At stake is Western civilization !?

Discussion in 'Et Cetera, Et Cetera' started by lacsap1, Mar 14, 2004.

  1. lacsap1

    lacsap1 New Member

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    Fundamentalist Islam is not a race or an ethnicity; it is an ideology. Its critics are not racists, any more than critics of Nazi or Stalinist ideology are racists. And as an ideology, furthermore, Islamic fundamentalism is something that people can be drawn away from.

    For various reasons, Western European Muslims are more likely than their American counterparts to live in tightly knit religious communities, to adhere to a narrow fundamentalist faith, and to resist integration into mainstream society. The distance between mainstream society and the Muslim subculture can be especially striking in Western Europe, from Spain to France and the Netherlands to the countries of Scandinavia.

    The distance I speak of is certainly striking in Amsterdam, where I life and grew accustomed to the sight of women in chadors pushing baby carriages past shops with signs in Arabic. Most people of non-Dutch origin were fundamentalist Muslims, and most, even after years or decades in the Netherlands, remained largely unintegrated. The attitudes of Dutch officialdom, and of the Dutch generally, hadn’t helped: although in America the U.S.-born children of immigrants are American citizens, in the Netherlands the Dutch-born children of immigrants are called "second-generation immigrants." (The same is true in the rest of Europe like Germany or France, where even "third-generation immigrants"–and, yes, they do use that term–aren’t automatically entitled to citizenship.) In Amsterdam I feel almost like two different worlds. Like me, the native Dutch, whose public schools teach children to take for granted the full equality of men and women and to view sexual orientation as a matter of indifference, I feel safe and accepted. Yet many Muslim youngsters in the Netherlands attend private Islamic academies (many of which receive subsidies from the Dutch state as well as from the governments of one or more Islamic countries). These schools reinforce the Koran-based sexual morality learned at home–one that allows polygamy (for men), forced marriage, that prescribes severe penalties for females and homosexuals. Let it not be forgotten, after all, how countries ruled by Koranic law treat their homosexual citizens. It was hardly surprising, then, that in the Netherlands, a country with same-sex marriage and legally regulated prostitution, there was cultural friction between natives and the Muslim community. Yet few Dutch people discussed this friction openly. To do so, it appeared, was taboo.

    In English we have a word for fear of foreigners: xenophobia. It is a rare word, seldom seen in print, almost never actually spoken, and probably unfamiliar to most English speakers. Most of the languages of northern Europe have words that mean the same thing. These words are frequently used in conversation and are familiar to virtually every native speaker and always used for one group only; anti-Western fundamentalistic Muslims.

    The Netherlands doesn’t accept anti-Western fundamentalistic attitudes from Muslims. In the eyes of most Dutch people, integration means adapting to a humanistic tradition, to the separation between church and state, and distancing oneself from the norms and values of one’s motherland. The Dutch, perhaps the most liberal people on the planet, have finally faced a crucially important fact: that there is nothing at all liberal about allowing one’s reluctance to criticize another person’s religion to trump one’s dedication to individual liberty, human dignity, and equal rights.

    As for those who, after a period in the West, make it obvious that they are unwilling or unable to adapt, they must be sent home and replaced by deserving individuals who can adapt. This may appear extreme, but there is no reasonable alternative. For at stake in all this, ultimately, are the basic freedoms of all Westerners–not only women and homosexuals, but everyone, including Muslims and former Muslims who wish to live in a place where they can be themselves. At stake, indeed, is Western civilization.

    Tolerance for intolerance is not tolerance at all.
     
  2. Imported

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    Doubtless_Mouse: Lacsap1 - if I understand you, you are saying get with the program or go home? I believe this is what your post refers to at the end when you say, "As for those who, after a period in the West, make it obvious that they are unwilling or unable to adapt, they must be sent home and replaced by deserving individuals who can adapt."

    How does this stand in face of religous freedom. I was raised in the Us, and I grew up in a religion that preached about keeping oneself seperate from the world. We interacted with society, but our beliefs held us at a distance. We were one of the religions that would let a child die rather than accpet a blood transfusion, we didn't celebrate the traditional holidays, the traditional view of homosexuality was that is was a sin, going against Gods will and word. The people I practiced this religion with would never willing stop practicing the rites and customs of their church because is was felt to be non-adaptive. in case you are wondering I grew up as a Jehova's witness, not some fundimentalist but different non-the-less.

