Inwood: You don't by chance have info on which oil companies have contributed the most money to the Bush/Cheney team do you?
At stake is Western civilization !?
- Thread starter lacsap1
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- jonb,
[quote author=Inwood link=board=99;num=1079308787;start=20#20 date=03/19/04 at 20:08:26]You don't by chance have info on which oil companies have contributed the most money to the Bush/Cheney team do you?[/quote]
Glad you asked.
http://www.nrdc.org/air/energy/aplayers.asp
Glad you asked.
http://www.nrdc.org/air/energy/aplayers.asp
Javierdude22: [quote author=jonb link=board=99;num=1079308787;start=0#19 date=03/19/04 at 19:58:57]Israel is such a 'democracy' that
Im not sure if im entering a lion pithole here, but, we ll see.
As much as I agree on the oil thing with you Jon, I cannot agree on the Israel thing. I have had bitter discussion with people who fight the cause of the Palestinian people, without knowing even the tip of the iceberg of the facts.
You have to remember that if Israel would not have all the fatures that you name, it would probably not exist.
I agree that right now Israel is doing some very dumb things like entering into refugee camps, when finally, no suicide bombs have gone off in quite a while.
However, most things they do, are in direct relation to their history. The moment Israel declared independancy it was attacked by the entire Arab world. They had a few canons and one airplane fighter, and the will to fight. They were bound to be wiped off the map had the US not stepped in at the nick of time.
The world forgets that the Palestinians helped, and cheered, and started waving Amnesty International pamflets when they realised they were gonna lose, and with that a lot of land. In 1967 the same and then some.
And with a pack of vultures still breathing in their necks, I can understand they are less than hospitable to their enemies, or anyone that tries to undermine their freedom and openly states it would like to annihilate it.
Anyone being hunted down by a group of his worst enemies would turn around and shoot back.
Again, this is not saying that the Israeli politics have been just in the past few years or so. But I cannot take
any criticism and hypocritical claims of inhumanity by the Arab side.
- There is no separation between church and state
- 30% of all people under Israeli control do not enjoy basic human rights[*}Parts of the education system are controlled by the secret services
- 10% of citizens control 80% of the wealth
- No time limits for administrative custody
- Interrogators legally allowed to use torture
- The government can shut down a newspaper
- Non-Jews cannot buy state land
Im not sure if im entering a lion pithole here, but, we ll see.
As much as I agree on the oil thing with you Jon, I cannot agree on the Israel thing. I have had bitter discussion with people who fight the cause of the Palestinian people, without knowing even the tip of the iceberg of the facts.
You have to remember that if Israel would not have all the fatures that you name, it would probably not exist.
I agree that right now Israel is doing some very dumb things like entering into refugee camps, when finally, no suicide bombs have gone off in quite a while.
However, most things they do, are in direct relation to their history. The moment Israel declared independancy it was attacked by the entire Arab world. They had a few canons and one airplane fighter, and the will to fight. They were bound to be wiped off the map had the US not stepped in at the nick of time.
The world forgets that the Palestinians helped, and cheered, and started waving Amnesty International pamflets when they realised they were gonna lose, and with that a lot of land. In 1967 the same and then some.
And with a pack of vultures still breathing in their necks, I can understand they are less than hospitable to their enemies, or anyone that tries to undermine their freedom and openly states it would like to annihilate it.
Anyone being hunted down by a group of his worst enemies would turn around and shoot back.
Again, this is not saying that the Israeli politics have been just in the past few years or so. But I cannot take
any criticism and hypocritical claims of inhumanity by the Arab side.
- jonb,
Oh, i should've added this attempt by Wild Bill Janklow to kill two birds with one stone:
http://www.aberdeennews.com/mld/aberdeennews/news/5358857.htm
It doesn't officially say Indians would've been (I'm using past tense because Jank was recently convicted of vehicular manslaughter; he was driving 90 miles an hour and some guy on a motorcycle apparently didn't see someone a mile away.) used as target practice, but anyone knowing anything about Janklow would say that it's probably how the deal would've panned out had he not been so stupid; he's one of those types who rides around reservations shooting randomly.
