Attire at work and men

[twoton]

As the supervisor, do you function as HR, if there isn’t an HR person?

And really, you’d not do your own job based on gender (get one of the women to do it)?

And having a woman do it was the advice of one of our lawyers, who is a woman.

 

[deleted924715]

There's a big obstacle with that. Men--at least the men I'm around 99% of the time--don't do these things when other guys are around. It would come as a complete surprise to me if one of the guys I know is a workplace harasser.

Case in point: We had a guy at the office who I had to redirect to another career path. Mostly it was incompetence.

AFTER he was gone, I heard a couple stories from women about things he had said to them. He never said anything like that in my presence in the 15 years I'd known him, most of which were before I was the boss and there would've been no risk of my hearing it. I asked the women, "Why didn't you tell me?" If they had, I would've canned him a lot sooner.

Their answer was, "We took care of it ourselves." As a matter of fact, they still haven't told me anything he said, only that he had said it.

Anyway, I'm not defending inaction on the part of men. However, it's hard to take action when you don't know it's happening.

I have heard comments from women at work and from female friends and relatives about harassment. They all say that it happens. It's common. It's part of life. It's their shared experience. Sometimes they'll hear about an incident and react with, "Get over it, honey." "Grow a thicker skin." A young woman left our employment (voluntarily) and one of the senior leadership staff (a woman) said, "Good riddance. She's a walking human relations complaint waiting to happen."

Why is it only now that it's getting such exposure? Do you know the first sexual harassment lawsuit wasn't heard until 1986? 1986?!

I don't think I would agree with the 99% figure. Certain behaviour is so widely accepted or part of the culture, be it office or elsewhere, that it does not require privacy to get away with it. Your comment about it's acceptance as a fact of life amongst the women would appear to support that.

A culture does not get to be so prevalent without a certain amount of wilful ignorance - it's a little strange that you don't know that there is harassment (I assume harassment, you didn't specify) going on, but you are privvy to every bitchy comment directed by a woman to a woman. Maybe you are blind to it because it doesn't affect you personally/interest you?

I don't think sitting back waiting for someone to whistleblow when, from how you tell it they know they would get no support from colleagues, is very proactive, or conducive to changing the culture. You know know that it has happened at least once. Maybe sexual harassment awareness training is in order - let those who harass know that it is unacceptable in the workplace and will not be tolerated and that anyone shaming a victim for coming forwards is in the wrong, not the victim. These would appear to be far more important issues than the length of someone's skirt or the height of their heels IMO.

I'm not sure where you're going with these comments that women have supposedly made, so I'll leave it there.

 

[deleted924715]

And having a woman do it was the advice of one of our lawyers, who is a woman.

And she didn't advise that an official dress code should be introduced to avoid this recurring?? Your workplace sounds a little... odd

 

[twoton]

I don't think sitting back waiting for someone to whistleblow when, from how you tell it they know they would get no support from colleagues, is very proactive, or conducive to changing the culture. You know know that it has happened at least once.

I took care of it when there had been an incident reported to me.

From a legal and workplace policy standpoint, any incident of harassment has to be reported in order for the victim to have standing. That's not my opinion, that's pretty much the legal standard.

In any case, I don't want to box myself in here, because we actually have a strong policy that I helped draft, it got a thumbs up by people who handle workplace/employment lawsuits, and has the confidence of our staff.

 

[deleted924715]

I took care of it when there had been an incident reported to me.

From a legal and workplace policy standpoint, any incident of harassment has to be reported in order for the victim to have standing. That's not my opinion, that's pretty much the legal standard.

In any case, I don't want to box myself in here, because we actually have a strong policy that I helped draft, it got a thumbs up by people who handle workplace/employment lawsuits, and has the confidence of our staff.

Well you just described a culture in which coming forwards is frowned upon... Policy is not the same as culture.

 

[MisterB]

Management of people can be extremely rewarding and just as frustrating at times. Simply put--Managing human resources is not for everyone.

As a former senior-level Federal government manager, I had numerous resources at my disposal to address perceived attire infractions. I had a "dress code" policy, as well as equal employment rules and regulations for support. I had a full human resources department, including experts in workplace conduct and decorum. There is also Federal case law that our legal eagles would rely on in providing advice and guidance. In my (too vast) experience with this issue, there is no one-size solution to address perceived inappropriate workplace dress. Each situation is unique.

