Astrology

[concupisys]

i think a lot of the reason for so much skepticism about astrology and spiritual mediums/healers is that it's been heavily exploited by our culture.... cold readers, tv psychics and telephone hotlines have really clouded these practices with a lot of BS, and even spiritual healers are turning their skills in to money-making schemes - which, if you read a lot of texts on the practices, you'll find is totally not cool....

healers and mediums have been given a gift.... it's not something they're supposed to be charging money for, nor is it something that is supposed to be promoted through mass media and celebrity endorsements.... all the encounters i've had within this realm have been chance encounters, and didn't cost me anything to learn or experience.... in fact, a couple of mediums i know actually FOUND ME because they said they were drawn to my energy and felt that i could learn something from them....

just remember folks: if you're going to direct your life in to this realm, it should not be done in a 'boutique' fashion.... spirituality and astrology is an organic realm, much like that of a garden in your backyard.... you cultivate and care for it yourself, and the rewards you reap from it are meant to be shared and not sold....

 

[B_bi_mmf]

i think a lot of the reason for so much skepticism about astrology and spiritual mediums/healers is that it's been heavily exploited by our culture...

Actually, the skepticism stems primarily from the simple fact that this stuff is all made up.

 

[Calboner]

It really is all interesting stuff, whether or not its "probable" by skeptic dissection. It can be immerse-able as well which might be of value for artists or Self-astronauts.

In other words, if you produce enough bullshit, you are sure to find something that you like.

 

[D_Gunther Snotpole]

Actually, the skepticism stems primarily from the simple fact that this stuff is all made up.

Not quite sure what you mean.
Do you mean that the average astrologer in India, say, is knowingly peddling bullshit?
Because I think most astrologers believe deeply in their discipline.
Do you mean that the various systems of astrology, at their beginnings, were just pulled out of thin air?
I doubt that.
When physicians recommended leaching, they were peddling nonsense, but didn't know it.
I think it's possible that the same thing can be said of astrologers.
(And I hold open the possibility that there is some truth in some parts of the many systems of astrology ... though I really don't know.)

 

[concupisys]

bi mmf: while i respect your opinion, you might want to provide some information to back it up.... just saying it's made up is a cop-out response to this topic.... why don't you talk about your experience with it?

 

[concupisys]

"In other words, if you produce enough bullshit, you are sure to find something that you like."

to the optimist you're actually right.... the optimist will shovel the shit happily because they know that there's gotta be a bull or a horse around there somewhere creating it..... the pessimist could be given a lavish fairground and be miserable because they ran out of tickets to get on the rides....

 

[unique_exposure]

Originally Posted by unique_exposure
It really is all interesting stuff, whether or not its "probable" by skeptic dissection. It can be immerse-able as well which might be of value for artists or Self-astronauts.

In other words, if you produce enough bullshit, you are sure to find something that you like.

Calboner what exactly are you implying here?
That self-exploration, art, or both, is "bullshit"?

In what you quoted it was specifically referenced as self-exploratory and not as divination or factual. Is there something to dispute in something being interesting?

 

[B_bi_mmf]

Not quite sure what you mean.
Do you mean that the average astrologer in India, say, is knowingly peddling bullshit?
Because I think most astrologers believe deeply in their discipline.
Do you mean that the various systems of astrology, at their beginnings, were just pulled out of thin air?
I doubt that.
When physicians recommended leaching, they were peddling nonsense, but didn't know it.
I think it's possible that the same thing can be said of astrologers.
(And I hold open the possibility that there is some truth in some parts of the many systems of astrology ... though I really don't know.)

No, not all peddlers of this stuff are knowingly peddling bullshit. The powers of self-delusion can be truly amazing. But, yes, all pulled essentially out of thin air.

 

[B_bi_mmf]

bi mmf: while i respect your opinion, you might want to provide some information to back it up.... just saying it's made up is a cop-out response to this topic.... why don't you talk about your experience with it?

How on earth can I have experience with stuff that is total fabrication? I look at the claims and they are patently bogus.

I cannot disprove such things as a teapot orbiting the moon, but I reject any such claim as obviously a fabrication.

