.

That is something which I think has to be raised.

It is certainly wrong to suggest that Jews are "superior" in intelligence to whoever due to genetics but to suggest that there is an equal balance when so many awards are skewed in Ashkenazi Jews favour does show that at the very least their society and culture is much more conducive to 'Western' intelligence (and i stress that point) then Africans, Anglo-Saxons and yes Africans (although the extent to which it is their fault for being in such a predicament is certainly not their fault).

As I said in my posts, this isn't the first time Wyldgusechaz has posted comments of this ilk. His previous incarnations of it included numerous ones where he tries to make a case for Africans having inferior intelligence due to genetics.


And, as I said in my first post, he is definitely trying to head in this direction in this thread. For evidence, look no further than his first post in this thread:

Why can't we talk about intelligence as having a genetic component? If we can talk about a race, the Ashkenazi Jew, as having elevated intelligence, why can't we talk about races that are possibly not as intelligent?

All he's doing is trying to make a "persuasive" case for a correlation between Ashkenazi Jews being a genetically isolated population and them having a higher proportion of "intelligent" people. Then, if he was allowed to get away with it, he would go on to make a case for Africans being the opposite.

Anyway, based on your post, I can see you agree on the fact that there isn't evidence for a genetic basis for these phenomenon. As I've said, and others like Jason_els have made a much better explanation for, if anything, it's the cultural, social, and familial influence that affects intelligence more than anything else. Ashkenazi Jews historically have a culture that values education and encourages intellectual curiousity. Is it any wonder they have more Nobel prizes, as rubi pointed out?

This is ultimately the source of the myth of Asians having "superior intellect" to other peoples as well. It has far more to do with the parents sitting their children down and making them study, instilling them with the idea that education and knowledge is the most valuable thing in the world than it does with them having some "magic" genes that increase brain function.

The problem with Wyldgusechaz is that his approach is always to try to use genetics to make these statements. He wants to believe there's some inherent factors that ultimately determine who is smarter, who is stronger, who is in power. He doesn't want to believe there are more black basketball players because more black kids go outside and play basketball. He doesn't want to believe that there are more Jewish Nobel prize winners because Jewish kids are inside studying (while their black classmates are out playing basketball).

If he were making the argument that cultural and social factors are the major contributors to these racial trends, I wouldn't have a problem with them. My problem is that he tries to convince people of completely false genetic science to push what is ultimately a racist agenda.
 

midlifebear

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As I said in my posts, this isn't the first time Wyldgusechaz has posted comments of this ilk.

[Stuff in the middle with which I agree.]

All he's doing is trying to make a "persuasive" case for a correlation between Ashkenazi Jews being a genetically isolated population and them having a higher proportion of "intelligent" people. Then, if he was allowed to get away with it, he would go on to make a case for Africans being the opposite.

My problem is that he tries to convince people of completely false genetic science to push what is ultimately a racist agenda.

Bulls eye! Excellent post Guy-jin! :tongue:
 

Wyldgusechaz

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As I said in my posts, this isn't the first time Wyldgusechaz has posted comments of this ilk. His previous incarnations of it included numerous ones where he tries to make a case for Africans having inferior intelligence due to genetics.


And, as I said in my first post, he is definitely trying to head in this direction in this thread. For evidence, look no further than his first post in this thread:



All he's doing is trying to make a "persuasive" case for a correlation between Ashkenazi Jews being a genetically isolated population and them having a higher proportion of "intelligent" people. Then, if he was allowed to get away with it, he would go on to make a case for Africans being the opposite.

Anyway, based on your post, I can see you agree on the fact that there isn't evidence for a genetic basis for these phenomenon. As I've said, and others like Jason_els have made a much better explanation for, if anything, it's the cultural, social, and familial influence that affects intelligence more than anything else. Ashkenazi Jews historically have a culture that values education and encourages intellectual curiousity. Is it any wonder they have more Nobel prizes, as rubi pointed out?

This is ultimately the source of the myth of Asians having "superior intellect" to other peoples as well. It has far more to do with the parents sitting their children down and making them study, instilling them with the idea that education and knowledge is the most valuable thing in the world than it does with them having some "magic" genes that increase brain function.

