at LPSG do "manners" count?

B_Stronzo

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Matthew said:
* cowers *

please don't...

Matthew I mean this thread in all sersiousness. I'm interested in your opinion too.

Put please remember it's not the "open season on Stronzo" thread rawbone appeared to want to head it towards. I'm talking about all of us and our individual takes on respect.

I'm attempting to learn here and clever one word posts are not going to further that end in my opinion.
 

rawbone8

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Stronzo said:
...
I think you mistake all posters for our late pichulon. The points of views and variety of opinions is as varied as the posters at this site rawbone. Before snapping to judgment why not try sitting back and using your powers of observation and perhaps you may just well be pleasantly surprised.... (that is unless you want conflict).

This is a very telling thread so far.

I value many of your contributions and you do bring interesting topics to the fore.

Perhaps my egotism is involved, but I assure you that this is not done out of deliberate unkindness toward you or a desire to be rude for rudeness' sake. However conflict is inevitable since I didn't pm you and posted publicly, though not to attempt to goad you maliciously. I thought I'd try to respectfully present my criticism in the open. Perhaps that hijacked the thread, but it's also an attempt to see whether directness and unveilled communication is worthwhile. You apparently see it as unmannered on my part.

I respect you enough to say it directly to you, and hope that emotions like anger don't prevent you from evaluating said criticism as a well intentioned challenge.

As far as the quote above, I have not "snapped" to any judgements. Nor is pichulon relevant to my view. I think I know my failings, and lack of observation is not one of them.
 

dcwrestlefan

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manners are good.

i try to adhere to rules which were strictly enforced on a bbs i belonged to a long time ago (we are talking 1200 baud modem days...haha). personal attacks simply were not tolerated. healthy debate, even heated debate was fine, but don't sling mud. it serves no purpose other than to turn people off not involved in the controversy and perhaps cause hurt feelings. not everyone is thick skinned. its bothersome to see two people go at it that you enjoy reading things from.

we are a different breed in the northeast and i think are less offended by rudeness and directness. flip side - the "smile at you while cutting you to bits behind your back" stuff was prevelant in houston when i lived there. couldn't stand it. there's a happy medium that works well. speak your piece or opinion and back it up with facts. i enjoy listening to alternative points of view. if my opnion has holes in it, it needs to either be changed or at least revisited.

"you are an asshole that licks horse cocks" is different from "your idea sucks and here is why". the gloves come off if someone is a blatant racist or homophobe because that opinion can translate into actions/laws that affect my life and others on a very personal level. being bothered constantly via PM by someone you don't want to talk to is also a good reason to get bitch slapped.

but yes stronzo, you are like a bull in a china shop sometimes. next time i am in a crime filled area, i'm taking you with me. ;-)

and lets remember, this isnt congress here (wish it was, we'd do a better job), its a board about COCKS. there's not any reason for shit to get overly serious.

my two cents. i probably owe change. DC.
 

B_Stronzo

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rawbone8 said:
I value many of your contributions and you do bring interesting topics to the fore.

Perhaps my egotism is involved, but I assure you that this is not done out of deliberate unkindness toward you or a desire to be rude for rudeness' sake. However conflict is inevitable since I didn't pm you and posted publically, though not to attempt to goad you maliciously. I thought I'd try to respectfully present my criticism in the open. Perhaps that hijacked the thread, but it's also an attempt to see whether directness and unveilled communication is worthwhile. You apparently see it as unmannered on my part.

I respect you enough to say it directly to you, and hope that emotions like anger don't prevent you from evaluating said criticism as a well intentioned challenge.

As far as the quote above, I have not "snapped" to any judgements. Nor is pichulon relevant to my view. I think I know my failings, and lack of observation is not one of them.

Ah good.

This is workable. Thanks for taking time to clarify rawbone. I've always liked how you post and read each one never skipping like I do with others.

As an aside rawbone - When Zora and I had trouble early-on we found (after huge back and forth on this board) that we had much in common (right down to our posting styles). The key difference we found had much to do with how we perceived courtesy versus "being honest". Also, I think we agreed that where I interpreted something as "unkind" she didn't, of necessity, always intend it as such. It was an interesting and learning time reconciling our disagreement.

Once we'd ironed all that out we found that reading each competent poster's posts with that poster in mind could do much to help eliminate acrimony on the board. In the wake of all that I've found I like her immensely and we share thoughts and ideas often in private.

