Atheism , Agnosticism and Theism

[Captain Elephant]

Religion is simply man's response to a revelation. The revelation could be divine, it could be profane. Organized religion is what gets man in so much trouble. Want a real religion? Look into Native Americans or African beliefs. Those are so much more pure than what the organizers of Christianity and Judaism did to simple teachings.

Paul wrecked Christianity with his epistles warning us to forsake the flesh. His message goes so far beyond what Jesus said.

All organized religions are about control. Jewish laws against pork and shellfish were laws to protect. Celibacy was instituted to remove the concubines from rectories. Early Catholics were not allowed to read the Bible lest they come to their own conclusions.

This throttling of the human will is no more from God than ravings of lunatic evangelicals. If we were born in flesh why must be constantly be turning away from it? Why is this such a big test to live a good life? Once this flesh is gone it's useless. So why not use it while we have it?

I'm still unclear about the whole thing of living a good life, deny yourself here and you'll get your reward in heaven? Again, why the test? Why not just make me a part of heaven to begin with?

We humans come up with some crazy ideas sometimes.

 

[Phil Ayesho]

Phil, Christ never denied being being divine. And the term "son of man" is universally understood to be a Hebrew messianic term from the OT. Read up on your Daniel, please.

bullshit... he was directly asked TWICE in the gospels... ARE YOU THE SON OF GOD and he replies I am the son of man, but I will sit on the right hand of God in heaven. or words to that effect...


In Jewish culture, The right hand side of the patriarch is the First Son's place...
Jesus is saying , I am not the son of God, by I can sit in the place of his son.


This goes back to the primary flaw in Christian theology that created the first major schism in the church, the nestorian schism.

Christ, in quote plain language promised that anything HE could do, ANY MAN COULD DO.... had they the faith he had...
This was Christ's PROMISE of the perfectability of human spirituality.

When the Nicean council VOTED to make Christ divine, they essentially made this promise a lie, because how could any mere man become the son of God?

Jesus said he was a son of man, who had attained the spiritual perfection like unto son of God... and he promied that you could do it, too.

And then the catholics yanked that rug right out from under everybody.

You believe a lie told about a story that is not at all what you think it is.
Jesus was made divine long after the fact. Early Christians did not believe such nonsense.
And making Christ divine turned christianity from a religion of people who could strive for a condition of sinning no more..., into a religion for people who are defined as sinners.
This is why buddhism considers Jesus an avatar whose dharma was lost.

Saul of Tarsus, who became Paul after his conversion, was not the first to attest to the divinity of Jesus Christ. John made that very clear in the first lines of his Gospel. There is 2000 years of thought that backs this up & way too many Biblical sources to go into here.

There are older, more original copies of the gospels which disagree... John, and the others, were EDITED... several times.... Lots of stuff added in...

And lots of stuff taken out.

But Paul ( a famous drunkard) was the one who came up with the God/son of God FUSION... And modern christianity is mostly predicaqted upon the ravings in his epistles... rather than on the original promise of Christ.

As for religion doing more harm than good . . . Let's say the numbers of those who were burned at the stake, or whatever other form of death, during the Spanish Inquisition were true (& forget that it was the Spanish gov't who put the vast majority of those people to death, not the Catholic Church, per the historical record).

Sorry, you are incorrect... the Church and State in Spain were ONE entity.And the Stae put to death whoever the inquisition condemned....

But the number condemned is a trifle to the number killed during "questioning"... or who spent their lives in a prison without ever being condemned of anything.

And the inquisition is not the sole culprit... nearly every war fought in europe for 300 years was over religious differences. Every Jihad, what is going on in Iraq and Israel right now...
The Holocaust was Catholics and Lutherans killing Jews... The fighting in Northern Ireland, the bombing of abortion clinics... Thew war in Bosnia was over Religion, the genocides in Africa, about tribe and religion.

I could go on and on. And where religion is not the primary cause of violence and hatred and justification for killing other people... religion is a silent accomplice in doing NOTHING to stop violence.
The Pope never excommunicated Hitler. The ministers never condemned the abortion doctor murderer... and the threats of violence over some Danish cartoons? No major relgious leader in the world came out in condemnation of the fatwas that resulted in...

That number of dead would pale in comparison to the number of people who were murdered at the hands of Godless, athiestic totalitarian regimes of Hitler, Stalin, Mussoloini, Ceauşescu, etc in the 20th Century alone. But, yeah, Christianity sure has caused quite a lot of harm to the world.