    In the US, the first amendment reads, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;" I am unfamilar with the Netherlands constitution, but I imagine a portion of it speaks to the same basic principle of freedom of religion. How do you weigh this right with idea of conformity? If my religion tells me to keep myself apart from the rest of world, and the country I live in tells me it is my right to pratice my religion, how to you find a means to expell them because they don't adapt and pick up social norms?

    Likewise, where do you draw the line? At what point do you say one group is and one group is not adapting? Who would make the decision? Is the entire group found to be lacking or just the individual?

    Please keep in mind, I am no bible thumper, I am no longer what one would even call religous, I no longer attend any orginized chruch, hell lately I consider myself more an Atheist than anything, but I still believe people should have the right to worship as they see fit (within certain boundries). I truly believe your rights stop when they start to interfer with the right of others or cause harm to those who can't take care of themselves (i.e. children), but unless they meet a certain criteria, people still have this right. I undertand your concern, we spout platitudes about freedom and equality yet we still have within our midst groups who deny freedom and equality to certain portions of the population and they defend their decisions with the unalienable right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. but this non-withstanding, they do and should have the right to practice their religion as they see fit.

    Will add more later, this is a good topic, and one I have debated many times. If I find some of my papers, I will try to post somethem as well.
     
  3. Imported

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    Javierdude22: I am pretty sure Lacsap holds freedom of religion in high appraisal. What he is expressing though, I think, is a powerlessness we Dutch have been feeling for quite some time towards our (relatively large) Arab population.

    To put it shortly: We have laws to protect their rights, but we dont seem to have firm laws that outline their DUTIES of being a Dutch citizen.

    Examples: A way too large part of the arab population doesnt know Dutch. Therefore, since we have a government without balls, a spine, or well...brains, our law now says certain official documentation should be in Turkish and Arab as well...HELLO!...since when do we speak Arab in Holland?

    Next: Ya know what happened here in Holland when the Twin Towers collapsed and 2800 people lost their lives? A (not large, but conspicuous) part of the Morrocan population went to the streets and started cheering and rejoicing over this. The Dutch population went nuts and asked the police to do something about it....they were powerless they said...

    Next: Recently a report came out that over half of the prison population is an immigrant, of which a large part Arab. Recently several useless murders have occurred in Holland, by young Morrocans. They beat up a woman to death who called them names, and killed a kid who said something about one of them knocking over an old woman. These cases followed eachother up in a short period, so it becomes a soar sight.

    With the attacks in Spain, again rejoicing from a part of the Arab population. Recently a news network interviewed a disguised Muslim radical, who stated they have large operations from Holland cause the police do not persecue them as they do in France or Spain.

    I would hereby like to call for a Parliamentary Investigation to look for our Cabinets balls...

    Because that is the frustration the ENTIRE Dutch population is feeling. We hear Arab in trams, busses, schools, and hear of high crimes, and a rather low involvement in the job-scene.

    Thats whats calling for the discussion to oust these people who fail to intergrate and happily state they dont WANT to intergrate...the sad thing is we have no laws to do anything about this. Our government always wants to be the good kid in school, nice, cleancut...ya know...the boy next door type....that makes you yawn once it opens its mouth and makes you wanna poke your eyes out with a blunt stick when it talks for 5 minutes...that boy next door type..

    Yeah...Im frustrated...

    I do acknowledge we cannot throw out anyone who has been naturalized but still doesnt speak our language...However...we can make sure that anyone who fails to intergrate in the future is put on the next train to Timboektoe..and not after 5 more tries...but immediately...

    Or else, we might actually get into trouble...as a society...
     