Again- thanks for taking the time to clarify. It's truly helpful.

______________________________________________________________

**aside to wrestlefan.

I'll have you know that my mother's never once put away the Royal Crown Derby on my account!:wink:

Also wrestlefan the first part of your post is what I'm interested in seeing; how thoughtful and decent posters with obvious intelligence view the "art of posting". Thanks.
 

pichulon

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Stronzo said:
I think you mistake all posters for our late pichulon. The points of views and variety of opinions is as varied as the posters at this site rawbone. Before snapping to judgment why not try sitting back and using your powers of observation and perhaps you may just well be pleasantly surprised.... (that is unless you want conflict).

This is a very telling thread so far.

Thanks for the example. Your not so subtle way of attacking others and scattering your agenda against others is a trade mark.
Thanks for your example. You made the point.
 

B_Hickboy

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mercurialbliss said:
Those who are truly well-mannered do it for others, not themselves. I've met people, both online and IRL, who were despicable individuals hiding behind a facade of courtesy and politeness. What's often frustrating is the time it takes to unearth and expose the real individual underneath. Insincere behavior is insulting to one's intelligence and it infuriates me to no end. I don't prefer rudeness by any means, but everyone expresses themselves differently and I try to remain open to understanding others despite the differences. People who are insincere use their manners as a means of getting what they want from you and they make my skin crawl. People who are truly sincere will always have my respect.

Amen, sister. Preach on.
 

jeff black

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I am gonna chip in here.

I think manners are INCREDIBLY important, both in real life and on the internet. I try to be as polite and non-petty as I can on LPSG, and most of my posts are free of slanderous, or rude comments.

Being polite is Very important. One can get a point across without tossing names, or making comments that are unrequired.
 
T

that_other_guy

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i try to be polite but, in real life I use alot of cynicism and sarcasm as humor, and I forget that it dosen't usually translate (cause online you cant stress words or change pitch ... damn) well online. So, with the idea that I do that, if I ever feel offened i try to take it with a grain of salt b/c who know's, maybe it was just a joke :smile:
 

invisibleman

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Manners are nice. Manners don't necessarily get you what you want,
respect and/or mercy when given though. I am not speaking about LPSG. I am talking about in life when human interactions are involved.:smile:
 

GoneA

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Respectfulness is a rather effective tool when communicating with people - both in real life and on on-line. People who make valid observations and have relatively knowledgeable opinions deserved to be respected - and at the same time deserve a good argument when other people (whose opinions are just as intelligent) disagree.

No, arguments, though they have to potential to be, usually aren't amicable; but in that regard, the wheat and the tares grow together. I'm of the opinion that if our discussions really invoke that much anger or passion within us then it truly shows that we appreciate each other's differing stances on various subject matters.

To that end, clearly trolls do not need to be tolerated or afforded any more respect than that which they exercise.
 

dong20

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Manners count, sure they do but as a means not an end. What manners 'mean' is obviously subjective but so long as personal offence is not intended I don't have any real issue with how anything is said. If personal offence is intended then that's a whole other ball of wax. As MZ says, it's all about 'style'.

Here I feel similarly to JeffBlack, unless there is a need for abusive language, petty name calling as banter, for which LPSG is a gem, I don't see what place it has in an 'intelligent discussion', and most especially when it's used simply to to make a point, because, to me at least it just doesn't. It can show frustration and depth of feeling without doubt but it may also indicate limited ability though the these are not co-dependent.

To me telling someone to 'shut the fuck up' or name calling simply because they won't, or can't, respond to your argument in the way you want, or because they have said something to upset you is understandable but it also begs the question; is that the best you have? It doesn't inspire me to try and dig a little deeper, or try a new approach. When the poster is clearly intelligent and articulate, I don't know, it seems a waste.:rolleyes:

As MZ says this may be partly cultural, and in that vein and without wishing to polarise the issue, a question; are US citizens (here anyway) more ready to use verbal extremism than say, Europeans or Asians? From my perspective I would say they are but only just and is that merely cultural and thus unconscious. That's not a critisicm, I like directness but there isn't there surely a point where directness becomes offense or swearing merely tedious?

A little background (FWIW) I lived for a few years in a part of north Liverpool where talking 'posh' (I grew up in West Wirral, a 'posh' area it seems) or without 'Fuck','Ya wat', 'like','ya know', 'tosser' or some such thing being what seemed like every third word could result in a sound kicking, I was younger and less confident then so I learned to 'fit in' but it never sat comfortably with me. When I left I vowed that I would never speak 'that way' again. I'm sure I still could of course should the need arise, I just choose not to.