See above, both Hitler and Mussolini where christians... Italy was officially a catholic state. And they were killing jews.

ANd to suggest that Stalin and Mao were atheists is hogwash... Totalitarianism is not atheism... its REPLACING worship of God with worship of the Despot. Stalin and Mao, Saddam and all the others, make themsleves into the object of superstitious worship. No different than the divinity of Ceasar...

They are as dogmatic as any religion.

But really... you have a weak sense of history... the despots of the world have killed a tens of millions....

Since the stone age... tens of Billions have been killed in the name of an imaginary friend.

Religion is just ONE MORE EXCUSE, for seeing others as different. For justifying immoral acts.
The Bible is 10 simple rules, followed by a thousand pages of how God orders people to violate those rules.

And if there WAS such a thing as Satan... the very BEST idea he could ever have some up with to make men evil was to invent religion.

 

[Xcuze]

Bravo Ayesho. If I ever get charged with murder please be my lawyer.

 

[JustAsking]

I think the reason for suffering is pretty simple. You can't know one without the other. You can't know love without hate, you can't know up without down, you can't know fat without skinny, you can't know happy without said... suffering and watching others suffer is exactly what allows us to be happy and experience happiness in others.

Meg,
Thank you very much for this. This is a very important point when worrying about God and suffering. Although one can point to egregious suffering all around the world, some of what we would consider suffering is something that we would rather not do without. For example, wouldn't it be nice to not feel pain? One would think so, but then one would accidently bite one's own tongue off accidently. Pain is as much a gift as it is a source of suffering.

I hereby incorporate Meg's Doctrine of Suffering into my theology.

...If insincere claims of belief are all it takes to mollify God... then God can not be any form of agent of truth....

In my new religion, we believe that all claims of belief are insincere to one degree or another. We would like to believe in God's infinite grace, but being human we are limited in our ability to sustain it. That means that whatever faith we have is also a gift from God. Through faith or through works humans do not have the means to bring about their own salvation. Naturally, we don't understand the notion of "being saved" by our own strength of conviction.

Even Simon Peter, on whom Jesus established his church, could not sustain his faith under duress. In fact no one, even those who walked by Jesus' side were sincere about their faith.

We discourage any attempt to make faith into a "work" in order to please God. If you ask anyone in my religion if they are "saved", they would answer, "Yes, I was saved 2000 years ago, and now every moment of my life. I only wish I had the ability to trust it forever."

...A vengeful God ( and any God that would create a hell must be pretty vengeful ) would be even more pissed off at Pascal than any ordniary non-believer, because Pascal is lying to get in.

In my religion, God already knows we are mostly lying to "get in." How could it be otherwise given our human limitations. But in my religion we are also not certain that hell is populated and we are especially not certain that God would not continue to draw us to himself after we leave this life. In other words, it would be ridiculous for God to base our eternal destiny only on the activities of our short and imperfect lives.

In fact, we believe that "hell" is a state that we maintain ourselves in voluntarily as we refuse to acknowledge God's love and unconditional forgiveness. It would be similar to a child being tortured by the fact that he refused to acknowledge his mothers love for him.

If there is a door in hell, it is only locked from the inside, and each occupant has a key to get out.

Yes, I did. God allows us to unite our sufferings to those of Christ on the cross &, in doing so, complete them. God the Son, the Lamb of God who became the perfect sacrifice no lamb could be under the old covenant, allows us to unite our imperfect sufferings to His. That alone, from the Christian perspective, gives our suffering meaning & value.

Why? Well, that's what I didn't get into in my previous post. Because, we can offer our sufferings to God to use as He sees fit in order to save souls. That's what it's all about in the Christian context: to get to heaven & be with God forever. God wills that all people be saved & be with Him in heaven forever. Those who don't make it have chosen not to be there. We can make the choice, just as Christ did, to unite our sufferings to His & He can use them to save others; we can chose to die to self & become more like Christ &, in doing so, be more fully human, moving toward Christ who was perfectly human. That's what's called a mystery in Christianity. Sorry, we can't know the details of everything in our earthly life. And that's not a cop-out answer, either. There are things we simply will not know this side of heaven. That's where faith comes in.

...