As for Israel itself, Israeli historian Henry Morris found massacres going back to 1948.
http://www.aberdeennews.com/mld/aberdeennews/news/5358857.htm
It doesn't officially say Indians would've been (I'm using past tense because Jank was recently convicted of vehicular manslaughter; he was driving 90 miles an hour and some guy on a motorcycle apparently didn't see someone a mile away.) used as target practice, but anyone knowing anything about Janklow would say that it's probably how the deal would've panned out had he not been so stupid; he's one of those types who rides around reservations shooting randomly.
As for Israel itself, Israeli historian Henry Morris found massacres going back to 1948.
Javier..
The Palestine problem is more complicated than your post implies [as you probably know]. Terrorism has been used by both sides. In fact, terrorism resulted in the founding of Israel; the British gave up their mandate for Palestine in the late 1940s. They did not have the heart to crack down on Israeli terrorists such as Menachen Begin and those who supported him. Begin was responsible for the New Years eve bombing of the King David Hotel. British security was about 90 percent certain that Begin was hiding in a large apartment building [his family lived in same building]; but repeated searches failed to discover the hidden room. Today if Israeli security suspected a terrorist was hiding in a building, it would be buldozed. The plight of the 400 families living there would be of no concern. The Brits operating under the U.N. mandate were more humane in trying to combat terror and eventually gave in to Israeli terrorists.
During the war in which Israel gained the West Bank, many thousands of Palestinians fled their homes to avoid being in the middle of fighting armies. The refugees fled here then there and then into Lebanon in search of temporary safety. When the fighting stopped, they tried to return to their abandoned homes and farms; but Israel would not admit them. They were homeless and stateless in Lebanon. To date, they have not been allowed to return; moreover, the refugees have not been compensated for the seized lands and homes.
Do I think that Israel will ever give up the West Bank? Nah. Most recent biographies and histories of the era quote Israeli leadership such as Sharon [in the weeks after the war] as saying that they would never give back the West Bank for this was the historic home of the Jews. After almost 40 years, it looks like the euphoric words following the war are reality.
jay
The Palestine problem is more complicated than your post implies [as you probably know]. Terrorism has been used by both sides. In fact, terrorism resulted in the founding of Israel; the British gave up their mandate for Palestine in the late 1940s. They did not have the heart to crack down on Israeli terrorists such as Menachen Begin and those who supported him. Begin was responsible for the New Years eve bombing of the King David Hotel. British security was about 90 percent certain that Begin was hiding in a large apartment building [his family lived in same building]; but repeated searches failed to discover the hidden room. Today if Israeli security suspected a terrorist was hiding in a building, it would be buldozed. The plight of the 400 families living there would be of no concern. The Brits operating under the U.N. mandate were more humane in trying to combat terror and eventually gave in to Israeli terrorists.
During the war in which Israel gained the West Bank, many thousands of Palestinians fled their homes to avoid being in the middle of fighting armies. The refugees fled here then there and then into Lebanon in search of temporary safety. When the fighting stopped, they tried to return to their abandoned homes and farms; but Israel would not admit them. They were homeless and stateless in Lebanon. To date, they have not been allowed to return; moreover, the refugees have not been compensated for the seized lands and homes.
Do I think that Israel will ever give up the West Bank? Nah. Most recent biographies and histories of the era quote Israeli leadership such as Sharon [in the weeks after the war] as saying that they would never give back the West Bank for this was the historic home of the Jews. After almost 40 years, it looks like the euphoric words following the war are reality.
jay
jon, please don't take this wrong, but I get the feeling that the only thing your fine education gave you is cynicism - not necessarily a bad thing in small portions, but you seem to wallow in it sometimes. It's kind of like those guys with smaller-dicks-than-we who come to LPSG to say bad things about us and to feel sorry for themselves.
You could be the Ben Nighthorse Campbell (or better) of your state were you to turn your concerns to a political career. Think about it, if you haven't already.
You could be the Ben Nighthorse Campbell (or better) of your state were you to turn your concerns to a political career. Think about it, if you haven't already.
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[quote author=jonb link=board=99;num=1079308787;start=20#26 date=03/20/04 at 20:49:09] Actually, the more I learn about the Israeli-Palestinian situation, the more I realize Israel is no different from any other US sponsored 'democracy' such as the Khmer Rouge, apartheid-era South Africa, or Pinochet's Chile.[/quote]
Sorry, but this isn't correct.
