at LPSG do "manners" count?

B_Stronzo

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madame_zora said:
I love these kinds of introspective threads because they give us the opportunity to see inside each other's thought processes, and hopefully lead to a better understanding of where a particular poster is coming from.

I appreciate in sincerity everyone who has posted here, that we may know each other better. You guys rock.

So do I.

It's an attempt, should we all care to pay careful attention, to help us all know one another better in other threads. And in the process I can honestly say that I'm more aware of the styles of easily 5 prominent posters here than I was prior to reading through the whole thread. Plus I think I was able to mend an old wound with our pal DC. "It's a good thing".:smile:

With such strong personalities here (and unquestionable intelligence) it's critical we all know the other's intent. Manners for me is a first cousin to kindness whereas rudeness is a sibling to malicious intent.

To illustrate my point I still feel a bit uneasy about the gang mentality used toward pichulon and our "once upon a time" fellow poster Webster. In the former case I feel less sad about it since he was/is so relentless. With Webster I think he would have eventually come around. And in his case I think it was a pity he was so ostracized. I miss him. He had a lovely "odd duck" quality to him that reminded me of a guy named Wendell who was lovely and alone and adorable standing there with his gin and tonic a decade ago at the biggest gay bar in Boston. But Wendell had a heart of gold. Trouble is no one took the time to know him. When I think of Webster I see Wendell's face in my mind's eye.

Today I've had an off-again on-again interesting pm conversation with a fellow poster who's quite enlightened in his observational take. He's someone with whom I've never chatted privately until today. He first pmed me this morning to discuss not only this thread but also one which became very heated a short while back. His perspective has given me immense insight.

What I've gleaned from our conversation is the following:

(Admittedly off-topic) I think it prudent we all guard against developing gang mentality when the negative consensus begins to rise on this board lest we all become precisely guilty of what we so vehemently decry in those we seek to condemn or squelch. Recently I did this with pichulon. Much as I dislike the fellow's statements I think he hasn't a clue why most find him so offensive and I wish I'd simply stopped posting to him long before I did. I know his confusion goes on as recently as the last time I clicked onto this board since I have pm proof. So what's the point then? Have we accomplished something by our unkindness? I say we haven't. I think we just come off looking like a bunch of arrogant bullies.

In my opinion it's an easy trap to fall into (this gang thing) and I'm seeing more and more of it lately. And before I see this place become "clique central". I'll happily remain marginalized by purpose.

If simply giving the benefit of the doubt is a lesson I can take from this thread then I take it willingly. I know enough personally about being unpopular on this board to recognize how uncomfortable it can be to be targeted as the "board baddie". It has all the hallmarks of a rather vile playground phenomenon and I can say without question that dong20 has handled every situation (when he went against the board "grain") with reason and civility no matter how much he may have been taken to task.

What's most telling to me is that I read his responses every time while other's who are more direct and inflammatory I often skip by.

I feel we can all learn from his level-headed approach. If those are "manners"... I like 'em. Yup I do. Because the fellow's genuine. We can pick apart wheter or not the manners are "genuine" or "false" all we like but I suspect the bulk of us know the difference. I know I'll never reach his level of impartial posting but I'm happy someone in here is of his caliber since he's an example for the rest of us.

We're all part of the larger "recipe" in this thing folks. And as the saying goes "it'd be a damned boring existence if we were all just alike". So I'd simply ask that the level of kindness be raised a level or two when we take issue with what someone's written.

It's just plain exhausting to stoop to the level of calling names. I'd rather never feel the need to do it again.
 

Lex

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DC_DEEP said:
I'll let you be the judge, Lex... my manners are pretty much the same in person in real life as they are online, right? Polite, but firm and confident, always the gentleman? I really am not skilled enough to be a different person online than I am in person.

You are the same. Really. The only real difference was that you kept pawing and kissing me (which you never do online). I like to think that I come off the same as well. Who knows?

naughty said:
Seriously, I do appreciate that in you, Lex.I have found that when we've disagreed it wasnt always comfortable, but we did eventually find a way to respect one another's differing views.