As for Christianity & Judiaism being "agnostic" religions when it comes to the human condition . . . well, no. The Bible, OT & NT, are all about the human condition! Is the parable of the prodigal son not about the human condition as experienced by virtually every human being on this earth? Of course it is. That parable alone explains so much about our choices & how they affect us & those around us & how we can always be delivered from our bad choices. It's also about how those who've made the good choices all along can still suffer.

We were not meant to suffer in the beginning. We humans brought that on ourselves. It did not come from God in any way. But God gives us an "out" as it were. We can make the choice that, if we must suffer, it can be used by God for good. What higher calling is there? To take something that is universally seen as a bad or evil thing & allow it to be transformed into a good to help others! I find deep & wonderous beauty in that. For my money, it's far more beautiful than anything in Buddhism.
....

Moochie,
Much of what you write rings true, and can also be readily found under the Christian tent. But my religion inteprets some things a little differently. Like I said, we are uncertain about a lot of things, and one of them is suffering. We do know that we have a God that sacrificed his son for us while the world was completely in sin. From this we feel that there is no one who God would have refused to do this for even if that person were the only person on earth. In other words, God would have sacrificed his son for Hitler as well as for Mother Theresa.

We also believe that in becoming completely mortal and succumbing to misery and suffering like anyone else, that God is capable of feeling every moment of any creature's misery and suffering. We feel that God is not in favor of any moment of that suffering, and we are hesitant to believe that any suffering is brought about deliberately to edify our lives or create maturity.

However, we do feel that God can bring good out of any suffering, and in his suffering he brought about the ultimate good.

We are also hesitant to feel that misery and suffering is some kind of payment for an original act of disobediance in the first man. We feel the story of The Fall, is an allegory that represents the moment when hominids attained the powers of intellection, including consciousness and self-awareness. This is important because it marks the moment when man attained the ability to discern good and evil and understand the consequences of his choices. Man became a moral creature when he became aware.

Finally, we acknowledge that all creatures in this world experience some form of misery and suffering. In fact that suffering can be so great that entire species can go extinct thus ending an entire way of being alive in the world. We believe that God is not in favor of any of this, and we feel that we do not know the purpose of it. However, we do know that God has promised that at some point in the future, misery and suffering will end. So we trust in that, and in the meantime do our part to alleviate it ourselves.

What about all the millions who have died from natural disasters? I suppose thats not Gods fault either? People are so quick to thank God when good things happen so why should he not take any blame too? When you start to look into the whole issue of what God is & isnt responsible for it rapidly gets ridiculous.

Yes, theodicy is the most difficult question of all.

Actually, from a Christian perspective, it's perfectly consistent, XCUZE. God does not cause natural disasters any more than He causes someone to get cancer or a cold. There's no blame to lay at God's feet for things like that. He is not capricious - in fact, He can't be because He is all love. Since none of us knows the time nor the circumstances of our deaths, God only asks that we follow Him & do His will. That way, we'll be with Him forever. If a Christian isn't actively helping out during natural disasters, or the poor in his/her own back yard, then that person isn't living his/her faith well to begin with.

Again, from the Christina POV, we were not meant to be in a world where disasters, disease, & death are everyday occurrences. In the beginning it was not so, the Bible tells us. But, as njqt466 pointed out above, we have free will. We can make the decision to live without God in our lives. God, respecting our free will, will allow us to have what we choose. He will not force us to accept His love. If we didn't follow Him, he'll respect that free will choice.

Moochie,
Once again, very nice theology from the point of view of my new religion. However, I need to add that in my religion we recognize that our own free will is somewhat limited. Just ask an addict about how much free will he has. The addict is a very good example because it is easy to see how the destructive forces of his own addiction are somewhat out of his control. But we feel that all men are addicts to one form of self-interest or another, and it is mostly out of their control by virtue of the fact that they are human.

As St. Paul says in Romans, "No one turns towards God." And he is right. Where the manditory sentencing of the Mosaic Covenant demands death for us "the wages of sin...", since we are incompetent to stand trial due to our addictions, we get rehabilitation instead. Instead of death, we get Jesus and unconditional love.

I still don't have any takers, yet, do I.

 

[deleted157868]

Im atheist.

 

[B_ScaredLittleBoy]

My belief is that it is hypocritical and in a sense clutching at straws (non existent straws) to believe in God (or gods) yet at the same time disbelieve in the many, many other gods that are or were said to exist at one time or another.

If any religion was real, would it not be the very first religion? And if you don't believe in the Dreamtime (which I assume to be the first creation 'explanation') - what makes you think your religion; God or gods is any more valid or "true"?

