August Poll - Your Choice For President - 2004

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Javierdude22: I must have misread in the LA Times that Bush is getting 49% and Kerry 46% in the latest polls, and that his attempts to discredit the heroism of Kerry are probably the main cause. In the LA Times poll it has been a long time since Bush came out first.

Again..it's all fine and dandy that Kerry is doing stuff to oppose smearing tactics...but he seems to be preaching to the choir as far as people hearing what he has to say about Bush goes. A very simple sign of that is that Kerry being discredited for his heroism is hitting European news big time, whilst your #2 might get a one paragraph mention in the Herald Tribune, while other newspapers disregard it. Why? Because no one really knows what the friggin difference between two Air Force branches are...while the langauge spoken by Bush: This man is lying about his act of heroism, is clearcut and juicy material.

All of Kerry's great attempts aside...you didnt respond to one thing: Do you really think Kerry will win the coming election? Regardless of whether you wánt him to win...do you think he will?
 

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Absolutely.

With regard to the LA Times poll; surely you understand enough on statistics to appreciate that a single poll showing a three-point difference, which also has a margin of error of three points, is scant evidence upon which to draw a conclusion. For comparison, last week's CBS News poll shows Kerry ahead by a small margin; polls by Zogby, AP, and Time from this month also show Kerry ahead.

More importantly -- as the 2000 election illustrated -- it's not the overall popular vote, but the distribution of that popular vote which determines the outcome of the US presidential election, and on that measure, out of 44 surveys from the week of 8/22, Kerry led in 36 of them.

But let me be clear on this: I don't think it will be enough for John Kerry to receive 270 electoral votes and thereby "win" the election. In order to regain the confidence and support of our allies abroad, American voters must repudiate the past four years. Kerry needs to win a clear and compelling mandate that leaves no doubt to the rest of the world that Americans are as horrified by the Bush administration as they are. Squeaking by with a 270-268 victory would not be sufficient to do that.
 

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Originally posted by mindseye@Aug 26 2004, 01:41 PM
I'm not sure where you're getting your news from, but you've wholly misrepresented what's going on in this country.

First of all, Kerry's definitely getting the message across about Bush's smear tactics. Here is his latest campaign ad, which shows pretty effectively that attacking the patriotism of a veteran is a pattern of behavior for Bush.

Second, Democrats are exposing Bush's misrepresentation of his own military record. In an earlier campaign, Bush claimed to have served in the Air Force, instead of the Air National Guard (the latter requires much less commitment.)

Third, Kerry's team exposed a link between the Bush campaign and the 527 organization that ran the attack ads: Ben Ginsburg served for both organizations and has since resigned from the Bush campaign. Legally, this may not constitute sufficient coordination to disqualify SVFT's 527 status, but read on . . .

Fourth, and this has not broken in mainstream media yet, so you may be hearing this first: One of the actors in the SVFT ad, Ken Cordier, also served on a Bush campaign advisory committee. (Source). This, in the eyes of the FEC, probably will be a strong enough link to disqualify SVFT from its 527 status.
Good points all, mindseye.

The trouble is, I'm not sure anyone's mind is changing due to revelations such as those you posted. From my limited perspective, I sense only that people's positions are hardening on either side.

I work in an office filled with educated, thoughtful, motivated professionals, virtually all of whom I respect alot. Its a group who can think their way rationally through problems and come up with solutions. Yet, among this same group there are plenty who think George Bush is doing a great job as president and think Kerry deserves the smears being leveled against him. I have even heard Vietnam vets in my office agree. With these attitudes, I despair that rational thought, civility and respect will ever resurface.

Finally, I regrettably agree with Javier that Kerry is allowing himself to play into the GOP's hands by being on the defensive so much. I fear that his attempts to garner pity or sympathy are simply going to make him appear a pathetic figure, picked on by the bullies of the right. Complaining to the election commission is hardly a strategy to win. Clinton took worse jabs without giving in, so can Kerry.

Mark me a pessimist.

SG
 

MisterMark

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Originally posted by Javierdude22@Aug 26 2004, 03:28 AM
Quickly:

Who actually believes Kerry will win the coming elections, regardless of whether you wánt him to win.

Even though the tactics are hardly ethical, I must hand it to Dubya: he knows how to campaign...and how to smudge a persons track record.

Other people (probably with links 2 Bush) discredit Kerry.

Bush says he wants nothing to do with the ads, his conscience is clean in the eye of the majority of American Voters (apparently, judging from the last LA times poll).

