At stake is Western civilization !?

[jonb]

[quote author=lacsap1 link=board=99;num=1079308787;start=20#38 date=03/25/04 at 17:38:45]Why is it not possible to see that there is a great differents between the "Western World" based on Judeo-Christian heritage and Muslim culture with it's (fundamentalist) terrorism.[/quote]
I don't see much difference between the two, personally. And that is not a compliment to Muslims.

 

[jonb]

[quote author=jay_too link=board=99;num=1079308787;start=20#39 date=03/25/04 at 20:37:25]In my country, we have religious nuts that claim the superiority of the white race and would like to kill any who do not share their world vision. Supposedly, they are Christian.[/quote]
They are. Just a strange form wherein only whites are descended from Adam. It's called polygenism.

 

[13788]

Javierdude22: Jay and Jon,

I see what you mean. The situation in the US is very different though from the one in Europe. I cant really explain it, maybe it is because in the US there is still a very strong Christian base that balances out any other mainstream religion.

It could also be, and in greater part it is I think, our planification process and the density in Europe. Northwestern Europe is one of the most densely populated parts of the world. At the same time we have relatively large muslim populations 5% in Holland, Belgium and Germany, running upto 10% in France. Then it turns out those almost all of them live in the cities, and on top of that very segregated in certain neighbourhoods. This is anything but the case in the US.

In Europe therefore we have Muslim Chinatowns, where every bar, restaurant, bakery, you name it, is Muslim. It causes them to not integrate with others. Hell, if I move to someplace new where I dont know the language, ill rather hang out with Dutchmen too. Its easier.

For a while this worked ok, upto the 80ies maybe. But with the developments in the Middle East and Europes biased policy towards it caused them to stir up. And it is causing serious friction with the native Dutch (and Belgians, French, and Germans).

Then it turns out that fundamentalist muslims directly operate from Mosques to recruite jihad fighters, preach about how all tyhe western world (in which their Mosque is situated) should be anihilated etc.)...

...the Dutch tend to not like that...

So in a nutshell, things are gravely different from the US and European population. I have many many friends with all sorts of different religions. Last time I had a great talk with 4 friends of mine who were respectively Muslim, and HIndu, and myself a Christian. We had the greatest talk about religion. But this all is on a personal level, which is all great.

But on the level of society and politics, decisions need to be taken, without taking into thought personal stuff. And when you take a close look I very much have to agree with Pascal on that in Europe there is a division between Judo-Christian society, and Muslims. We as a society seem to be forced to choose sides, our culture actually already chose. And in all honesty, I do avoid conversations with my Muslim friends about this, cause it will get ugly. And that is the distinction. Sides are very polarized, be it because of the proximity to the Middle East, the large and dense muslim population, and all the things that come with this.

Europe in part has become the battleground for this latent war between the worlds. Has anyone read the book Clash of Civilizations by Samuel Huntington? I havent read it fully, but know the general idea. I think he is right, and it will only become clearer.

 

[lacsap1]

[quote author=Javierdude24 link=board=99;num=1079308787;start=40#42 date=03/26/04 at 06:33:52]Jay and Jon,

"The situation in the US is very different though from the one in Europe" + "So in a nutshell, things are gravely different from the US and European population"
+ "Europe in part has become the battleground for this latent war between the worlds" [/quote]

I'm Sorry, for all of you "Non-Europeans" who don't understand my feelings and worries concerning this matter. I'm not a rascist, fare from it, but at this moment it's not easy.....FYI, the Netherlands is a very small country with 16 million people and yesterday we had another small inconvienance and whole the country was in shock ! I can tell you that the xenophobia is getting to it's highest level; Here the Dutch news from yesterday,

26 March 2004
AMSTERDAM — Three bomb scares in one day.

Train travel to and from Leiden was shut down at about 10.30pm and several hundred passengers were in the station when police ordered its evacuation. The all clear was given at about 1am, allowing the resumption of train travel. Since the Madrid bombings on 11 March, police are taking every threat seriously and also ordered the evacuations of Amsterdam Central station and Roosendaal Central station on Thursday afternoon after bomb threats were made. All train travel to and from the Dutch capital was halted and trams, busses or metros did not stop at or near Central Station either. Meanwhile, a separate bomb threat also forced the cancellation of train travel at the city of Roosendaal at about 1.45pm, rail network administrator Prorail said. Train travel to and from Breda and Roosendaal was stopped. Police also stopped the Brussels-Amsterdam international train at Oudenbosch, near Roosendaal, and forced all 150 passengers to leave the train one at a time and undergo searches.

Thursday's bomb scares come after the A4 motorway at Rijswijk and train travel between The Hague and Delft was cancelled due to the discovery of a suspect package on Wednesday. No explosives were found in the packages and the motorway and railway was re-opened later that day.