There is a great different between the Israel Palestinian situation ( and USA, Irak, Afganistan ) and Khmer Rouge, apartheid-era South Africa, or Pinochet's Chile.
Cambodia, RSA and Chile where local country situations and not based on religion.
Concerning Irak, Israel/Palestin and Afganistan issues are based on religion and are international or region issues and always leed back to the one big global missions of Muslim;
The revival of the former Muslim empire, the unification of the Muslim world as one nation, and the reclamation of Islamic glory.
In the eyes of the Islamist movements and ideologists, there is already a state of war between the Muslim world and the Western World. From their viewpoint, members of Islamist groups are not terrorists, but permanent soldiers in the service of Allah. As the enemy is everywhere, not only in its own countries but also deep inside the Arab and Muslim world in the form of corrupt governments and diseased cultures, the soldiers of Allah must wage a constant war on many fronts. And as the conspiracy is against Islam and the Muslims, their war is actually one of self-defense. Just as the infidels fight using contemptible and foul methods, the Islamic answer should use all possible means of defense.
The important question remains as to how the West should defend itself against Islamic terrorism. Suffice it to say that in order to deal with this problem, the West must first recognize that the present terrorism in the world is Islamic in nature and aganst The modern culture of the West with combining elements of democracy, human rights, civil infrastructure, liberalism etc., with the social and human values of Christianity.
So again, how fare do we need to go with the Freedom of religion in the Western World?
Sorry, but this isn't correct.
There is a great different between the Israel Palestinian situation ( and USA, Irak, Afganistan ) and Khmer Rouge, apartheid-era South Africa, or Pinochet's Chile.
Cambodia, RSA and Chile where local country situations and not based on religion.
Concerning Irak, Israel/Palestin and Afganistan issues are based on religion and are international or region issues and always leed back to the one big global missions of Muslim;
The revival of the former Muslim empire, the unification of the Muslim world as one nation, and the reclamation of Islamic glory.
In the eyes of the Islamist movements and ideologists, there is already a state of war between the Muslim world and the Western World. From their viewpoint, members of Islamist groups are not terrorists, but permanent soldiers in the service of Allah. As the enemy is everywhere, not only in its own countries but also deep inside the Arab and Muslim world in the form of corrupt governments and diseased cultures, the soldiers of Allah must wage a constant war on many fronts. And as the conspiracy is against Islam and the Muslims, their war is actually one of self-defense. Just as the infidels fight using contemptible and foul methods, the Islamic answer should use all possible means of defense.
The important question remains as to how the West should defend itself against Islamic terrorism. Suffice it to say that in order to deal with this problem, the West must first recognize that the present terrorism in the world is Islamic in nature and aganst The modern culture of the West with combining elements of democracy, human rights, civil infrastructure, liberalism etc., with the social and human values of Christianity.
So again, how fare do we need to go with the Freedom of religion in the Western World?
Javierdude22: [quote author=jay_too link=board=99;num=1079308787;start=20#25 date=03/20/04 at 20:45:42]During the war in which Israel gained the West Bank, many thousands of Palestinians fled their homes to avoid being in the middle of fighting armies. The refugees fled here then there and then into Lebanon in search of temporary safety. When the fighting stopped, they tried to return to their abandoned homes and farms; but Israel would not admit them. They were homeless and stateless in Lebanon. To date, they have not been allowed to return; moreover, the refugees have not been compensated for the seized lands and homes. [/quote]
Jay, I didnt know about Begin actually. I dont know much of the details involving Israeli independance. i did a paper on it one time, but focused on the political zig-zagging that came before this independance.
I am familiar with the refugee cases though. Ill elaborate below.
[quote author=jay_too link=board=99;num=1079308787;start=20#25 date=03/20/04 at 20:45:42]
Do I think that Israel will ever give up the West Bank? Nah. Most recent biographies and histories of the era quote Israeli leadership such as Sharon [in the weeks after the war] as saying that they would never give back the West Bank for this was the historic home of the Jews. After almost 40 years, it looks like the euphoric words following the war are reality.