I pleased that you do appreciate it. I am me, all the time--for better or worse. I am a well mannered person but I do think that honesty and up frontness is best. I also pride myself on being an honest peron. I find it nigh imnpossible to be fake or disingenuous. I can't fake liking someone or being nice to someone I think is a tool. That might be "well mannered" to some, but its fake to me--and being fake is worse than being honest, regardless of how it is gift wrapped.

dong20 said:
I agree with you, though I don't recall myself or anyone suggesting being polite precluded disagreements whether between friends or strangers nor would I subscribe to such a ridiculous philosophy.:confused:

If we can't fight tooth and nail and be honest with our friends and then make up over a beer, what's the point in calling them friends when they're clearly not. But I don't think that was really the issue.:rolleyes:

Dong, I know you did not say that. I was simply extrapolating the idea of manners to their place in inter-personal realtionships and various friendships.

If I can't trust my friends and comrades to call me on my shit (and I on theirs) who can I trust?
 

Matthew

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dong20 said:
I agree with your second sentence but not your first. I agree that sincerity and directness can go hand in hand but not that it's necessarily so. You think someone who is direct is automatically sincere? Well, I suppose it comes down to how you define directness and sincerity.

Suppose I said I thought that all your other posts were steaming piles of crap and flawed to the nth degree and you are entirely wrong in everything view you post. Well, I'd say that was pretty direct but also entirely insincere becuase I don't believe that.

Another example; Bush and Blair were pretty direct in their condemnation of Saddam Hussein and their sure knowledge that he was about to unleash hellfire on anyone and everyone within range, and that they had incontravertable proof. Are you seriously suggesting they were being sincere when they did so? I suspect not but it seems rather too many did.:rolleyes:

Do you see my point? One can only truly infer sincerity by balancing what's being said against our perception of who's saying it, not merely by how it's being said.

I do see what you're saying. The first example to me tends toward the hypothetical, but the second obviously did happen -- and as most of us realize now, they were lying. I guess it's a question of semantics because I don't think of lying as being direct. Does being direct to you imply being hostile? For me, it merely means being straightforward, and, to clarify based on your examples, it also means being honest.
 

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Matthew said:
I do see what you're saying. The first example to me tends toward the hypothetical, but the second obviously did happen -- and as most of us realize now, they were lying. I guess it's a question of semantics because I don't think of lying as being direct. Does being direct to you imply being hostile? For me, it merely means being straightforward, and, to clarify based on your examples, it also means being honest.

No, I don't see being direct as being hostile at all, I see it as being direct as I see straightforward as being just that. They can all be combined; as straighforward direct hostility, per parts of the 'Pichuhlon' thread. I try to be direct, or at least as direct as I can be and avoid ambiguity, but I also hope to be, for the want of a better word, decent or at least considered. I see no contradiction there but that's just me.

To me; directness does not equal honesty any more that politeness equals dishonesty. One could post with hostile intent but use polite language (which I think is the core issue here), or be direct and 'rude' yet be entirely dishonest (or honest) in both cases. Both are equally 'valid' styles of doing so to me.

I don't believe there are any absolutes here, only perception and as you say semantics. I understand why the former example could irritate many people more, it's a personal 'thing' but in the final analysis if both are dishonest what does it really matter?

In terms of 'delivery'; you may see lying as 'incompatible' with directness I make no such distinction, to me, lying is lying however it's delivered though if I'm going to be lied to I'd prefer the direct approach myself.:smile:

If someone is telling the truth, for the most part I could care less how they do it. The only reason I even raised the issue at all was in relation to the gender thread. I've never taken issue with individual posting styles here (once I got to work them out anyway) and even in this instance it wasn't about 'manners' so much as what seemed like gang thuggery. This thread has just allowed some of us to share our views on this issue and that has to be a good thing yes?
 

MASSIVEPKGO_CHUCK

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My own personal perspective on manners is that is that it just that;perspective.

Don't get me wrong. Alot of Past members have in displaying the most deplorable manners ever. Myself, I try, and I say try, to responde to everything tactfully, diplomatically and without getting belligerent.
 

DC_DEEP

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Lex said:
You are the same. Really. The only real difference was that you kept pawing and kissing me (which you never do online). I like to think that I come off the same as well. Who knows?
Well, gee, thanks Lex. I do appreciate you shoring up my (naughty) reputation, but in the interest of honesty, I really just hugged you (not really a pawing, was it?) and a (fairly) brotherly kiss. Did I really keep kissing you? Maybe I lost count of the beers...
 

GoneA

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Lex said:
I don't see any value in someone pretending to be nice when they don't really mean it. I value this most in my friendships.
Not that I *personally* have encountered this problem on the board, but being fake boils my blood. Please, just come out and say what you mean and speak the way feel. Why go through a song and a dance?