Kerry: Boohoo...Bush is having other people discredit me!

How does Kerry look: like a passive whining lil kid. Bush: The same as always, dense but firm.

Either Kerry simply doesnt know how to get the message across, or he has some exceptionally in experienced campaign advisors.
I disagree with you, Javier (as I often do). Kerry is responding in a very mature way, in my opinion. What do you want him to do - ignore the allegations? That doesn't work - we've seen it happen in the past. You can't sit there and play "nice guy" while the other guy trashes you.

Unfortunately, I do somewhat agree with you about the outcome of the election. Kerry has been ahead for weeks (check out www.race2004.net), but I have a feeling in my gut that Bush is going to win. :(
 

714goodguy

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Mark,

Thanks for the www.race2004.net link. I have been looking for a site just like that one for some time. :D

While most polls do show Kerry in the lead right now, I too have a sinking feeling that Bush is going to win. And with it another four years of decline and moving backwards. :ph34r:
 

B_RoysToy

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Will I ever learn to keep my 'strange' thoughts to myself? I'm close to thinking that if citizens of The United States are stupid enough to elect the shrub to four more years, the continued decline and moving backwards will be just punishment.
But, then I realize the wealthy will bask in more money rolling in and the majority sink deeper in the hole. We have survived for 215 years, so I'm encouraged and
will be patiently waiting for the election of 2008, unless the 18 to 25 year olds flock to the polls in November and save us.

Luke, one who has seen 19 elections for Presidents.
 

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I agree with you, RoysToy.

I caught about an hour of the Republicans putting their platform together yesterday. For a group of people who claim that abstinence is the best lifestyle, they sure do talk a lot about sex! :lol: They spent the entire hour talking about sex education (abstinence should be the only thing taught in schools), abortion (abortion should be illegal), and marriage (gays need not apply).

They ended their meeting debating whether or not to include something about the Republican Party being a "big tent party" and that "diverse opinions are welcome". Yeah, right. <_< The woman leading the group said she was "offended" by the idea that they would even need to include such language. "Unlike the other party, it is obvious that we are open to people from all walks of life", she insisted.

I almost thought I was watching a parody of the Republicans on Saturday Night Live.
 

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And most of them are going to vote the way Fox News (unfair and unbalanced) tells them to. Even the public is speaking in "sound bites" which are just echo&#39;s of the same daily, endless diatribe orchestrated for (or by) the GOP...and the money folks and zealots even further to the right than the party is.

RoysToy, I agree, but if the shrub wins, can only HOPE there WILL be another election. "Just punishment" if we have indeed started WW III ??? Scary beyond comprehension if one does some reading about middle east history and thinking today.

It is getting harder and harder to climb up on my soapbox...much to the relief of all I am sure. :rolleyes:
 

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That&#39;s not all about SVFT, mindseye; it turns out they&#39;re headed by one Ted Sampley. He&#39;s been scamming the families of POWs and MIAs for years.
 

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Oh, I forgot to mention: Watch out for more Florida action. If any such behavior occurs, I will contend that EVERYONE who voted for Bush is insane and thus under most states&#39; election laws unable to vote. My evidence? He lied to us to start a war, everyone knows he lied to us to start a war, and yet they vote for him.
 
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Javierdude22:
Originally posted by MarkSavage@Aug 26 2004, 05:23 PM
I disagree with you, Javier (as I often do).  Kerry is responding in a very mature way, in my opinion.  What do you want him to do - ignore the allegations?  That doesn&#39;t work - we&#39;ve seen it happen in the past.  You can&#39;t sit there and play "nice guy" while the other guy trashes you.

Unfortunately, I do somewhat agree with you about the outcome of the election.  Kerry has been ahead for weeks (check out www.race2004.net), but I have a feeling in my gut that Bush is going to win.  :(
I try my best Mark :)

But you seem to miss my point. Yes, Kerry is responding in a very mature way...he would get a thumbs up if my future daughter (right) would bring sucha clean cut guy home...However, mature doenst win elections in the US. Weve seen mature lose 4 years ago to everything immature embodies, and it might (and I think will) happen again.

My point is that he should become the tough MF Bush is in his campaign. Pro active is the word...and Kerry is not very pro-active. Why is he bringing up that Rumsefld should resign again? Because it was said now that he knew about Abu Ghraib? Crap...everyone knew that 5 months ago and the debate on whether he should leave was silenced back then already. Don&#39;t bring up has beens.