[/quote]
They indeed probably never will give back the West Bank. In my personal opinion the efforts poured into the Peace Process will never actually lead to peace, but they are more attempts of damage control. Otherwise it would be fullblown war out there. Now all we have is incidental, but persistant acts of frustration (i.e. terror attacks).
Hm...see...the thing is, that I can understand these people. Israelis were one day what Gyspies and Kurds are today still. A people spat out by the entire world, homeless, but (and in that different from the beforementioned) rather rich. The rich ones however largely live outside Israel. So aftr 2000 years of being hunted down like dogs, having been enslaved, massacred, and been labeled societis unwanted, these people finally get a home where this all has stopped. They are no longer unwelcomed guests in somebody elses home, but built their own one. Thats the first thing.
Then there is the century old, deeply entrenched hatred between the Palestinians and the Jews. This hatred goes as deep as Albanians and Serbs, no, actually there is none to compare with. This hate is running through their veins, on both sides.
Then there is the knowledge that all your neighbours would rather see you wiped off the map, and would even throw away every possibility of peace, simply cause they are Jews. Nòw a few came around, but only as recent as 1995. Actually only Egypt and Jordan came around, the rest continues its path. And really nòt because they care so much about the Palestinians, cause they are considered the lowest among Arabs. But they use them as an excuse to fight against Israel.
Jon, of course none of this means that they can kill everyone around them. Thats the point where I very much disagree with Israeli politics. But to me all the above mentioned issues surounding this topic do justify and explain the societal and political features you pointed out.
Jay, I didnt know about Begin actually. I dont know much of the details involving Israeli independance. i did a paper on it one time, but focused on the political zig-zagging that came before this independance.
I am familiar with the refugee cases though. Ill elaborate below.
[quote author=jay_too link=board=99;num=1079308787;start=20#25 date=03/20/04 at 20:45:42]
Do I think that Israel will ever give up the West Bank? Nah. Most recent biographies and histories of the era quote Israeli leadership such as Sharon [in the weeks after the war] as saying that they would never give back the West Bank for this was the historic home of the Jews. After almost 40 years, it looks like the euphoric words following the war are reality.
[/quote]
They indeed probably never will give back the West Bank. In my personal opinion the efforts poured into the Peace Process will never actually lead to peace, but they are more attempts of damage control. Otherwise it would be fullblown war out there. Now all we have is incidental, but persistant acts of frustration (i.e. terror attacks).
Hm...see...the thing is, that I can understand these people. Israelis were one day what Gyspies and Kurds are today still. A people spat out by the entire world, homeless, but (and in that different from the beforementioned) rather rich. The rich ones however largely live outside Israel. So aftr 2000 years of being hunted down like dogs, having been enslaved, massacred, and been labeled societis unwanted, these people finally get a home where this all has stopped. They are no longer unwelcomed guests in somebody elses home, but built their own one. Thats the first thing.
Then there is the century old, deeply entrenched hatred between the Palestinians and the Jews. This hatred goes as deep as Albanians and Serbs, no, actually there is none to compare with. This hate is running through their veins, on both sides.
Then there is the knowledge that all your neighbours would rather see you wiped off the map, and would even throw away every possibility of peace, simply cause they are Jews. Nòw a few came around, but only as recent as 1995. Actually only Egypt and Jordan came around, the rest continues its path. And really nòt because they care so much about the Palestinians, cause they are considered the lowest among Arabs. But they use them as an excuse to fight against Israel.
Jon, of course none of this means that they can kill everyone around them. Thats the point where I very much disagree with Israeli politics. But to me all the above mentioned issues surounding this topic do justify and explain the societal and political features you pointed out.
- jonb,
[quote author=Pecker link=board=99;num=1079308787;start=20#27 date=03/20/04 at 21:01:24]jon, please don't take this wrong, but I get the feeling that the only thing your fine education gave you is cynicism - not necessarily a bad thing in small portions, but you seem to wallow in it sometimes. It's kind of like those guys with smaller-dicks-than-we who come to LPSG to say bad things about us and to feel sorry for themselves.[/quote]
No, my growing up with brown skin in South Dakota gave me cynicism. If you were familiar with Janklow's history, you would see why I would have such an opinion of him. Let's first start with his home life; back in the 60s, he adopted a Rosebud girl and had his way with her. Then as Attorney General, he tried to suppress the evidence. He openly campaigned on the promise to lock Indians up in 1978.