The problem with Wyldgusechaz is that his approach is always to try to use genetics to make these statements. He wants to believe there's some inherent factors that ultimately determine who is smarter, who is stronger, who is in power. He doesn't want to believe there are more black basketball players because more black kids go outside and play basketball. He doesn't want to believe that there are more Jewish Nobel prize winners because Jewish kids are inside studying (while their black classmates are out playing basketball).

If he were making the argument that cultural and social factors are the major contributors to these racial trends, I wouldn't have a problem with them. My problem is that he tries to convince people of completely false genetic science to push what is ultimately a racist agenda.

I will play your game

Certainly cultural factors play into it, but are you really going to tell me there are more blacks playing basketball than whites and Asians? There 39 million blacks in America. They dominate basketball. There are over 1 billion Chinese and only one plays in the NBA although it has been shown raw numbers of Chinese playing basketball dwarf the number of blacks worldwide playing basketball.

China went on a nationwide scouring to find as many athletes as it could for its hosting of the Olympics. As I said before it would dominate diving and gymnastics and several *coordination/training* sports and it did. And I said a West African black would win the sprints and they did. In fact they came from one island Jamaica.

I don't need to defend what is clear from today's sports headlines. You are wrong and refuse to say it.

You are a sap.
 

Guy-jin

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I will play your game

Certainly cultural factors play into it, but are you really going to tell me there are more blacks playing basketball than whites and Asians? There 39 million blacks in America. They dominate basketball. There are over 1 billion Chinese and only one plays in the NBA although it has been shown raw numbers of Chinese playing basketball dwarf the number of blacks worldwide playing basketball.

China went on a nationwide scouring to find as many athletes as it could for its hosting of the Olympics. As I said before it would dominate diving and gymnastics and several *coordination/training* sports and it did. And I said a West African black would win the sprints and they did. In fact they came from one island Jamaica.

I don't need to defend what is clear from today's sports headlines. You are wrong and refuse to say it.

You are a sap.

It's not so much "playing my game" as "falling into my trap". I didn't pick a sports example by accident. I knew you'd take the bait and start making racist sports statements as well.

Next you're going to tell me Canadians are good at Winter sports because of their genetics. They must all be descended from Erik the Red, right? Those Japanese downhill skiiers are historically wonderful because of Mt. Fuji, right?

It's really sad that you actually believe the racist garbage that you do, man.
 

Nrets

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Well fuck, when you're getting chased by a bunch of bloodthristy cossacks on horses for half of your known History you are bound to pack it up and move inside and spend lots of time reading books. After generations of doing that...academics comes easier perhaps.
 

Wyldgusechaz

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It's not so much "playing my game" as "falling into my trap". I didn't pick a sports example by accident. I knew you'd take the bait and start making racist sports statements as well.

Next you're going to tell me Canadians are good at Winter sports because of their genetics. They must all be descended from Erik the Red, right? Those Japanese downhill skiiers are historically wonderful because of Mt. Fuji, right?

It's really sad that you actually believe the racist garbage that you do, man.

You really are dumb. Because you have been trapped. What you are saying is that the lack of Chinese sprinters is because they are too lazy. And you are also saying is that the lack of excellence in intellectual pursuits has to be because blacks don't value education.

By your own admission, Jews score higher on IQ tests cause they have a tradition of emphasis on education since the time of David. If blacks don't score well on IQ tests it must be then be as a culture they DO NOT have an emphasis on education.

Does that sound better? So I guess we should tell black kids, you are not less gifted than Jewish or Asian kids, you and your family are simply lazier or you would have the sane academic achievement.

What a fucking dope and if you are a gene scientist, no wonder we are so slow to conquer genetic disease.
 

JustAsking

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...By your own admission, Jews score higher on IQ tests cause they have a tradition of emphasis on education since the time of David. If blacks don't score well on IQ tests it must be then be as a culture they DO NOT have an emphasis on education.

Does that sound better? ....
Yes, I think you are beginning to understand now.
 

lipollo

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Yes thats correct but you must also differentiate what education means because we are talking about 'Western' education which in most cases has been unecessary in African tribal society. So if it is irrelevent why would their society be conducive to study it.
 

Wyldgusechaz

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Yes thats correct but you must also differentiate what education means because we are talking about 'Western' education which in most cases has been unecessary in African tribal society. So if it is irrelevent why would their society be conducive to study it.