So I will guote myself;

[guote]
As for those who, after a period in the West, make it obvious that they are unwilling or unable to adapt, they must be sent home and replaced by deserving individuals who can adapt. This may appear extreme, but there is no reasonable alternative. For at stake in all this, ultimately, are the basic freedoms of all Westerners; not only women and homosexuals, but everyone, including Muslims and former Muslims who wish to live in a place where they can be themselves.
At stake, indeed, is Western civilization.[/quote]

Tolerance for intolerance is not tolerance at all.

 

[13788]

ORCABOMBER: So, the greatest evil of mankind is Islam? I'd really love to know the statistics of Islamic rapists, paedophiles, murderes and white-collar criminals in Western countries.

Heck, if it weren't for 9/11, then no one would give a shit about them.

Personally, I'm not defending the faith, it's up to the people who practice it to, I will say that it's unfair, as I said, to tar people with the same brush.

Because, can you tell who's Muslim by the way they look? It's as awkward as Judaism, the sterotype of the "hook-nosed Jew" has been cheucked away to be replaced by the "turban wearing fanatic".

I live in an dominantly "Asian" area, damned if I know who or what they are, and frankly, I don't care, maybe I see differently, seeing as my background isn't "God save America" either.

BTW, my Cuba example is probably very valid, because it is common knowledge that the 9/11 bombers were not Afghans, nor Iraqis, but still. So in all fairness, this isn't about Muslims picking on us, but us picking on them.

In the Cuban example, we'd probably be going after South Africa by now, such is the need for revenge.

Anyway, we supplied the means for "Binnie Laden" to get the knowledge, training and support to start up his group, international terrrorism didn't spring out of nowhere, despite what the idiots that control us may like us to belive. It's probably been around for longer than most of us have existed.

My point?

1) If people must feel they're on a [b[holy[/b] campaign to rid the world of fundamentalism, they should stop doing so in the name of God, as I used to joke, "If they're both saying "God's on my side, who's God siding with?"

2) Maybe people should learn that there's good in everybody, regarding their faith, as well as bad, either that or I want Ireland nuked off the face of the Earth for the crimes of the IRA, oh and they can nuke England back in return...etc.

3) We can control who and what kind of people we want in our country, but a lot of rights will be lost in the process, is that something that people will be willing to loose?

4) There are such things as white/black/Jewish/human etc "terrorists" as well, I do not forget that I've got a better chance of being raped in some parts of London, then I ever have of being blown up.

 

[lacsap1]

[quote author=ORCABOMBER link=board=99;num=1079308787;start=40#44 date=03/29/04 at 23:40:22]So, the greatest evil of mankind is Islam?[/quote]

So you didn't understand the problem.......

Fundamentalist Islam is not a race or an ethnicity; it is an ideology. Its critics are not racists, any more than critics of Nazi or Stalinist ideology are racists. And as an ideology, furthermore, Islamic fundamentalism is something that people can be drawn away from.

We are not advocating a non-committal approach here as "I don't care". What I'm talking about is a question of mutual obligations; Mulsim newcomers must do their bests to participate as fully as possible, here is your evil. The integration policy aims to realize a society in which members of the Muslim ethnic minority groups can fully realize their civil rights and fulfil their social responsibilities. This means a good command of the Dutch language, participation in public education and the labour market, respect for the law and society’s do's and don’ts and respect for everyone’s right to make use of their civil liberty. Everyone should feel responsible for the modern and liberal society and the people in it.

Maybe it's hard to explain that there is a big cultural friction between natives and the Muslim community?

How fare the you need to go with freedom of religion used in a country where the separation between church and state is in place.

Can a muslim man refuse to get a female docter at the hospital due to his religion and demanding a man docter? Can a muslim girl refuse to follow physical education (sport lessons) at school due to her religion and demanding "girls only" sport or swim classes?

It sounds maybe stupit for somebody who doens't care, but here the locals at very upset by this, especially as we have laws that man and woman are full equal...

so, ORCABOMBER, you probably don't care what kind of religion you neighbours practice or as you stated: I don't care. But when ties religious neighbours turn up your whole liberal society with conservative Koran-based laws I hope that you and your society will do care and protect your basic values of a European liberal democracy........

 

[13788]

ORCABOMBER: Lacsap, you make a very fair point.

But I'll state my ground, I don't partake in politics of any kind, I'll talk, but voting and desicion making are not something I will take responsibility for.

Yes, the Muslim community needs to learn integration in some aspects, but with the newer generations moving further away from the ideals of their parents (for better and for worse sometimes), we need to be able to at least treat them as citizens first.

I can't really disagree with you on your reckoning though, the problems you are having are similar to the ones in the UK, with the war on terror, Britain may be more paronoid than anywhere else at the moment.

This does remind me of the time Black people arrived to the UK, now there was a fuss!