I believe the OP also indicated the problem-attired female employee had some performance issues. They must be dealt with separately and distinctly; there is simply no connection between performance and attire in an office environment that I've ever seen.

As far as addressing inappropriate attire complaints from employees, this can be a slippery slope. Proceed with caution. I strongly suggest documenting each communication you receive regarding inappropriate attire. That's because management can be accused by the complaining parties of promoting a hostile work environment if their stated concerns are perceived to be ignored.

I'll give you two quick examples: (1) Female employee with a very large bust in revealing and skimpy tops, even in winter time. (2) Male employee with sculpted bodybuilder physique wearing too-tight, too-small t-shirts on casual Fridays, even in winter. I received several complaints about both employees.

I applied the same solution to both cases--I knew the two employees; both had been matched with workplace mentors to help with their career progression. I talked with both mentors, and asked their input on how they felt we should proceed. I had HR professionals with me in these meetings. Both mentors said they would handle the situation without either employee aware of any negative complaints.

Both employees "got the message" without it escalating any further. I am a firm believer in resolving issues like this with the least amount of "fanfare". Neither employee was aware of the complaints. In time, both were promoted to other positions within the Agency.

Will this work in private industry? I don't know. But any decent-size company should have human resources officers and experts who are there to provide the advice, guidance and most importantly, support for you as a manager.

I know my experience is just that, my experience, but I wanted to weigh in with what worked for me. Your mileage may vary...please excuse the lengthy post.

 

[Enid]

Or leggings and very high heels with shirts that didn’t cover her booty. And we know what Tim Gunn said, “Leggings are not pants.”

Why does her booty need to be covered by a shirt? (As long as she's got pants on, and they aren't see-through or whatever.)

What is your deal with high heels?

AND LEGGINGS ARE PANTS. (I mean as long as they are sensible and of durable material, I guess. Hell I wear yoga pants a TON and those are basically leggings. I don't always wear them to work, but after work or on the weekends fuck yeah I am rocking my favorite yoga pants and Harry Potter t-shirt and comfortable runners. At work I might wear the yoga pants if I am doing production work. I don't want to be wearing a dress or skirt at those times. And I am so over jeans.)

 

[twoton]

What is your deal with high heels?

Oy, enough with the heels already! I’m ok with the heels. I said I was ok with the heels.

 

[MickeyLee]

My company is small. I mostly employ friends. The only dress code is "keep anything you don't want to get caught in the machinery under wraps"
I care more about the job they are doing than what they are wearing. When client meetings are required I insist on casual and comfortable. Let's face it, people don't show up at my office expecting business suits. We're artists and fringe dwellers. We dress accordingly.

 

[sizehungry]

Most women I have met/known during my working life , have dressed according to common sense . That is to say , a blend of attire based on the employers requirement , and comfort . Indeed , I have seen exceptions , but , in my experience , the former , far outweighs the latter . Frankly , if I'm paying the wages , I don't give a flying fuck what she wears to work , just as long as she gives her best effort on the day , and is comfortable while doing that , upon which I'll pay her the same rate that a man would earn , plus a little more , as i always did for good employees , regardless of gender . Only if it's too over the top , would I intervene .

 

[twoton]

As a former senior-level Federal government manager, I had numerous resources at my disposal to address perceived attire infractions. I had a "dress code" policy, as well as equal employment rules and regulations for support. I had a full human resources department, including experts in workplace conduct and decorum. There is also Federal case law that our legal eagles would rely on in providing advice and guidance. In my (too vast) experience with this issue, there is no one-size solution to address perceived inappropriate workplace dress. Each situation is unique.

Well. To maybe reveal too much--I'm a senior level state government manager of a small agency. I have no dress code to follow. We had no personnel policy to speak of when I was promoted to my position several years ago. A couple of the senior staff attorneys and I wrote it ourselves. There was no one other than us to review and and "approve' it. I have no human resources department to rely on aside from matters like employee benefits and pensions. I'm not sure I have any back-up on workplace harassment matters, either. I asked about it and the "higher ups" said they'd have to get back to me with an answer.

 

[286798]

Different office environments call for different dress codes. I've worked in all sorts of environments... ones where I had to wear a uniform, ones where jeans & work boots were appropriate, and ones where suits were called for. Although work performance is the primary concern, how you present yourself and represent your employer is a consideration in promotability. I think it happens with men, too, but I think it's more likely to happen with women. Like you said, women can wear skirts of various lengths/tightness, pants/leggings and it's hard to address everything in a policy. Guys in many offices wear Garanimals... pants and polo or pants and button down. Easy peasy to address.