However, as one poster* put it a little while back, I don't ever really get upset with the words and action of people on this board ... or when communicating with anyone on this type of medium. The reason: who honestly can say they "know you personally". Don't you think it would be a little reckless to expect someone on this board, where the only connection you have with them is through the internet, to respect you the same way your best friend would?

* The poster was Matthew ... my undercover lover.
 

Lex

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GoneA said:
... Don't you think it would be a little reckless to expect someone on this board, where the only connection you have with them is through the internet, to respect you the same way your best friend would?

...

Glaring examples abound (here and elsewhere).
 

pichulon

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Seems like a wild party is long gone, and, all we have is the memories. I hope we all learnt something out of this situation. Let's leave behind the name calling, the pack mentality, the flared tempers. Let's understand each other better, lets make the effort to do it. Lets take the next step towards accepting others. We can agree to disagree, that is a victory and never a loss. Lets turn this past argument into a learning experience. On my part, I will do my best to understand others, to accept others, and, to control myself, even in adverse situations, renouncing to name calling by all means. There could be a reason that would set a person to blow up and say all kinds of things that he might regret saying at a later time, but that does not constitute an excuse, only an explanation.
It is not what we said, it is about what we are going to with the experience, based on the lessons that each of us acquired.
All of us ( involved )saw the worse in ourselves,let's show what the best in ourselves is all about.

Pichulon. ( not pichkatu) :rolleyes:
 

DC_DEEP

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Thanks, pichulon. Just keep in mind that you don't have to "accept" to "respect." I don't remember if it was in an open post or an IM, but seems like I mentioned to you before that you do post some good, thought-provoking stuff sometimes, then click on another thread and post something that just makes me roll my eyes.

Everyone, understand: yes, this is the internet; yes, it is mostly anonymous; yes, some people online are not what they appear to be... but on this particular forum, we have formed a community, those of us who have been here for a while "agree" to a certain standard of decorum, and most of us do not appreciate anyone trying to knock over the cornerstone. It is not necessarily a "gang-thang" or "herd mentality", but when someone is intentionally trying to be disruptive, many individuals WILL want/try to weed them out.
 

Matthew

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GoneA said:
* The poster was Matthew ... my undercover lover.

Hey ... come back under the covers!

You hadn't finished teaching me manners.
 

madame_zora

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pichulon said:
Seems like a wild party is long gone, and, all we have is the memories. I hope we all learnt something out of this situation. Let's leave behind the name calling, the pack mentality, the flared tempers. Let's understand each other better, lets make the effort to do it. Lets take the next step towards accepting others. We can agree to disagree, that is a victory and never a loss. Lets turn this past argument into a learning experience. On my part, I will do my best to understand others, to accept others, and, to control myself, even in adverse situations, renouncing to name calling by all means. There could be a reason that would set a person to blow up and say all kinds of things that he might regret saying at a later time, but that does not constitute an excuse, only an explanation.
It is not what we said, it is about what we are going to with the experience, based on the lessons that each of us acquired.
All of us ( involved )saw the worse in ourselves,let's show what the best in ourselves is all about.

Pichulon. ( not pichkatu) :rolleyes:


I sent you a very long and detailed PM to try to reach a clearer understanding, and you said you would respond. Now I see this little blurb, and I must tell you I see your effort as insincere.

The reason you had a problem was because YOU come to the site brand new and presumed to speak for peole you don't know, then got mad when we didn't react the way YOU thought we should. Shame on you. Speak for yourself, and you'll make friends with similar thinking people.

If someone treats me rudely in their way, I'll return that behavior in my way. That's open discourse, and that's what I'm defending- everyone's right to speak in the manner of their own choosing. You perceived a gang mentality when in fact, we have a published Terms Of Service discussing this point. I suggest you, and anyone else who is confused familiarise yourselves with it so as to aviod further confusion. I doubt any lesson has been learned.
 

dongalong

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Stronzo said:
With such strong personalities here (and unquestionable intelligence) it's critical we all know the other's intent. Manners for me is a first cousin to kindness whereas rudeness is a sibling to malicious intent.

Please Stronzo! You've become toooo well mannered recently! It isn't worthy of your pseudo!

Can't you just save your good manners for the moments when they will give strength to your argument?

Some of your bitchy comments were hilarious and I miss them.

It must be hard for you to hold back sometimes. I say, LET RIP when the pressure inside your mind is too much!

vai, vai Stronzo!