Why is religion #1 bullshit whilst religion #57 is the one true faith?

The historic evidence is that since Prehistoric Times man has devised a belief system, based on the supernatural. This pattern of man trying to explain the world around him continues to this day.

Except where religions give supernatural explanations, we now have science which explains the logic of nature. Supernatural causes for natural events have been proven to be made up. The morning sun is not pulled across the sky by a chariot and virgin births just do not occur.

Logically, based on verifiable and quantifiable evidence therefore either:

• All religions and all the deities are true and real
• None of the religions or deities are true and they were all inventions of man

Seeing as how a large percentage of religions past and present are regarded as bullshit, it seems very likely that no God or gods exist or ever existed and that all religions are just made up, lies and forms of control.

Lastly, a religious life is a very limited and restrained life. Which isn't healthy. Restraining yourself from life and from your instincts is the reason priests rape and abuse altar boys.

 

[JustAsking]

My belief is that it is hypocritical and in a sense clutching at straws (non existent straws) to believe in God (or gods) yet at the same time disbelieve in the many, many other gods that are or were said to exist at one time or another.

If any religion was real, would it not be the very first religion? And if you don't believe in the Dreamtime (which I assume to be the first creation 'explanation') - what makes you think your religion; God or gods is any more valid or "true"?

Why is religion #1 bullshit whilst religion #57 is the one true faith?

The historic evidence is that since Prehistoric Times man has devised a belief system, based on the supernatural. This pattern of man trying to explain the world around him continues to this day.

Except where religions give supernatural explanations, we now have science which explains the logic of nature. Supernatural causes for natural events have been proven to be made up. The morning sun is not pulled across the sky by a chariot and virgin births just do not occur.

Logically, based on verifiable and quantifiable evidence therefore either:

• All religions and all the deities are true and real
• None of the religions or deities are true and they were all inventions of man

Seeing as how a large percentage of religions past and present are regarded as bullshit, it seems very likely that no God or gods exist or ever existed and that all religions are just made up, lies and forms of control.

Lastly, a religious life is a very limited and restrained life. Which isn't healthy. Restraining yourself from life and from your instincts is the reason priests rape and abuse altar boys.

Scared,
Thanks for the opportunity to further refine my religion. I think it can accomodate your concerns.

In my religion, we think that all of the world's major religions contain great cosmic truths. If there was anything we could do to affect those religions would be to convince them that God loves everyone unconditionally. We don't want you to convert to our religion unless you want to. We just want you to know that God loves you.

As for personal behavior and instinct, my religion cares very little about those things. Personal perfection is a vain pursuit and it is selfish if it doesn't culminate in diminishing misery and suffering around you. My religion believes that God already knows about human frailty and limitation, and he loves us all regardless. In fact, nothing would make us happier than having our church full of hypocrites and felons on Sunday morning.

In my religion, one's relationship with God is no better than one's relationship with the person in the world that you love the least. Its not what we don't do that pleases God, it is what we do for others that pleases God.

Still no takers? Sheesh, religion building is not as easy as I though.

 

[Phil Ayesho]

...We also believe ....

That's a lot of believing with absolutely no proving.

Here's a religion for you...

This is it. Your one and only brief chance at existence, at being.
No one is watching, no one cares at all about why you do what you do except for those whom you directly help or harm in this short time of being.

If you make the world better or worse by your actions is your entire and only legacy...and your sole contribution... and none can offer you forgiveness other than those you have hurt.

Society is what has enabled you to live, and you, therefore, owe society a debt to be as productive and supportive a member of that society as you possibly can.
You survive by the right actions of others... you owe right action in return.

Do not hope for exculpation from above...nor from within... nor yearn for a fantasy of eternity.

Live here, now, and try your best not to cause more grief.

Set your standards for yourself high, and then spend your life learning to live up to them.

If no one is happy to see you go... if at least one good person sheds a tear at your passing... that is the only redemption life offers.

 

[deleted213967]

Still no takers? Sheesh, religion building is not as easy as I though.

My legitimate questions and concerns were not addressed. Please transfer me to a supervisor.

 

[JustAsking]

My legitimate questions and concerns were not addressed. Please transfer me to a supervisor.

Haha, Domi, you rock. Ok, which question should we address first with this new religion?

 

[JustAsking]

That's a lot of believing with absolutely no proving.