 

[concupisys]

unfortunately for you mmf, i assume that your opinions exist because you have lived a fairly charmed life, free of the experiences that would cause a person to look outside the physical world for guidance.... even the most adamant of skeptics and atheists, should their life reach a point of unbearable proportions, will pray.... i almost feel bad that you haven't had a real and positive experience with the spiritual world at this point in your life.... you're really missing out....

 

[D_Gunther Snotpole]

unfortunately for you mmf, i assume that your opinions exist because you have lived a fairly charmed life, free of the experiences that would cause a person to look outside the physical world for guidance.... even the most adamant of skeptics and atheists, should their life reach a point of unbearable proportions, will pray.... i almost feel bad that you haven't had a real and positive experience with the spiritual world at this point in your life.... you're really missing out....

I wouldn't go that far myself.
I just think, even if one feels quite sure about something, that a small reserve of uncertainty is almost always necessary and somewhat tonic.
I have strong doubts about astrology ... but I also keep that small space open for the possibility that there is something in it, even if my rational mind can't see it.
(In fact, I call keeping that space open rational.)

 

[helgaleena]

Not quite sure what you mean.
Do you mean that the average astrologer in India, say, is knowingly peddling bullshit?
Because I think most astrologers believe deeply in their discipline.
Do you mean that the various systems of astrology, at their beginnings, were just pulled out of thin air?
I doubt that.
When physicians recommended leaching, they were peddling nonsense, but didn't know it.
I think it's possible that the same thing can be said of astrologers.
(And I hold open the possibility that there is some truth in some parts of the many systems of astrology ... though I really don't know.)

Hhuck, using leeches is actually back, for some things... google it. There were sound reasons for some ancient practices, even if quacks came along and misused or overused them for centuries.

And the point concupisys makes about charging for a gift is very valid. I believe it holds for all sorts of 'spiritual' advice. If it can't be got for free, it's probably not the genuine article. It's like Coca-Cola bottling tap-water and selling it... which they do btw...

I only read free horoscopes and sift among them. Why? Because I am cheap, and I would also rather fix my own automobile to the extent that I know how. I once paid for a 'professional' horoscope, and it wasn't very helpful.

 

[concupisys]

"I just think, even if one feels quite sure about something, that a small reserve of uncertainty is almost always necessary and somewhat tonic."

i agree with you on that.... uncertainty will always exist in this realm as we experience it in this life, and it's a healthy thing to feel because it prompts you to seek knowledge and make it work for you.... what irks me are those who won't even acknowledge that in some way, somehow, this other world really does exist.... as for how we experience it, that's a very personal thing....

 

[D_Gunther Snotpole]

Hhuck, using leeches is actually back, for some things... google it. There were sound reasons for some ancient practices, even if quacks came along and misused or overused them for centuries.

Yes, I know that. And it's very interesting.
But eventually leeching was used for almost everything ... and that was bogus, and sometimes fatal.

And the point concupisys makes about charging for a gift is very valid. I believe it holds for all sorts of 'spiritual' advice. If it can't be got for free, it's probably not the genuine article. It's like Coca-Cola bottling tap-water and selling it... which they do btw...

I agree.
(It may be okay to ask for donations where costs are involved on the part of those imparting 'wisdom.')

I only read free horoscopes and sift among them. Why? Because I am cheap, and I would also rather fix my own automobile to the extent that I know how. I once paid for a 'professional' horoscope, and it wasn't very helpful.

I read them for amusement.
I've never had a professional horoscope done, but I'm curious about it.

i agree with you on that.... uncertainty will always exist in this realm as we experience it in this life, and it's a healthy thing to feel because it prompts you to seek knowledge and make it work for you.... what irks me are those who won't even acknowledge that in some way, somehow, this other world really does exist.... as for how we experience it, that's a very personal thing....

Well, I don't think they even need to acknowledge that. (My remark was really a statement of how I would have addressed bi_mmf, who is sincerely speaking in favor of rationality as he, for all I know very correctly, understands it.)
I do think they should acknowledge the possibility that there are things that a strictly rational approach will never manage to address ... because, much as they claim there's no proof that a more 'spiritual' realm does exist, that ain't the same as saying we therefore have proof that it don't exist.
(I'm fairly skeptical about a lot of things myself. Sometimes I think I should have been born in Missouri.)

