at LPSG do "manners" count?

hypolimnas

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manners per se are nothing more than a manifestation of socialization

I like manners, and I like respect. I like interesting posts even more. I don't like rudeness because I find it boring.

There was a recent thread that really pissed me off. I began a reply.

Then some genius posted, "this thread is retarded", so there was nothing I could add.

It was a breath of fresh air, and a much more polite response than I could come up with.

I like your posts, they aren't boring. Thanks for all of them.
 

Hatched69

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Regardless of who's packing what in their trousers, an effort should be made to be civil to one another. It's difficult enough not to judge emotional content of a message correctly without the verbal inflection of a voice behind the words, much less if one misspoken or misdirected word escaped a fingertip. Wars have begun that way....
 

D_Sheffield Thongbynder

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Though a few threads have devolved into vitriolic namecalling, I have found that most people here are remarkably open to discussion, much more so than in my workplace. The debates can become heated (reminds me of British Parliament), but I notice that most posters return for more dialogue. There is as much value in honest expression as in empty civility.
 

DC_DEEP

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This is, as pointed out, a very complex set of issues. Manners (and etiquette, for that matter) are important. Unfortunately, since it has fallen out of vogue to teach children, from birth, these things, most people think of manners as saying "please" and "thank you," and etiquette as knowing which of those 14 different forks to use at dinner. Manners and etiquette go way far beyond those issues.

It is interesting to note the difference between "intended manners" by the poster, and the "perceived manners" of the reader. Granted, some threads/posts DO invite a few flames, and these sometimes deserve every bit of rancor that gets dished out. Most of the pissing contests that get engaged here, though, really have no place in this forum. Stupid is one thing, ignorance is another entirely. One post mentioned the need for a dictionary and thesaurus when reading some posts. Perhaps. But keep in mind that there is a vast difference between "dumb," "stupid," "inane," "ludicrous," "ignorant," and "retarded..." just as there is a vast difference between "smart," "intelligent," "informed," and "knowledgeable." I try not to use obscure words, but I do try to be concise and articulate - I don't always succeed, but my goal is to leave very little room for interpretation of my posts. I don't want anyone to have to guess at what I mean.

Golden rule is a good plan, and as pointed out by MadameZ, that does not mean simply "being nice." It means, very simply, if you treat someone in a particular manner, don't whine when they respond in kind. Why even bother to post or respond if you actually have nothing to say?

It is my nature to treat people with respect; I'm also usually fairly blunt and honest (for those of you who follow astrology, that's just the Saggitarian in me...) If someone proves to me over and over that they don't deserve respect, I may adjust my MO to better suit the situation.

In most cases, if you post an opposing view to a subject, and you post in an articulate, well-worded, (even documented) manner, you are likely to get well-reasoned responses to your post. If you jump in and fling a few nasty names, or abrasively dissent without backing debate, you are likely to get flamed. Remember, don't whine when someone responds in kind.
 

B_Stronzo

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madame_zora said:
Stronzo, you sure start some thought-provoking topics, and this one is no exception. I'm glad a few people made mention of me, because your threads get read, and I have an opportunity to explain my viewpoint here.
Thanks. Yours is an opinion I especially value on this topic since we've tackled it personally you and I and what the term actually means to each of us.

That leads me to utter and complete agreement with the following end piece to your good post here (which I apologise for abbreviating):

I also follow the golden rule, although very few people understand that. They think the golden rule means to "be nice like me", but it does not. It means to treat others the way you'd want to be treated, and that I do.

This is what I'd ask for from anyone responding to me too.

**an aside:

I've seen (though it was not asked by me for them to do so) several feel the need to give their take on my style.

In truth - I've only seen myself as the 'tearing a new arse-hole' type when someone is an overt homophobe or a "hater" of any description. Then the gloves come off and I'll mud wrestle without hesitation. I think you and I zora share that passion.

I was once unnecessariy unkind to a poster I now like very much and I've apologised to him in earnest. Beyond that I stand behind all unresolved situations I endure on this board.
 

bree

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I have always used good manners... It in breed into us at a young age in Texas... Yes of course there are people who use it for bad... I'm a very positve person and try to say something nice as much as I can.. I feel we as human beings we choose to be in bad mood, or good, nice or ugly.. To help when someone has fallen are good manners...You don't have to like the person I try to learn from the postive side of life and views of others even if not the same as my own make this life a colorful and exciting world... The bottom line is: You choose how to live your life... Attitude after all is everything
 

ClaireTalon

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LPSG, or the rest of the internet, is not off-manners. Even though this is a very anonymous media and there's less hesitating to get rude with each other since your partners are above all only a text, or maybe a photo, it shouldn't come so far that you abandon every principle of social interaction. Be polite!