I see an interesting theme here about the apprarent 'insincerity' of being rude or insulting 'politely'. I wonder where that comes from, and again this is me thinking out loud so please don't bite my head off; is it a genuine belief that cursing is cleaner and more 'honest', or that it's simply more efficient or is it in part at least frustration that someone is unable to articulate anger without resorting to foul language? I'm sure all the above are true depending on the person and their level of anger.

rawbone8 said:
Disagreements are the heart of discussion and debate and occasionally lead to flaming. FLAMING erodes any real communication. But it can be very amusing since that's what many come here to enjoy — drama. Childish drama, not so much. It gets tedious....

Rawbone, that says it better than I just did.:smile:

BronxBombshell said:
In my opinion, manners are for when you mean them. I detest insincerety more than rudeness. Rudeness bothers me not because it's rude, but because I don't want the person to feel that way. However, once I see how they feel, I can easily make peace with their feelings and either leave them alone, or try to sway them. Or antagonize them. I am admittedly antagonistic under certain circumstances.

I agree, and there seems to be a subtle or sometimes overt undercurrent of politeness=insincerity. That's utter rubbish. I don't believe you subscribe to that and I agree that sometimes it is necessary to be antagonistic to try and provoke a response. I have to, I've done so myself.

I think there is a world of difference between passionate debate and attack dog mode. On LPSG without visual cues it's not always as easy to tell them apart. What did really bug me, and I don't know Stronzo if this is in part which provoked this thread? was the 'verbal lynching' of Pichulon. It could have been anyone, and probably me next but, asshole or not, to me it stood out as being unusually vindictive and callous. Maybe it's just me.:rolleyes:

In a sentence. My approach here is to post unto others as I would wish them to post unto me. If you don't like that; you can fuck right off.:tongue::wink:
 

Shelby

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Well BBS, after viewing your profile I must say I'd jump you in a heartbeat. Full bore. You look hot. Not that you'd let me of course on account of I'm probably not your type. lol

Is this bad internet manners?

Are internet fantasies/fucking around/playing wrong?

What's real?
 

emu

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i'm in agreement with rawbone and bronxy
stronzo does have a bit of a jekyl\hyde quality to his postings, but that can be attributed to his passion and sincerity which i would agree with bronx, i prefer honesty and sincerity, no matter how brutal.

here's my little addition...
there is a difference between "manners" and respecting someone's opinion

manners would be like acting in common courtesy to a complete stranger, allowing somone to speak without interupting them, allowing someone to have an opinion without lashing back in anger because you've taken a general statement personally or out of context. saying "please and thank you". etc.

respecting someone's opinion on these boards however is entirely different.
people have the right to say what they think and how they feel as long as you are not personally attacking them without a valid reason or just cause. it is also inappropriate, rude and disrespectful of a member to verbally abuse someone via PM and not bring out their issues with that person in the open forums. if you are too much of a pussy to face the music, then don't join the band.

healthy debating and discussion is necessary to help learn, teach and enlighten perspectives on life, there's just no need to resort to childish name calling and rude behavior. if you are an adult, act like one.

E
 

rawbone8

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Manners can be a cover for covert trolls. Meaning there are such individuals as "polite trolls" who exhibit most of the social niceties but incite useless conflict for the purpose of amusing themselves. They are rare and seem to exhibit a sort of passive aggressive personality, and are often quite clever. I wonder if Madam Zora is referring to those guys. The idiot/venomous trolls are easy to get rid of. The sly ones make it difficult sometimes.

Lex is right that this board is liberal in its code of behaviour, and we are lucky to have the forum.

We used to have an underage white power guy who had many tangles. A 15 yr old racial segegationist. He was invariably polite and bright and intelligent, posting often and to his credit engaged ably in debates that went on for pages. He got tempers boiling and there were several outraged members who wanted him banned, if I recall.

However, freedom of speech held and he was never banned for his racist views. He was under age and kicked out when the site changed owners. Who knows, maybe he will rejoin when he is older.

There are limits to behaviour on a privately held board like this. We free members are here at the pleasure of the owner. Manners just make it easier to co-exist.
 