Yeah but that does not explain blacks scoring poorer in America. Remember the history of any person begins at birth. He/she is a clean slate.

Black-White IQ Differences

So it would follow that any black child raised in a education oriented household, maybe even a white home, would do as well as his white counterparts, but that isn't the case.

And lets look at this: If we accept Albert Einstein as a brilliant man, and we follow from other posts here that Jews have a tradition of education rooted in great part by studying the Torah and Talmudic scholar, how do we reconcile the fact that Einstein was not raised in a religious household and in fact was educated in a Catholic elementary school?

Here is his youth for you:

Albert Einstein was born into a Jewish family in Ulm, in the Kingdom of Württemberg in the German Empire on March 14, 1879. His father was Hermann Einstein, a salesman and engineer. His mother was Pauline Einstein (née Koch). In 1880, the family moved to Munich, where his father and his uncle founded a company, Elektrotechnische Fabrik J. Einstein & Cie, that manufactured electrical equipment based on Direct current.
The Einsteins were not observant of Jewish religious practices, and Albert attended a Catholic elementary school. Although Einstein had early speech difficulties, he was a top student in elementary school.[4][5]


Albert Einstein in 1893 (age 14), taken before the family moved to Italy
When Einstein was five, his father showed him a pocket compass. Einstein realized that there must be something in the space, previously thought to be empty, that was moving the needle and later stated that this experience made "a deep and lasting impression".[6] At his mother's insistence, he took violin lessons starting at age six, and although he disliked them and eventually quit, he later took great pleasure in Mozart's violin sonatas. As he grew, Einstein built models and mechanical devices for fun, and began to show a talent for mathematics.
In 1889, family friend Max Talmud, a medical student,[7] introduced the ten-year-old Einstein to key science, mathematics, and philosophy texts, including Kant's Critique of Pure Reason and Euclid's Elements (Einstein called it the "holy little geometry book").[7] From Euclid, Einstein began to understand deductive reasoning, and by the age of twelve, he had learned Euclidean geometry. Soon thereafter he began to investigate infinitesimal calculus.
In his early teens, Einstein attended the Luitpold Gymnasium. His father intended for him to pursue electrical engineering, but Einstein clashed with authorities and resented the school regimen. He later wrote that the spirit of learning and creative thought were lost in strict rote learning.
In 1894, when Einstein was fifteen, his father's business failed, as DC had lost the War of Currents to alternating current (AC). In search of business, the Einstein family moved to Italy, first to Milan and then, after a few months, to Pavia. During this time, Einstein wrote his first scientific work, "The Investigation of the State of Aether in Magnetic Fields".[8] Einstein had been left behind in Munich to finish high school, but in the spring of 1895, he withdrew to join his family in Pavia, convincing the school to let him go by using a doctor's note.
Rather than completing high school, Einstein decided to apply directly to the Eidgenössische Polytechnische Schule (later Eidgenössische Technische Hochschule (ETH)) in Zürich, Switzerland. Lacking a school certificate, he was required to take an entrance examination, which he did not pass, although he got exceptional marks in mathematics and physics.[9] Einstein wrote that it was in that same year, at age 16, that he first performed his famous thought experiment visualizing traveling alongside a beam of light (Einstein 1979).
 

D_Gunther Snotpole

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And lets look at this: If we accept Albert Einstein as a brilliant man, and we follow from other posts here that Jews have a tradition of education rooted in great part by studying the Torah and Talmudic scholar, how do we reconcile the fact that Einstein was not raised in a religious household and in fact was educated in a Catholic elementary school?

Einstein would still presumably be a product of the Jewish tradition of revering learning, for one thing, Chaz.
But even if you prove that a given Jew is brilliant (as of course Einstein was), that particular case says nothing about Jewish intelligence in general.

Frankly, Chaz, I think you can gingerly make a case that there may be some genetic differences in intelligence between races ... but real proof is hard to offer.
The measures of intelligence are of debatable worth, the alleged differences are of debatable significance, and prejudicing cultural factors may or may not be things that can be factored out in any degree.

I don't think this discussion should be ruled out in all settings. But I have to wonder if a big-dick site is the ideal venue.

However, the main point to make is that this is a thankless subject.
Most people find it all profoundly unwholesome to talk about.
And you, Chaz, only get lambasted.
So what's the point?