Here's a religion for you...

This is it. Your one and only brief chance at existence, at being.
No one is watching, no one cares at all about why you do what you do except for those whom you directly help or harm in this short time of being.

If you make the world better or worse by your actions is your entire and only legacy...and your sole contribution... and none can offer you forgiveness other than those you have hurt.

Society is what has enabled you to live, and you, therefore, owe society a debt to be as productive and supportive a member of that society as you possibly can.
You survive by the right actions of others... you owe right action in return.

Do not hope for exculpation from above...nor from within... nor yearn for a fantasy of eternity.

Live here, now, and try your best not to cause more grief.

Set your standards for yourself high, and then spend your life learning to live up to them.

If no one is happy to see you go... if at least one good person sheds a tear at your passing... that is the only redemption life offers.

Phil,
This sounds like stuff from The Desiderata. Or maybe from Hallmark Cards.

 

[D_Gunther Snotpole]

In my religion, one's relationship with God is no better than one's relationship with the person in the world that you love the least. Its not what we don't do that pleases God, it is what we do for others that pleases God.

Still no takers? Sheesh, religion building is not as easy as I though.

Hey, JA ... sign me up.
I'm buyin'.

 

[B_Nick4444]

from whence right or wrong? base or noble?

these precepts originate in, and are defined by religion, i.e., by God

That's a lot of believing with absolutely no proving.

Here's a religion for you...

This is it. Your one and only brief chance at existence, at being.
No one is watching, no one cares at all about why you do what you do except for those whom you directly help or harm in this short time of being.

If you make the world better or worse by your actions is your entire and only legacy...and your sole contribution... and none can offer you forgiveness other than those you have hurt.

Society is what has enabled you to live, and you, therefore, owe society a debt to be as productive and supportive a member of that society as you possibly can.
You survive by the right actions of others... you owe right action in return.

Do not hope for exculpation from above...nor from within... nor yearn for a fantasy of eternity.

Live here, now, and try your best not to cause more grief.

Set your standards for yourself high, and then spend your life learning to live up to them.

If no one is happy to see you go... if at least one good person sheds a tear at your passing... that is the only redemption life offers.

 

[psidom]

my mom was christian and my dad was jewish.
i am hermetic.

to me "god" is about combinations that unlock a connection
with the celestial.

YHVH is a pattern...
yod he vah heh(final)

it is a map of how creation begins and ends.
if you look the pattern is everywhere.
an example of it is

Y-plug
H-outlet
V-circuitry
H-light
the light is the final result...
this is a pattern that gives itself away alot.
same is with digestion,plant growth,sexual activity.

now i do not worship this "pattern"
i worship the pulse that keeps this pattern alive.
i believe it to be the sun...i am a sun worshipper,and moon.

 

[psidom]

go ahead...tell me i'm a crackpot.

 

[B_Nick4444]

tempted

but I actually know what you're referring to

 

[Axcess]

Actually, from a Christian perspective, it's perfectly consistent, XCUZE. God does not cause natural disasters any more than He causes someone to get cancer or a cold. There's no blame to lay at God's feet for things like that. He is not capricious - in fact, He can't be because He is all love. Since none of us knows the time nor the circumstances of our deaths, God only asks that we follow Him & do His will. That way, we'll be with Him forever. If a Christian isn't actively helping out during natural disasters, or the poor in his/her own back yard, then that person isn't living his/her faith well to begin with.

Again, from the Christina POV, we were not meant to be in a world where disasters, disease, & death are everyday occurrences. In the beginning it was not so, the Bible tells us. But, as njqt466 pointed out above, we have free will. We can make the decision to live without God in our lives. God, respecting our free will, will allow us to have what we choose. He will not force us to accept His love. If we didn't follow Him, he'll respect that free will choice.

Nope we don't really have free will . Our lives are shaped mainly from events or variables that we dont have control . If god is the creator of the world he created the world as it is with the good stuff and bad stuff . God would be responsible directly and indirectly from the good and bad events . Some believers would argue that god created lucifer and he choose the dark side and that god created adam and eve but they choice the dark side too but there is a problem . God by definition knows everything ( INLUDING PAST PRESENT AND FUTUTE . so he created Adam and Eve knowing that they will turn evil and he created Satan knowing the will turn evil too .