Shelby

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emu said:
i'm in agreement with rawbone and bronxy
stronzo does have a bit of a jekyl\hyde quality to his postings, but that can be attributed to his passion and sincerity which i would agree with bronx, i prefer honesty and sincerity, no matter how brutal.

here's my little addition...
there is a difference between "manners" and respecting someone's opinion

manners would be like acting in common courtesy to a complete stranger, allowing somone to speak without interupting them, allowing someone to have an opinion without lashing back in anger because you've taken a general statement personally or out of context. saying "please and thank you". etc.

respecting someone's opinion on these boards however is entirely different.
people have the right to say what they think and how they feel as long as you are not personally attacking them without a valid reason or just cause. it is also inappropriate, rude and disrespectful of a member to verbally abuse someone via PM and not bring out their issues with that person in the open forums. if you are too much of a pussy to face the music, then don't join the band.

healthy debating and discussion is necessary to help learn, teach and enlighten perspectives on life, there's just no need to resort to childish name calling and rude behavior. if you are an adult, act like one.

E

Fuck that

lol
 

GoneA

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emu said:
manners would be like ... [list of examples]

respecting someone's opinion on these boards however is entirely different.

E

I agree, the two are in many respects both dissimilar and similar. I think respecting people and having manners are different to a certain extent; however, many of their qualities overlap.

A fine and jagged line, to say the very least.
 

ledroit

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I think manners count at a dinner table, in friendship, in personal situations. But I think of LPSG as my friendly neighborhood bar populated either by guys with big dicks or people who like them.

Bar behavior is a little different. I don't mind fights in a bar, since sometimes they clean the mind, and you wind up being best mates after wanting to rip the other guy's throat out.

The virtual equivalent is trickier--experiencing bar behavior on a site like this. You don't get to size up your opponent as easily. You can't catch the glimpse in his eye that means he wants to take you, while telling you in the same instant that he can't. You also can't tell when he or she is busting your balls, feeling stupid, testing limits, and all the rest. Truth be told, I don't think there is anything to replace a good local bar or pub. I think about half the problems in the US right now could be solved if 90% of its population did not live in isolated little suburban cocoons, work in isolated cubicles, and drive around in isolated little cars.

But back to this thread. I don't think the question is manners, it's about being manly. The manly thing to do is be fair. I don't think it is manly to pick a fight, or to turn somebody's venting into war. I don't mean to sound sexist, but I think men fight differently than women do, and as a man, I am interested in fighting or even carrying on with my buddies in a manly way. I do not give a damn about whether they are straight or gay.

If I am in a bar, I decide first whether I want to get into a fist fight or have a conversation. If it's a conversation, I think of macro and micro issues, and I move high enough on the scale to find something we can agree with, or a principle that I can use to pummel his ass into the ground. Then, instead of just pummelling his ass into the ground, I get him to agree with me on that big principle. Then I start to lead him backward, downward, until we get to the level where I see things differently. But if he has been decent, and followed me, he is going to see how I got from the big overhead value, which we agree on, to the smaller decision, where we disagree. If I am a good guy, and he is, we will leave the bar respecting each other, even if we don't agree on a choice or a game plan.

I think that is more interesting than "manners," although I tend to like balls, and would probabaly love Stronzie's. I tend to put a high premium on my mates, and this means giving them sufficient latitude to fuck up.
 

Lex

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rawbone8 said:
Manners can be a cover for covert trolls. Meaning there are such individuals as "polite trolls" who exhibit most of the social niceties but incite useless conflict for the purpose of amusing themselves. They are rare and seem to exhibit a sort of passive aggressive personality, and are often quite clever. I wonder if Madam Zora is referring to those guys. The idiot/venomous trolls are easy to get rid of. The sly ones make it difficult sometimes.

...
Exactly. Saying something nicely, does not mean that what you said was nice or that you are a nice person. And frankly, I'd rather (as Bronx alluded) someone just say it in plain language, than hide behind half-covert niceities.

I can think of a female member who had most male members wrapped around her finger while being extremely passive-aggressive to the female members (some would say nasty even). To the men (mostly straight) she was a wonderful, sweet person. To the women, she was a tool.

It's all about Point of View.

Also--a lot of people speak with passion. I appreciate that, whether or not I agree with it. I'd rather know upfront that someone MEANS it in the end for better or worse, than have to dig through syrup to find venom (or more syrup).

In the end, it matters little-people here are like people in real life. You will find all kinds and many people will not behave in ways you were taught or in ways you expect. In the end, rude and trollish behavior just makes me appreciate the more thoughtful posts by a lot of members.