I worked with a girl who worked hard and did a good job, but dressed absolutely inappropriately for our very conservative engineering company. She was not exactly a small woman, but wore dresses that resembled sausage casings and/or showed significant cleavage or leg, and no kidding 6" or 7" stripper shoes. Her (female) boss had previously talked to her about it not being right for the culture of our office, but the employee chose to read the dress code and since there was nothing about how tight/revealing or heel hight, she made no changes. When she was passed over for a promotion that would have given her significant interaction with both clients and our senior leadership, she expressed her frustration to me and asked me why I thought she didn't get the job. I told her as kindly as I could that it was how she dressed. She was so desperate for attention that she was willing to take negative attention. She dressed like a joke and people treated her like she was a joke. They didn't see her work product because she led with her crazy attire. She dialed it back and was then promoted.

Re: a man addressing inappropriate attire... it SHOULDN'T matter. In a professional environment, the focus should be on the message, not if it's a guy/girl delivering it. Idealistic, I know. In the instance above, I think that sausage-dress girl would have listened to a male boss and made the change OR would have immediately gone to HR to claim sexual harassment, and nothing in between. She was a hot-mess-express.

 

[deleted924715]

That's the thing. If there isn't a policy then management take their chances if they say something. If it's an environment where it could be an issue/ have a negative impact they really should have a policy - we all know people who aren't concerned with such things/ like to make a point/ honestly can't see it/ genuinely think they look good/ genuinely do look good/ enjoy attention/ enjoy expressing themselves through how they dress etc. It really is entirely predictable to end up in a situation where it's one vs the majority, because that's people. That's why larger employers tend to have a policy for everything. If it is policy, nobody is being singled out, it takes the pressure off the manager of having to make a judgement call they could end up on the receiving end of a grievance about.

But

These things have a way of sorting themselves out usually. If there is no policy, yeah technically you can wear whatever - but you don't get to control the bias of others. You can't wear what you want and demand nobody forms an opinion about you - because that's also human nature. If you choose not to take the temperature and fit in, then you likely will be passed over. I look at a hairdressers own hair before I let them touch mine. It might be about the attitude more than the clothes. You might be wearing what you want, but nobody is required to humour you. I often wear leggings to the office, because I want to be comfortable at my desk. However, if I have meetings I step it up because leggings would be inappropriate. My boss appeciates that I make the distinction. In an environment where attire is irrelevant... live and let live *shrug*

 

[693987]

I wanted to add that part of why my last employer's dress code was so strict is our CEO and so on might stop by at any time, as well as potential business partners. So the dress code was very thorough and I adhered very carefully to it.

 

[Galloper]

What’s your position on a male supervisor telling a female employee that her attire is inappropriate for the office/workplace?

I am a male supervisor and I had a female employee who frequently dressed inappropriately. Other female employees commented to me about her attire, but I never addressed it with her.

If I were to have taken action, there’s no way I would’ve been the one to say anything. I would’ve had one of the women do it.

If you are the supervisor, you should do it, but not necessarily alone. There is a female supervisor that can do it with you?

 

[AlteredEgo]

In my last job I had to look fun and affluent. Tough balance. I wore loud hairstyles that my boss's boss didn't really like, but the manual read, "fashionable" and it was. One of my underlings was my stylist, and we consulted the boss and the manual before adding my fuscia highlights to what was a paige boy in the front, and a bob in the back, and later, what is now called oil slick coloring to a pin curled bob. It passed, and customers loved it.

I worked hard, pushed my team hard, and my record was above reproach. But my appearance was very important, and my boss made that very clear.

I dressed according to the manual which said I needed blue jeans or black slacks, a black belt, black polo shirt, or a black dress shirt with collar, that had to be tucked in unless the lower hem was scalloped and the bust had darts, and black shoes.

Unless I had to do a floor move, I wore a dress shirt with scalloped hem, black slacks, and black pumps, because I felt management should not dress casually there. I was specifically told management needed to look like we had money to burn, so I wore gemstones in my ears, and a fancy watch, and kept my hair, nails and shoes immaculate. I wore my sapphire engagement ring, Which was very unique in design, eye catching, and had a huge central stone. Many mistook it for a blue diamond and asked me about it. My clothes were tailored, and sometimes hand was made. I was told I had to look fun, thus the wild hair. I generally showed cleavage, which received zero complaints, and I assume also looked fun. Most of the customers were wealthy men from Central and south America who were only too happy to let me take them by the arm and point out everything I loved in the store, and generally paid for whatever I suggested, especially once they realized I'd be honest about items of poor quality, and things that were frequently returned.