  4. Imported

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    tomarctus: lasacp and javierdude,
    You put into words my deep concerns. I worry for my many friends in the Netherlands, as well as throughout Europe.
    In California we have a different situation with immigrants, both legal and illegal. Many new arrivals speak only Spanish and cause mono-lingual Californians much stress. However, we and they are so close culturally that the "problem" will only be temporary. The language issue will resolve so that at least the southwest USA will finally be bilingual. As long as there remain problems in Mexico and Central America, though, the opportunity to better one's life will continue to attract people to California. I only mention this because we work ourselves into a tizzy over the eventual integration of our nearly identical societies while Europeans, western and eastern, face real and terrifying threats.
    For 30 years I built pipe organs in 17th and 18th century style, mostly North German, but one organ I built is in Zaragoza style. I, therefore, needed to do research on the originals. I made many friends and connections. The oldest playing organs I studied were built in the 1470's, which means they are 530+ years old. I fear for this rich tradition, even though it continues in the USA and elsewhere. Fundamentalists have no use for fine art or culture.
    I don't agree with my government's positions these days, but, since the world is topsy-turvy, I can't tell who is right. One interesting statement came out of Washington DC recently lately. They said they wanted to make sure the battle against the the terrorists was fought on their own soil, not in Europe or the USA. If this is true, I support that. Yes, I'm selfish. I want my friends and family to be spared direct conflict forever. I am sad for the innocent people in terrorist countries who suffer, but not sad enough for another war in Europe or a new one in the USA. Am I horrible for thinking this?
     
  5. lacsap1

    lacsap1 New Member

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    [quote author=Doubtless_Mouse link=board=99;num=1079308787;start=0#1 date=03/15/04 at 00:45:19]
    How does this stand in face of religous freedom
    [/quote]

    Mouse, the Dutch constitution, like all other Western European countries have an very important law on this matter; separation of church and state

    In today's increasingly Islamicized Europe, many people are slowly realizing that the behavior of large segments of Europe's Muslim population represents the antithesis of their politically correct ideals and values.

    Like new controversial laws, in Belgium and France, to ban the veil in public schools and city/state official offices for Muslimas. It's not normal that in certain parts of Europe there are more women in veils than on the streets of Algiers, Istanbul or Casablanca. Don't see this as a ban on Muslim religon but protection of ties Muslimas. The hijab is only one aspect of women's status in Islam that Europeans find troubling. Recently, feminist and other organizations in Europe have also taken a decisive stand against female circumcision, a gruesome practice occurring with increased frequency in the West as its third-world population grows.

    Ties days not just European conservative parties are making ties laws but also Europe's Lefties shares ties aspects of the odds in Islam has like gay rights, women's rights, abortion rights, multiculturalism, separation of church and state, interfaith dialogue and opposition to the death penalty, all perennial Leftist causes, are opposed by an overwhelming number of Europe's Muslim immigrants, sometimes brutally so.

    Once we had a Dutch politician Pim Fortuyn, hailed from the Dutch city of Rotterdam, where roughly half the residents are foreign born and many are Muslim. Fortuyn feared that due to its unwillingness to assimilate, Holland's growing Muslim population (which currently comprises almost ten percent of the Dutch population), would undermine traditional Dutch values. Fortuyn, who was openly gay, also worried that Islam's aversion to homosexuality would clash with Holland's liberal attitude toward gays. Whereas Fortuyn was once branded a "fascist" by the European media, his views are now gaining mainstream acceptance.

    Based on our Western world, Prof. Dr. Fortuyn stated that the Islamic culture is backward culture, and that is true in a way. You can see that if you compare the Islamic world with the modern Western World and is hostile to gays and women’s rights and even the basic values of a European democracy.

    For many of Europe's Muslims, the most pressing "enemy" is not the U.S., Israel or capitalism, but the liberal Western attitude, secularized way of life practiced by their "infidel" hosts.

    Islam as a religion can’t change. But maybe the people can evolve towards another kind of light Islam. It’s not Islam that changes, but it’s Muslims that have to change.

    There is a crisis in European culture, a lack of vision. How to treat Muslims, how to deal with it I don't know.




     
  6. Imported

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    Ineligible: I find this a very interesting thread, dealing with a difficult issue thoughtfully, in the best LPSG style. Indeed it is difficult to decide what fundamental values should be required of all people in a nation, and where, conversely, diversity should be permitted to avoid the stagnation (and unattractiveness) of a state where all think and behave alike. (When I lived in the Netherlands briefly, long long ago, there was a degree of this.)

    Cultural integration is not a necessary condition for common fundamental beliefs. Multiculturalism works reasonably well in Australia so far (and is necessary, to avoid the monstrosity of expecting the indigenous people to assimilate into a culture that did not assimilate into theirs), but some overarching principles are necessary; and identifiable groups always carries the risk of rivalry between groups. I don't think there is a single best answer.