 

[B_bi_mmf]

unfortunately for you mmf, i assume that your opinions exist because you have lived a fairly charmed life, free of the experiences that would cause a person to look outside the physical world for guidance.... even the most adamant of skeptics and atheists, should their life reach a point of unbearable proportions, will pray.... i almost feel bad that you haven't had a real and positive experience with the spiritual world at this point in your life.... you're really missing out....

Not true about atheists and prayer. One counter-example, of which I know several, debunks your blanket statement.

Interesting dichotomy: on the one hand you attribute a charmed life to me; on the other, you feel bad for me. Please save your pity for someone more in need than I.

I think that if believers were to step back from their beliefs, even just a little, they would realize that millions of others believe just as strongly as they do about spiritual realities that are logically inconsistent with their own, and that all such systems are human constructions.

We have evolved biologically and/or socially in such a way that we do have a capacity for envisioning things like a life beyond. And certainly such constructions have had instrumental value in controlling people's behavior.

But at the end of the day, wishful thinking about something does not make it true. It may give us great comfort to think that there are special people on earth who can communicate with dead people and carry back to us messages about forgiveness, etc., when someone has died with whom we had unfinished business. In a way, it is a beautiful lie, but, nonetheless, clearly a lie as I see it.

Despite your suggestion to the contrary, life need not be impoverished in any way for those of us who do not embrace religion or spirituality (whatever the latter is supposed to be).

We as humans have a capacity for empathy. If we nurture that capacity in ourselves and others, we really don't need much else to live rich, intense lives, full of meaning.

 

[Calboner]

Calboner what exactly are you implying here?
That self-exploration, art, or both, is "bullshit"?

In what you quoted it was specifically referenced as self-exploratory and not as divination or factual. Is there something to dispute in something being interesting?

I did not read the post closely; even when I looked at it a second time, I found it to be such mind-numbing mush that I can't pay sustained attention to it. It is anything but interesting; and it has nothing do with art. It is such a fog of nebulous verbiage that there is nothing sufficiently determinate in it to be either true or false.

 

[unique_exposure]

I did not read the post closely; even when I looked at it a second time, I found it to be such mind-numbing mush that I can't pay sustained attention to it. It is anything but interesting; and it has nothing do with art. It is such a fog of nebulous verbiage that there is nothing sufficiently determinate in it to be either true or false.

Ok, fair enough.

 

[concupisys]

mmf: i said i ALMOST feel bad for you.... if you're happy in your life then obviously there's no reason for me to feel bad for you.... but i almost do, like i almost feel bad for someone who can't eat peanut butter because they're deathly allergic to it.... ultimately, it doesn't really matter because there's so much out there for them to enjoy without the fear of having to use an epi-pen and call an ambulance afterwards.... at the same time though, calling it BS and categorizing true believers in the same realm as those who exploit it isn't fair.... true believers know the difference, and don't allow their beliefs to be clouded by the exploits of the greedy.... those people will get theirs in the end....

 

[B_bi_mmf]

mmf: i said i ALMOST feel bad for you.... if you're happy in your life then obviously there's no reason for me to feel bad for you.... but i almost do, like i almost feel bad for someone who can't eat peanut butter because they're deathly allergic to it.... ultimately, it doesn't really matter because there's so much out there for them to enjoy without the fear of having to use an epi-pen and call an ambulance afterwards.... at the same time though, calling it BS and categorizing true believers in the same realm as those who exploit it isn't fair.... true believers know the difference, and don't allow their beliefs to be clouded by the exploits of the greedy.... those people will get theirs in the end....

A strong argument can be made that far more horrors have been committed by "true believers" than by those who are motivated merely by greed.

In my opinion, the world is not necessarily fair. Exploitive people do often get away with things with no day of reckoning.

 

[concupisys]

"A strong argument can be made that far more horrors have been committed by "true believers" than by those who are motivated merely by greed.

In my opinion, the world is not necessarily fair. Exploitive people do often get away with things with no day of reckoning."

i agree with your first point.... some people have done some pretty diabolic things because they think some divine power told them to.... but alas, sometimes spiritual health and mental health cross wires.... as for your second statement, nobody existing knows if those who exploit the spiritual realm pay any price for it when this life is over because nobody's come back to tell us about it.... that's all part of the orientation package we get while in purgatory....