The easiest job was at the front of the store flying toy helicopters and drones, or playing with other toys. My team quickly caught on that I only sent the most attractive and presentable to do that job, and aligned their appearances and demeanors accordingly. My underlings were fresh-faced kids, (not minors) and in deliberate contrast I wore expensive make up, full-face like date night every day. I was easily identifiable as in charge just by glance despite insane hair, so much so that people would stop me in other stores from other chains and fully expect they were speaking to a manager.

Since I'd send home anyone out of code, the dress code was strictly adhered to. I forgot a belt one day, and was also sent to Macy's to rectify the problem. I never forgot my belt again, and to this day detest that overpriced thing. My wardrobe cheat was a beloved pair of dark gray slacks which occasionally drew the ire of my boss. But... So comfy.

The only thing that was ever spoken of was the time I showed up without make-up on the day the CEO was coming. I had been running late, and figured I'd find time at work to do my face. My boss noticed and complained. My skin is decent enough it still looked like I was made up, but with inferior products. My boss said, "You don't look like you're wearing high end make up today." Her tone was very disapproving. I told her my plan and she immediately took over my job and sent me to put on the face. It was that important to her.

The guys working there, including other managers never had to do more than wash their faces and groom facial hair. They never wore slacks, always jeans. They usually wore sneakers. No one ever assumed the male managers were in charge unless they asked for a manager and one of them replied. This wasn't important to my boss. I don't know if it was because I'm black or because I'm female, but my boss was only pleased with my appearance when I was dressed up, and made up. She was similar with another female manager, but much more insistent with me. The other female manager kept to the dress code, but was usually casual, and wore fewer cosmetics and no jewelry.

It is entirely possible to enforce these dress codes literally, and still unfairly.

 

[twoton]

If you are the supervisor, you should do it, but not necessarily alone. There is a female supervisor that can do it with you?

Yes--in leadership positions, not necessarily supervisory.

 

[palakaorion]

Only once have I needed to address someone's wardrobe; oddly it was my supervisor at the time. She had recently been promoted so we were previously peers.

Her nipples were prominently visible through her undergarments and her top; they weren't ever before. Once is an accident; twice is a coincidence; three times in a week is a pattern. I was a gentleman and averted my eyes as often as possible, but it was difficult not to notice when she would walk up to me as I was seated at my workstation.

I approached the director, who was her supervisor and another woman, bringing the matter to her attention. I should at this point mention my supervisor was a Chinese immigrant, and both the director and I are white. Our company had recently had to defend in a couple EEO cases, so management was leery of "poking any bears."

Director offers something to the effect of "prominent nipples may be a Chinese cultural thing" (which I found odd). I counter with "as an immigrant woman supervisor in a tech field, she already has an uphill battle being taken seriously; being upstaged by her nipples isn't helping, and not everyone is as gentlemanly as me."

Director had a conversation with supervisor. Supervisor must have made the necessary adjustments because the issue didn't recur. Nobody got written up, supervisor was able to demonstrate she deserved the promotion, no EEO suits files.

 

[LaBellaPorca]

Maybe I'm OT but.. anyway, many times I was asked by my shop's supervisor to wear higher heeled-shoes and tight leggings in order to have more clients in the shop...

 

[622675]

As Roseanne Rosannadanna would say, “it is always something”.

For a number of years I worked in a government engineering office environment where several of the male managers competed with each other for female assistants.

They would spend huge amounts of time working to up grade position descriptions so that they could entice the “most attractive” person to leave their current position and take a promotion. Male managers used an unwritten set of standards to single out the female assistants to be competed over. Those standards definitely included sexually attractive body features, dress, and attitude.

Along with upgrading a position, managers would also work (behind the scene) with the potential new assistant in order to upgrade her resume so as to fit the position.

In retrospect this may have been the Air Force version of the casting couch. However, the end result was not for direct sexual favors, but to win the game of “trophy assistant”.

As a side bar: Lets face it, when women with nice bodies wear high heals it has the impact of lifting the butt, making the legs appear longer, and often provides a bit of strut to her walk.

I know of at least one Air Force building that received new flooring on all four levels with the single objective that spike heel shoes could be worn with best result.