    I can't help feeling the French banning of religious wear in schools is heavy-handed, though, and is likely to raise resentment and prove counter-productive.
     
  7. jonb

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    I will say, as bad as Muslims are, I get tired of the 'we're so enlightened' attitude from white liberals. (Apparently they aren't: Risk of rape has actually increased since the US invaded Iraq.)
     
  8. Imported

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    Javierdude22: [quote author=lacsap1 link=board=99;num=1079308787;start=0#4 date=03/15/04 at 16:41:11]

    Mouse, the Dutch constitution, like all other Western European countries have an very important law on this matter; separation of church and state

    Holland's growing Muslim population (which currently comprises almost ten percent of the Dutch population), would undermine traditional Dutch values. Fortuyn, who was openly gay, also worried that Islam's aversion to homosexuality would clash with Holland's liberal attitude toward gays. Whereas Fortuyn was once branded a "fascist" by the European media, his views are now gaining mainstream acceptance.

    Based on our Western world, Prof. Dr. Fortuyn stated that the Islamic culture is backward culture, and that is true in a way. You can see that if you compare the Islamic world with the modern Western World and is hostile to gays and women’s rights and even the basic values of a European democracy.

    For many of Europe's Muslims, the most pressing "enemy" is not the U.S., Israel or capitalism, but the liberal Western attitude, secularized way of life practiced by their "infidel" hosts.

    Islam as a religion can’t change. But maybe the people can evolve towards another kind of light Islam. It’s not Islam that changes, but it’s Muslims that have to change.
    [/quote]

    Pascal, as much as I agree on the identificatoion of certain problems in Europe, and Holland, I dont agree with certain things you said.

    I think Jon has it right that although there are some major disturbing issues in the Islamic world, the WEstern world has adopted a chauvinistic view that we are the best, in every way, and people should get with the program.

    I would not say Islam is a retarded religion, every religion would be retarded then, Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism and even Buddhism. More and more I get a sense that only if your up-to-speed with here and now, that your not retarded. Well, it doesnt really work like that and we also have to respect the different views of other people. I am not saying circumcision of women should be a part of respect though, but nothing is that black and white.

    Look, what Im trying to say is, that both the Westerners, and the Muslims have the firjm belief that we are right in our way of life. As much as you are 100% convinced that being gay is ok, and women should have full rights, they are 100% convinced that this shouldnt be. If we d have a great big wall to separate us this would work out fine, but humans have a tendency to not respect our neighbours way of life, and want to convert them. We want them to respect our way, and they want to hold on to theirs. They feel they are losing the battle and thus resort to terrorism.

    Hm..im still waiting on myself to make a point...but...it might take a while so ill go on... :-/

    A slight correction. Not 10% of the Dutch are muslim, 4.5% is.

    Look, I do agree Muslims in Europe should change, hold on to what you believe in but do try to fit in the basic structure of European culture man. If they dont, then I w{ould opt for them to simply go back to the country they came from where im sure their way of life dóes fit in. were not the better culture, but once you take the red pill, shut up, and deal with it.
     
  9. Imported

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    grantstephens: I'm all for freedom of religion, but you do have to draw a line at some point. Islam is a very aggressive religion. I can't quote passages here, but I know there are passages that state that if a person doesn't convert to Islam they are to be put to death unless they are religions of the book (Jew and Christain), then they are to be placed in slavery.

    Most main stream religions seek converts, but don't threaten life if they don't convert. Islam teaches death and bondage. I know there are many love passages in the Koran, but they are balanced out by violence. It is not a peaceful religion. If a religion threatens your life, get rid of it. You can't please every one all the time - that is a reality. Dutch life was based in the Netherlands over centuries and it should not be threatened by a religious faction from another part of the word that does not believe in Dutch values. Go home I say and if they don't leave send them home. This also applies to all western societies. Our way is better for us, their way is better for them. No big deal.
     
  10. Imported

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    Doubtless_Mouse: But don't all religions preach about death to non believers in one form or another? If you are ot catholic, you won't go to heaven instead you go to hell, If you are not babtist you won't go to heaven instead you go to hell, if you are not jewish...if you are not hindu you won't achive enlightenment. All have a basic belief that they are the only one tru way, if Islam preaches death maybe the venue is faster (they kill you now versus christianity who will kill you later). Tolerance is not an idea in most religions no matter what they say. If tolerance was true they wouldn't seek to convert you now would they?