No, my growing up with brown skin in South Dakota gave me cynicism. If you were familiar with Janklow's history, you would see why I would have such an opinion of him. Let's first start with his home life; back in the 60s, he adopted a Rosebud girl and had his way with her. Then as Attorney General, he tried to suppress the evidence. He openly campaigned on the promise to lock Indians up in 1978.
Ever been to SD, Pecker? Hell, even before the 2002 election, Republicans were accusing us of voter fraud. Even after a Republican attorney general showed that the challenges didn't hold water, Novak and others continued the accusation.You could be the Ben Nighthorse Campbell (or better) of your state were you to turn your concerns to a political career. Think about it, if you haven't already.
- jonb,
Well, not all terrorists are Muslim. I won't support the 'war on terror' until Bush bombs the Aryan Nations compound, another fundamentalist organization which performs terrorist actions.
As for the hatred between Palestinians and Jews, I had no idea 56 years was 'centuries'. LOL There's that new math again: 1/2 is apparently expressed in the plural.
As for the hatred between Palestinians and Jews, I had no idea 56 years was 'centuries'. LOL There's that new math again: 1/2 is apparently expressed in the plural.
Javierdude22: Come on Jon, I dont have to tell you the Jews and Filistines have been at eachothers throats for over centuries?
They were killing eachother way before that.
They were killing eachother way before that.
hawl: I miss the days when I more or less had both Israel and Palestine on Ignore. I'm being forced to educate myself on what seems like an endless back-and-forth flame war far away from my daily life and concerns. What a drag. I'm extremely pro-choice, so why do I keep recommending Pat Buchanan articles ??? ? It's good to see people at least trying to understand the background to this stuff, rather than just the daily headlines about who blew up who. I'm really tired of hearing so much about this part of the world. What about Burma? I thought these articles were interesting and deserved wider circulation http://middleeastinfo.org/article3840.html and www.amconmag.com/12_15_03/buchanan.html . Here's an article mentioning Begin's days as leader of the Irgun group http://politics.guardian.co.uk/politicspast/story/0,9061,961081,00.html .
??? ? It's good to see people at least trying to understand the background to this stuff, rather than just the daily headlines about who blew up who. I'm really tired of hearing so much about this part of the world. What about Burma? I thought these articles were interesting and deserved wider circulation http://middleeastinfo.org/article3840.html and www.amconmag.com/12_15_03/buchanan.html . Here's an article mentioning Begin's days as leader of the Irgun group http://politics.guardian.co.uk/politicspast/story/0,9061,961081,00.html .Javierdude22: [quote author=jonb link=board=99;num=1079308787;start=20#33 date=03/21/04 at 17:39:04]Actually, Palestinians appear to be simply Jews converted to Islam, judging by all molecular and historical (before 1948, that is) data.[/quote]
Well, some of them indeed were. But a lot of them werent. Its basically a very difficult situation, well reflected by the current turmoil in the region.
Palestinians by heritage stem directly from the Filistines, Canaanites and Hittites. The Hebrews have always had trouble with them, but seem to have got along fine when The Arabs entered and converted many of the Filistines and Canaanites to Islam.
I dont know much else about this, except for the current claims. Israelis claim there has never been a Palestine, although not one determined for the palestinian people as we know them now. Actually they claim there also isnt a thing as palestinian people, Syrians, or Jordans. That they are simply Arabs. Well...maybe by definition that is true, but the world doesnt work like that anymore.
On the other hand, Israelis almost never have had land rights in what is now Israel. Only for the last 57 years and after Christ a few hundred years did they govern parts of what is Israel. So both can throw sticks and stones, but theyll still be in the shithole theyre at now.
Its very tricky..
But basically, all this is because both sides, Arabs and Israeli would rather see eachother wiped off the map than otherwise...
Well, some of them indeed were. But a lot of them werent. Its basically a very difficult situation, well reflected by the current turmoil in the region.