I will give some examples of why the free will idea is really bullshit and a delusion . We don't choose to been born . We don't choose our parents . We don't choose our brothers . We don't choose our childhood events ( want happen in our childhood mostly shaped our adult lives) We don't choose what others decided to do to us ( Others people actions often affect our lives ) We don't choose when to die . You can say what about the people that kill themselves ? Well those people suffer from depression and other mental sickness. ( SO THEY AREN'T REALLY FREE WHEN THEY COMMIT SUICIDE .
I forgot that we don't choose the gender that we were born ( I don't choose to be born male ) and we don't choose our sexual orientation too .

 

[JustAsking]

Nope we don't really have free will . Our lives are shaped mainly from events or variables that we dont have control . If god is the creator of the world he created the world as it is with the good stuff and bad stuff . God would be responsible directly and indirectly from the good and bad events . Some believers would argue that god created lucifer and he choose the dark side and that god created adam and eve but they choice the dark side too but there is a problem . God by definition knows everything ( INLUDING PAST PRESENT AND FUTUTE . so he created Adam and Eve knowing that they will turn evil and he created Satan knowing the will turn evil too .

I will give some examples of why the free will idea is really bullshit and a delusion . We don't choose to been born . We don't choose our parents . We don't choose our brothers . We don't choose our childhood events ( want happen in our childhood mostly shaped our adult lives) We don't choose what others decided to do to us ( Others people actions often affect our lives ) We don't choose when to die . You can say what about the people that kill themselves ? Well those people suffer from depression and other mental sickness. ( SO THEY AREN'T REALLY FREE WHEN THEY COMMIT SUICIDE .
I forgot that we don't choose the gender that we were born ( I don't choose to be born male ) and we don't choose our sexual orientation too .

I have to agree with you, Ax. The reason why some Christians stress the free will thing is because they believe that the strength of conviction of their faith brings about their salvation. "Have you accepted Jesus as your Lord and Savior"? They have made faith into a work.

My answer is that all of us believers accept Jesus about as well as the returning Prodigal Son. If you remember, the Prodigal is returning reluctantly because he has hit rock bottom. This is no transformation of faith going on here. He is returning with a scam about working for his father as a hired because at least the food will be better than the pig swill he is forced to work with out of country.

This is the thing the "saved" guys miss. The son is returning with a scam and doesn't even get a chance to pitch it before the old man sees him coming up the road way off in the distance. The old man then runs down the road grinning like an idiot and runs up to embrace the non-repentent son before he gets a chance to say anything.

This is all the free will the no-account son can muster and the father could care less about it, because his forgiveness is unconditional.

 

[Drifterwood]

Regarding theodicy.

It seems to me to be the antithesis of empirical science.

In science someone has a theory. Others test that theory, and either prove it or disprove it in whole or in part and develop it or discard it or accept it occasionally.

The role of theodicy is to disprove any questioning of the dogmatic theory of god, let's call it heresy. This is why to the non believing observer you find the most ridiculous circular reductio ad absurdum arguments used in any attempt to preserve the sanctity of the dogma.

This is ironic, because the jewish and christian god evolved a very long way from Moses' original. JA's new denomination sits proudly in this long tradition of god evolution, though I will be interested to hear his arguments to square the use of duallisms to support monotheism.

 

[Axcess]

I have to agree with you, Ax. The reason why some Christians stress the free will thing is because they believe that the strength of conviction of their faith brings about their salvation. "Have you accepted Jesus as your Lord and Savior"? They have made faith into a work.

My answer is that all of us believers accept Jesus about as well as the returning Prodigal Son. If you remember, the Prodigal is returning reluctantly because he has hit rock bottom. This is no transformation of faith going on here. He is returning with a scam about working for his father as a hired because at least the food will be better than the pig swill he is forced to work with out of country.

This is the thing the "saved" guys miss. The son is returning with a scam and doesn't even get a chance to pitch it before the old man sees him coming up the road way off in the distance. The old man then runs down the road grinning like an idiot and runs up to embrace the non-repentent son before he gets a chance to say anything.

This is all the free will the no-account son can muster and the father could care less about it, because his forgiveness is unconditional.

I'm agnostic not a believer but
yes the main point of true Christianity would be that we aren't free . We need God and Jesus to help us to get liberated and saved . Humans can't saved themselves without help so they need Jesus . That's the reason of why Jesus don't like people judging others because we don't know what events or variables influenced people in their choices . Sorry for my typos. My last post have many of them but I was really tired when I wrote that post .