    More to come gotta go to work.
     
  11. lacsap1

    lacsap1 New Member

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    [quote author=Javierdude24 link=board=99;num=1079308787;start=0#7 date=03/16/04 at 07:37:42]
    I would not say Islam is a retarded religion, [/quote]

    I didn't mention "Islam is a retarded religion", what I try to say is that the Islam culture is backward in the way of behind our modern Western World concerning the separation of state and church, the human and female rights and even the basic values of a European open and free democracy.

    Like, Muslim men who refuse to shake hands with Dutch women (which is experienced as a sign of disrespect even if it is not meant as such). When speaking of problems with immigrants, it is usually the Muslims that we have in mind.

    After a period in which the idea of multiculturalism evoked pleasant associations and immigrants were told it was possible to integrate in our society without entirely giving up their own cultures -even some of their cultural activities, schools and other activities, were even subsidised by the state- there is now a noticeable shift in public opinion to a demand for their cultural assimilation. And here Islam seems to present a special problem, for can Muslims assimilate as long as they remain Muslims? Is Islam compatible with modern secular society? Or is it inherently hostile to secularism, modern, liberal and Free Western World ?

    Concerning the headscarves ban, first of all, it not just the Muslim headscarves but all signes of any kind of religions, so also the Jewish " keppel" or the Catholic cross must be banned out of the school or state offical offices this fully in line with the separation between church and state. A religion is something private, something you practice at home.

    I don't like to go to court and get jugded by a judge with a Jewish "keppel" on his heat, nore will I by a Muslima with a headscarve on the bench. Also a public school what's an official state institute there wouldn't be any signes of any religion.

    The Freedom of Religion can only be possible as we make sure the secularized state and separation of State and Church will stay fully and strongly in place.
     
  12. jonb

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    [quote author=Doubtless_Mouse link=board=99;num=1079308787;start=0#9 date=03/16/04 at 13:56:15]But don't all religions preach about death to non believers in one form or another?[/quote]
    No, just Abrahamic religions.
     
  13. Imported

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    grantstephens: The death that Christian religions teach and preach doesn't involve killing or enslaving those around you who don't convert - Islam does.
     
  14. lacsap1

    lacsap1 New Member

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    [quote author=Ineligible link=board=99;num=1079308787;start=0#5 date=03/15/04 at 17:16:29]

    I can't help feeling the French banning of religious wear in schools is heavy-handed, though, and is likely to raise resentment and prove counter-productive.[/quote]

    Why ?

    As stated;
    "Concerning the headscarves ban, first of all, it not just the Muslim headscarves but all signes of any kind of religions, so also the Jewish " keppel" or the Catholic cross must be banned out of the school or state offical offices this fully in line with the separation between church and state. A religion is something private, something you practice at home (or churches)."

    For the record, in Turkey and Maroc, countries where most of "our" muslim people come from, this headscarves ban is already in place at public schools and universities. So in ties countries muslimas don't have any problem with this ban....but as we have liberal laws concerning dresscodes, muslims claim this liberty as freedom of religion. Don't forget that the headscarve is the less form, ever seen a "burka" ? I can tell you it's a strange feeling, sitting 2 years at university and having a muslima fellow student completly dressed in black, never seen her face, hands or eyes...It's a scary feeling. Luckely the universities have already a ban on "burka's".

    We are afraid that soon civil or public functionaries will claim ties free dress code rights. Now we have already several muslimas claiming they want to have an extention of the uniforms supplement that will include a heatscarve for the police, prison guards and court clerks uniforms. I sorry but this goes to far.

    We most make sure that the secularized state and separation of State and Church will stay fully and strongly in place and otherwize we will mild the "freedom of religion" laws.
     
  15. jonb

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    [quote author=grantstephens link=board=99;num=1079308787;start=0#12 date=03/17/04 at 09:43:00]The death that Christian religions teach and preach doesn't involve killing or enslaving those around you who don't convert.[/quote]
    Funny, I know some Indians who might disagree with you. :mad:
     
  16. Imported

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    Inwood: I forget who said it here in the US but the quote goes something like this:

    "The constitution is not a suicide pact."