Palestinians by heritage stem directly from the Filistines, Canaanites and Hittites. The Hebrews have always had trouble with them, but seem to have got along fine when The Arabs entered and converted many of the Filistines and Canaanites to Islam.
I dont know much else about this, except for the current claims. Israelis claim there has never been a Palestine, although not one determined for the palestinian people as we know them now. Actually they claim there also isnt a thing as palestinian people, Syrians, or Jordans. That they are simply Arabs. Well...maybe by definition that is true, but the world doesnt work like that anymore.
On the other hand, Israelis almost never have had land rights in what is now Israel. Only for the last 57 years and after Christ a few hundred years did they govern parts of what is Israel. So both can throw sticks and stones, but theyll still be in the shithole theyre at now.
Its very tricky..
But basically, all this is because both sides, Arabs and Israeli would rather see eachother wiped off the map than otherwise...
[quote author=Javierdude24 link=board=99;num=1079308787;start=20#35 date=03/22/04 at 10:22:10] Israelis claim there has never been a Palestine, although not one determined for the palestinian people as we know them now. Actually they claim there also isnt a thing as palestinian people, Syrians, or Jordans. . . .Its very tricky..
[/quote]
Yep, it is a tricky argument...errr, make that specious. The Israelis are trying to define their opponent and his claim to statehood. In the modern era...say the last 200 to 300 years...nation states and their populations have been defined on location and shared political and social values. Using the Israeli logic, there is not an England, home of the Angles, because of the successive migrations and invasions of Saxons, Celts, Normans, Scandinavians and others - much less a United States, a true polygot of races, ethnicities, religions, etc.
jay
[/quote]
Yep, it is a tricky argument...errr, make that specious. The Israelis are trying to define their opponent and his claim to statehood. In the modern era...say the last 200 to 300 years...nation states and their populations have been defined on location and shared political and social values. Using the Israeli logic, there is not an England, home of the Angles, because of the successive migrations and invasions of Saxons, Celts, Normans, Scandinavians and others - much less a United States, a true polygot of races, ethnicities, religions, etc.
jay
ORCABOMBER: I dunno, is our society at stake? Seems we might as well have a holy war and get it over with.
I point you in the direction of http://www.forumplanet.com/planetcnc/topic.asp?fid=1914&tid=1325989
which is discussing this very subject.
I think that yes, integration is important, but not assimilation, in the UK, we have a similar problem to the Dutch, heck, one girl at my uni wears a hajib. WHY?
Freedom of religon, is fine, but don't tar people with the same brush. Say that Cuba was behind 9/11, would all Cubans, Carribeans, Africans, heck, Brown and Black people in general be terrorists or potential suicide bombers?
I think we need to be able to make a stand though, the biggest threat to OUR greedy and self-consuming lives is fundamentalist terrorism, but is the biggest threat to theirs? Of course not, maybe we need to either work out where we're going wrong. Or light the fires of war and give the horsemen of the apocalypse some new stirrups.
I point you in the direction of http://www.forumplanet.com/planetcnc/topic.asp?fid=1914&tid=1325989
which is discussing this very subject.
I think that yes, integration is important, but not assimilation, in the UK, we have a similar problem to the Dutch, heck, one girl at my uni wears a hajib. WHY?
Freedom of religon, is fine, but don't tar people with the same brush. Say that Cuba was behind 9/11, would all Cubans, Carribeans, Africans, heck, Brown and Black people in general be terrorists or potential suicide bombers?
I think we need to be able to make a stand though, the biggest threat to OUR greedy and self-consuming lives is fundamentalist terrorism, but is the biggest threat to theirs? Of course not, maybe we need to either work out where we're going wrong. Or light the fires of war and give the horsemen of the apocalypse some new stirrups.
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[quote author=ORCABOMBER link=board=99;num=1079308787;start=20#37 date=03/24/04 at 01:22:12]
Say that Cuba was behind 9/11, would all Cubans, Carribeans, Africans, heck, Brown and Black people in general be terrorists or potential suicide bombers?
[/quote]
Ofcourse not, as ties peolpe have all different religions..
Why is it not possible to see that there is a great differents between the "Western World" based on Judeo-Christian heritage and Muslim culture with it's (fundamentalist) terrorism. The global mission of the Muslim religion is the revival of the former Muslim empire, the unification of the Muslim world as one nation, and the reclamation of Islamic glory.