When the internet became the newest of the mass media and a new form of communication, there were many questions of how to address others, what formulations should be chosen if you write a newsgroup contribution or an email, and many more of these problems. I for myself chose the way of writing e-mail and contributions like I was writing a usual letter: Formal to unknown persons, less formal to closer people. So far, I've not regretted that, even though some call it old fashioned to write with punctuation, case sensitivity, etc.

In some way, us English talkers can be very glad that we only have one form of address, "You" for both formal and informal writing. The difference would be greater if we, like the french had one for each. But still, sometimes I think the informal or formal meaning can be read between the lines, it's like I hear the person read the letter to me. Damn feeling, once again.
 

D_Humper E Bogart

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I remember Chimera. I hate him..do not cuss my PATRIOTISM! Not that I wanted him banned though, but I'm probably overtly judgemental and grudging, as well as neutral to the point of double-fascist, over-analytical, conceited, narcissistic, brash, heartless and over-emotional.

That seems to cover my better qualities. :wink:
 

Matthew

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Stronzo said:
please don't...

Not to worry, I was only "cowering" because Heather stands 10 feet tall in front of her monitor.:rolleyes: When I decide it's time for me to share what I think, it's not often a problem.

As far as "manners" go, I prefer directness. Being polite is fine, just so long as it's sincerely meant. If not, don't bother on my account because I sure won't on yours.

I also agree with those who have said basically that you should not communicate in a harsher tone than you expect to receive in return. The only problem with that is it depends completely on one's own subjective perception of self. And some people have a seemingly infinite capacity to believe their own shit doesn't stink.
 

dong20

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It's interesting to see what seems to be a perception by some, to some degree at least that politeness is inherently less a virtue than a subterfuge and directness, even when coarse or brutally delivered is inherently more sincere and honest and thus preferable.

Where is the logic in that? Can a person not be insincere in directness just as easily as politeness. What we see here are persona, based to varying degrees on those real people behind them, so, does it not seem obvious that some of those very folk who pride themselves on their good clean 'honest' directness may be just as insincere as those that adopt a different style?

Seems obvious to me but I don't see much recognition of that possibilty in the posts so far. I'm not talking about the obvious trolls, they are simply irrelevant in this context. Hence the question.:smile:
 

Matthew

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dong20 said:
It's interesting to see what seems to be a perception by some, to some degree at least that politeness is inherently less a virtue than a subterfuge and directness, even when coarse or brutally delivered is inherently more sincere and honest and thus preferable.

Can a person not be insincere in directness just as easily as politeness. What we see here are persona, based to varying degrees on those real people behind them, so, does it not seem obvious that some of those very folk who pride themselves on their good clean 'honest' directness may be just as insincere as those that adopt a different style?

Well, speaking for myself, I think directness and sincerity go hand in hand, so my answer to your question would be no. That said, I do think being polite is virtue when it is sincere, and only then.
 

rawbone8

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dong20 said:
It's interesting to see what seems to be a perception by some, to some degree at least that politeness is inherently less a virtue than a subterfuge and directness, even when coarse or brutally delivered is inherently more sincere and honest and thus preferable.

Where is the logic in that? Can a person not be insincere in directness just as easily as politeness. What we see here are persona, based to varying degrees on those real people behind them, so, does it not seem obvious that some of those very folk who pride themselves on their good clean 'honest' directness may be just as insincere as those that adopt a different style?

Seems obvious to me but I don't see much recognition of that possibilty in the posts so far. I'm not talking about the obvious trolls, they are simply irrelevant in this context. Hence the question.:smile:
Dong20 you happen to be a prime example of someone who can compose a direct message powerfully with politeness intact. I find your posts very clearly articulated and respectful of your audience, and they deliver your view with clarity. I never doubt your sincerity. I admire your skill with language and your thoughtful compassionate approach.

"Bluntness" or "honesty in all its rawness" is another mode of expressing ideas. Over the top sarcastic, contemptuous or condescending attidudes implicit in the tone or mode of expression of some messages, are intended to communicate to the addressee, and especially to the forum audience witnessing the exchange, the poster's strong opinion of the idea being attacked or many times the contempt for the addressee. So to me, it's braggadocio posturing. It doesn't make the ideas any more compelling, in my opinion.