    Rights aren't the only thing. They are a part of the fabric of our society and sometimes unfortunately they are torn.

    A secular society such as our country only works if we mostly agree as a people to follow the laws which our country is founded upon. If people try to do things their own way problems erupt. (A couple of those groups in the midwest come to mind.)

    If a group comes into this country and doesn't want to assimilate culturally that's probably not a problem. By culturally I mean not watch TV, go to movies, dress conservativelly, home school. But if they disparage the laws of the land and say they can only be judge by laws of their land of birth then they are introducing a distablizing element.

    Those are people who should probably be deported. When you're a member of a community you have responsibilities to that community. Not all groups that hold themselves seperate are a problem. Here in New York Orthodox Jews keep seperate but they still manage to be somewhat a part of the community. Everyone just learns enough about each others culture to not do something insulting. Like I would never try to shake the hand of a woman who is a Orthodox Jew. And I wouldn't be insulted that friends who are Jewish who come over for a party might not eat since I wouldn't know how to do kosher.

    But some groups not only don't try to fit in they actively try to agitate to cause problems. Those are the people we have to deal with and maybe deal with in a way that goes against some of the ideals we try to uphold.

    As I mentioned at the beginning these ideals only work if all parties agree to try to work within the bounds set by those ideals.
     
  17. BobLeeSwagger

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    [quote author=grantstephens link=board=99;num=1079308787;start=0#8 date=03/16/04 at 10:05:08]I'm all for freedom of religion, but you do have to draw a line at some point. Islam is a very aggressive religion. I can't quote passages here, but I know there are passages that state that if a person doesn't convert to Islam they are to be put to death unless they are religions of the book (Jew and Christain), then they are to be placed in slavery.[/quote]

    This is a very selective interpretation. Like the Bible, the Koran is a compilation of passages, many of which contradict one another. Some passages do implore Muslims to kill infidels. (Interestingly, it goes even further to damn apostates, people who either falsely claim to be Muslim or have turned their backs on Islam.) But many other passages urge Muslims to respect Jews and Christians ("People of the Book") as brothers who worship the correct God, just not in the right way via the prophet Muhammed.

    Historically, Islam has been one of the more tolerant religions. While Christians in Europe were massacreing Jews and each other, Muslims in the Middle East and North Africa were relatively tolerant of them. (Turkey and Israel have good relations to this day.) Islam granted divorce and property rights to women long before Christian countries did. The Arabs did conquer vast territory partially in the name of Islam, of course, but for much of the last millenium their human rights record compared pretty well to the Europeans'.

    Anyone remember passages in the Old Testament in which the Hebrews are told to kill all who oppose them and collect their foreskins? Who's got the scary religion again?
     
  18. Imported

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    Javierdude22: [quote author=aloofman link=board=99;num=1079308787;start=0#16 date=03/18/04 at 22:41:10]

    This is a very selective interpretation.  

    Anyone remember passages in the Old Testament in which the Hebrews are told to kill all who oppose them and collect their foreskins?  Who's got the scary religion again?
    [/quote]

    I know virtually nothing of what the Koran says, I merely see everyday how its constituents execute it.

    I do know that the passage your quoting from the Bible is as much a selective interpretation as the one in the Koran.

    I personally dont really care what exactly the Bible or the Koran says literally somewhere in either scripture, cause they are both bound to be very contradictive somewhere.

    What I do hate is the people that use the Bible or the Koran for their own benefits, their own judgement, stereotypes, and mental illnesses. Radical Islamic terrorists in my view are sick people, and morally challenged cause they use the Koran for nothing other than their own purposes. Some freaky radical Christians from the bible belt or where-ever, with views not expressing the love their God does predict, IMo again are not very sane either.

    At this moment however, apart from the KKK in some instances, the Christians are not out on a jihad. In the name of the Christian God many Christians have tried to -convert- people, which was anything but right. And now we see a similar situation with Islam, where they dò seem to use those radical passages in the Koran to justify their actions. And thats gotta stop.
     