It is our (the Western World) secular culture of freedom, reason, and the pursuit of happiness. Islam hates our individualism; what they want is an authoritarian society where thought and behavior are controlled by true believers. Islam hates imperialism and capitalism as a system of trade, production, innovation, and progress; what Islam wants is a return to a primitive mode of existence from which these "materialist" aspirations have been banished. Islam hates the political system of individual rights, the rule of law, and secular government; what the Islam wants is a tribal society ruled by command and religion.
Can this be the reason that's there something about Islam that makes it impossible for Muslims to fit into western, liberal societies?
If the hostility is directed against imperialism in that sense, why has it been so much stronger against Western Europe, which has relinquished all its Muslim possessions and dependencies, than against Russia, which still rules, with no light hand, over many millions of reluctant Muslim subjects and over ancient Muslim cities and countries?
This is more than a clash of civilizations, it's old but surely historic reaction of an ancient rival against our Judeo-Christian heritage, our secular present, and the worldwide expansion of both. It is crucially important that we on our side should not be provoked into an equally historic but also equally irrational reaction against that rival.
Say that Cuba was behind 9/11, would all Cubans, Carribeans, Africans, heck, Brown and Black people in general be terrorists or potential suicide bombers?
[/quote]
Ofcourse not, as ties peolpe have all different religions..
Why is it not possible to see that there is a great differents between the "Western World" based on Judeo-Christian heritage and Muslim culture with it's (fundamentalist) terrorism. The global mission of the Muslim religion is the revival of the former Muslim empire, the unification of the Muslim world as one nation, and the reclamation of Islamic glory.
It is our (the Western World) secular culture of freedom, reason, and the pursuit of happiness. Islam hates our individualism; what they want is an authoritarian society where thought and behavior are controlled by true believers. Islam hates imperialism and capitalism as a system of trade, production, innovation, and progress; what Islam wants is a return to a primitive mode of existence from which these "materialist" aspirations have been banished. Islam hates the political system of individual rights, the rule of law, and secular government; what the Islam wants is a tribal society ruled by command and religion.
Can this be the reason that's there something about Islam that makes it impossible for Muslims to fit into western, liberal societies?
If the hostility is directed against imperialism in that sense, why has it been so much stronger against Western Europe, which has relinquished all its Muslim possessions and dependencies, than against Russia, which still rules, with no light hand, over many millions of reluctant Muslim subjects and over ancient Muslim cities and countries?
This is more than a clash of civilizations, it's old but surely historic reaction of an ancient rival against our Judeo-Christian heritage, our secular present, and the worldwide expansion of both. It is crucially important that we on our side should not be provoked into an equally historic but also equally irrational reaction against that rival.
[quote author=lacsap1 link=board=99;num=1079308787;start=20#38 date=03/25/04 at 17:38:45]
The global mission of the Muslim religion is the revival of the former Muslim empire, the unification of the Muslim world as one nation, and the reclamation of Islamic glory. [/quote]
Pascal..
For over half my life, I have had Muslim friends; they have been nice, hard-working guyz. Did they want to convert me? No way! Were they interested in dominating anyone? Not that I could tell. The only way that they different from other friends was that they would get really uncomfortable when we ragged each other. They believed that we should treat one another with respect; in my opinion, that is not too bad an idea...a little hard in practice but still a good idea.
In my country, we have religious nuts that claim the superiority of the white race and would like to kill any who do not share their world vision. Supposedly, they are Christian.
jay
The global mission of the Muslim religion is the revival of the former Muslim empire, the unification of the Muslim world as one nation, and the reclamation of Islamic glory. [/quote]
Pascal..
For over half my life, I have had Muslim friends; they have been nice, hard-working guyz. Did they want to convert me? No way! Were they interested in dominating anyone? Not that I could tell. The only way that they different from other friends was that they would get really uncomfortable when we ragged each other. They believed that we should treat one another with respect; in my opinion, that is not too bad an idea...a little hard in practice but still a good idea.
In my country, we have religious nuts that claim the superiority of the white race and would like to kill any who do not share their world vision. Supposedly, they are Christian.
jay
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