That can indeed be dishonest if it is done in a hypocritical way.
 

Lex

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Matthew said:
Well, speaking for myself, I think directness and sincerity go hand in hand, so my answer to your question would be no. That said, I do think being polite is virtue when it is sincere, and only then.

I agree with these statements.

I don't see any value in someone pretending to be nice when they don't really mean it. I value this most in my friendships. I do not subscribe to a paradigm where friends always agree and can not challenge each other. On the contrary, I want my friends to be honest with me and I expect them to be prepared to receive my friendship as such and reciprocate it as well.

Anything less can never amount to true friendship. Maybe "veiled manners" as someone else pointed out--but not much more. IMHO.
 

DC_DEEP

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Lex said:
Anything less can never amount to true friendship. Maybe "veiled manners" as someone else pointed out--but not much more. IMHO.
I'll let you be the judge, Lex... my manners are pretty much the same in person in real life as they are online, right? Polite, but firm and confident, always the gentleman? I really am not skilled enough to be a different person online than I am in person.
 

naughty

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Oh yeah?

Well, come over here now and let me pluck your beautifully polished pate! LOL! Seriously, I do appreciate that in you, Lex.I have found that when we've disagreed it wasnt always comfortable, but we did eventually find a way to respect one another's differing views.






Lex said:
I agree with these statements.

I don't see any value in someone pretending to be nice when they don't really mean it. I value this most in my friendships. I do not subscribe to a paradigm where friends always agree and can not challenge each other. On the contrary, I want my friends to be honest with me and I expect them to be prepared to receive my friendship as such and reciprocate it as well.

Anything less can never amount to true friendship. Maybe "veiled manners" as someone else pointed out--but not much more. IMHO.
 

dong20

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Matthew said:
Well, speaking for myself, I think directness and sincerity go hand in hand, so my answer to your question would be no. That said, I do think being polite is virtue when it is sincere, and only then.

I agree with your second sentence but not your first. I agree that sincerity and directness can go hand in hand but not that it's necessarily so. You think someone who is direct is automatically sincere? Well, I suppose it comes down to how you define directness and sincerity.

Suppose I said I thought that all your other posts were steaming piles of crap and flawed to the nth degree and you are entirely wrong in everything view you post. Well, I'd say that was pretty direct but also entirely insincere becuase I don't believe that.

Another example; Bush and Blair were pretty direct in their condemnation of Saddam Hussein and their sure knowledge that he was about to unleash hellfire on anyone and everyone within range, and that they had incontravertable proof. Are you seriously suggesting they were being sincere when they did so? I suspect not but it seems rather too many did.:rolleyes:

Do you see my point? One can only truly infer sincerity by balancing what's being said against our perception of who's saying it, not merely by how it's being said.
 

dong20

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Lex said:
...I don't see any value in someone pretending to be nice when they don't really mean it. I value this most in my friendships. I do not subscribe to a paradigm where friends always agree and can not challenge each other. On the contrary, I want my friends to be honest with me and I expect them to be prepared to receive my friendship as such and reciprocate it as well.

I agree with you, though I don't recall myself or anyone suggesting being polite precluded disagreements whether between friends or strangers nor would I subscribe to such a ridiculous philosophy.:confused:

If we can't fight tooth and nail and be honest with our friends and then make up over a beer, what's the point in calling them friends when they're clearly not. But I don't think that was really the issue.:rolleyes:
 

madame_zora

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I love these kinds of introspective threads because they give us the opportunity to see inside each other's thought processes, and hopefully lead to a better understanding of where a particular poster is coming from.

For me, I am often speaking to the "invisible audience" as much as the person to whom I am speaking directly. I don't think anyone who has known me long or well will doubt my sincerity, even though they may not agree with my choice of posting style. That's okay- it's me, not you. Nothing I say personally is a reflection on what anyone else thinks or feels. On the rare occasion that I have something to say as a moderator, and not just another member of the board, it will be clearly preceeded by the words "I am speaking as a moderator", and it will be as polite as I am capable of phrasing it. Under all other circumstances, I'm just Jana- fellow member of lpsg, and anyone is free to challenge my words or thoughts in whatever manner they see fit.

Once again, for me, it would be disingenuous to "be polite" when I'm angry. By the same token, I respect that there are those for whom this is their preferred way of expression, and it would be just as false for them to use harsh words to express themselves. The more we know about each other, the deeper our understanding and therefore our ability to communicate.

I appreciate in sincerity everyone who has posted here, that we may know each other better. You guys rock.