  19. Imported

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    grantstephens: In recent history it is true that men have used the bible as a means to fester aggresion and war, but that was not following Christian principles taught in the New Testament. The Old Testament is always quoted againts Christians, but Jesus laid grace down for the gentiles. The Old Testamnet is followed much closer by the Jews and respected by Christians but not follwoed word for word. And remember, Jesus called the followers of the Law hippocrits becasue the Law became more important than God.

    Many Christians today are very hippocritical and don't follow the standard of "get the log out of your own eye". I believe that being a True Christian is following your own path to God through Jesus - not condeming the rest of the world because they're not Christian.

    Javierdude is right, today the problem is not Christian Jihad, but Islam Jihad. Who care that some King in England 500 years or so ago twisted some words and attempted to take land in the name of God.

    Indians were treated cruely by Spanish Missionaries, but that time was 200 years ago. Today Christians organizations are doing tremendous things throughout the world. How many hospitals in your town are Christian or Catholic Hospitals? In my town of 40,000 we have two hospitals and they're both non-profic Adventist hospitals. How many Christian organizations feed the hungry in your town. In mine I find 2 - The Salvation Army and a Food Kitchen run by a church. There are many more examples of good works around the world that are run by Christian organizations.

    Unfortunetly, a few bad apples have given Chritians a bad rap. Today - True Christians are trying to do what's right.

    I have never seen any Islamic organization that is attempting to improve society for all. Doesn't mean there isn't one, I just haven't seen one.

    In my town there is this one particular gas station owned by a Saudi (aren't they all?) and when the towers went down he was out in front of his store waving a Saudi flag and cheering the news of the towers. Freedom of religion should only go so far. My Christian freinds did not wave an American flag and cheer every time a bomb was dropped in Iraq. As a matter of fact, they were praying for a quick end to this conflict and that no more life would be lost.

    Remember, I'm talking True Christians here, not hippocrits. It's amazing to me that every time someone start talking about Fundamental Islam we always go back to Christainity and have to defend actions from hundreds of years ago by stupid men. It's not Christians blowing up Towers and trains today - it's Islamic fundementalist.
     
  20. jonb

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    [quote author=grantstephens link=board=99;num=1079308787;start=0#18 date=03/19/04 at 11:47:09]Indians were treated cruely by Spanish Missionaries, but that time was 200 years ago.[/quote]
    Actually, it's still going on -- it took a special law to actually make Indian traditions legal, and the Supreme Court's always finding new ways to gut Indian rights in general -- but I'll leave you to your Mickey Mouse world.

    Fundamentalists in general are dangerous, I think. But you have to consider one reason they hate Americans: For one thing, it's easy to see why they claim we have loose morals; look at the way Britney Spears dresses. For another, there's Israel. I wish I could say I've seen the Israeli constitution, but they don't have one. That's not all; Israel is such a 'democracy' that
    • There is no separation between church and state
    • 30% of all people under Israeli control do not enjoy basic human rights[*}Parts of the education system are controlled by the secret services
    • 10% of citizens control 80% of the wealth
    • No time limits for administrative custody
    • Interrogators legally allowed to use torture
    • The government can shut down a newspaper
    • Non-Jews cannot buy state land
    Either way, Bush's methods just create more terrorists. It's up to us. How do we fight terrorism? Well, currently, the majority of the Saudi population is boycotting American goods. Also, many prominent, wealthy, and powerful individuals in Saudi Arabia (including one princess, though she apparently "didn't know it was being used to fund terrorists") have made contributions to al-Qaeda. 90% of Saudi exports relate to one commodity: Oil. However, we have the numbers of which companies use Saudi oil; not all do. Here are the numbers for some gasoline chains you are probably familiar with:
    • Shell - 205,742,000 barrels
    • Chevron/Texaco - 144,332,000 barrels
    • Esso/Exxon/Mobil - 130,082,000 barrels
    • Marathon/Speedway - 117,740,000 barrels
    • Amoco - 62,231,000 barrels
    The current price is $30 a barrel. If you do the math, that's $18 billion. (Yes, that's billion with a B.) On the other extreme are these numbers:
    • BP/Phillips - 0 barrels
    • Citgo - 0 barrels
    • Conoco - 0 barrels
    • Hess - 0 barrels
    • Sinclair - 0 barrels
    • Sunoco - 0 barrels
    All of these numbers are from the Department of Energy.
     
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