Why is Kerry deserving (or not) that medal for heroism such big news in Europe, and why isn&#39;t Bushs drinking and drugs problems, his daughters drinking and driving, his bad track record as a businessman, and all the lies on Iraq? I really don&#39;t know to be honest. It&#39;s not like I have the answer for Kerry, all I&#39;m saying is that most of his reactions to Bush allegations even make me think: stop whining.

If like Bush you need to find allies on tv (like Bush & Fox) so they will air bad Bush publicity, then do it. Mind you, don&#39;t make it like an ad...put rumours forward as facts again, much like Fox. CNN is already labeled liberal, why even let the Republicans have a say on there? Only invite liberals. Yes, I&#39;m babbeling....but I&#39;m worried. Much like someone said already, I too fear four more years of Bush will mean the world as we know it will change unrecognizably.

With regard to the LA Times poll; surely you understand enough on statistics to appreciate that a single poll showing a three-point difference, which also has a margin of error of three points, is scant evidence upon which to draw a conclusion. For comparison, last week&#39;s CBS News poll shows Kerry ahead by a small margin; polls by Zogby, AP, and Time from this month also show Kerry ahead.

Mindseye: I am aware that different polls show different predictions. My point was, like I said before, that in the LA TImes poll, Bush hadn&#39;t come ahead of Kerry in a long time. So, with the same type of polling they have been doing over a certain period of time, a significant change of 3% was noted. I am pretty sure the margin of error didnt suddenly widen with the latest poll, and thus the change can be called statistically significant and worrysome, especially since it coincides with the latest Vet discussions.
 

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Originally posted by Javierdude22@Aug 26 2004, 07:14 PM
However, mature doenst win elections in the US. Weve seen mature lose 4 years ago to everything immature embodies, and it might (and I think will) happen again.
Of course; 4 years ago, more voters chose "mature" over "immature". "Immature" was selected by a cadre of five conservative justices -- no amount of pro-active campaigning would change that sort of thing.

You say you "fear four more years of Bush", but your labeling of Kerry as a whiner sure isn&#39;t helping things.

Mindseye: I am aware that different polls show different predictions. My point was, like I said before, that in the LA TImes poll, Bush hadn&#39;t come ahead of Kerry in a long time. So, with the same type of polling they have been doing over a certain period of time, a significant change of 3% was noted.


I double-checked the figures. The July LA Times poll was 48K-46B; the August LA Times poll was 49B-46K. Neither candidate&#39;s percentage changed by greater than the margin of error. There is a possibility that the SVFT ads have hurt Kerry&#39;s standing in the polls (I agree that some damage is likely) -- but the LA Times data is insufficient to reject the null hypothesis that the SVFT ads had no effect. Your assertion that the change is statistically significant is unsupported -- however, it probably is psychologically significant, given the way cable news have presented the results.
 
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Javierdude22: I see your point on the LA Times poll, let&#39;s just hope it doesn&#39;t become a trend.

Of course; 4 years ago, more voters chose "mature" over "immature". "Immature" was selected by a cadre of five conservative justices -- no amount of pro-active campaigning would change that sort of thing.

You say you "fear four more years of Bush", but your labeling of Kerry as a whiner sure isn&#39;t helping things

I disagree, I think the lack of pro-active campaigning on the Democratic side is the initial cause justices were needed in the first place. My point being: The Deomcrats had everything on their side except morality four years ago...Bush had a bad trackrecord and was inexperienced to the point of dumb, without him hiding it even. Democrats should have won with a higher difference....they didnt.

Nów however, Bush has 4 years on his name...four years which half of the US seems to agree with, so now the game is gonna be tougher. And if even now the level of pro-active campagning is as low as it is, then the Democrats must really not want to get in the White House again.

I have to say your last remark is a bit silly, and something I note among fervent Democratic supporters. I can support Kerry, but think he is whiner, and criticize the hell out of him. It won&#39;t bring down his chance of winning ya know...critique might help him win. The thing is, I suspect he surrounded him with blind supporters not willing to self criticize as well. Let&#39;s hope he get&#39;s the idea fast.
 

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"Sure, I support Dukakis, but boy, he sure looks dumb in that tank&#33; And who gave Willie Horton the weekend off?"

Constructive criticism is one thing. Repeating, almost verbatim, an opposition talking point constitutes free advertising for the opposition.
 

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Yesterday one of the shots of a Bush cameo appearance to the loving opened with the chant: "Four more years."

I would like to suggest that a more appropriate chant for all America should be: "No more mistakes."

jay
 

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"The White House is stonewalling a Freedom of Information Act request for records detailing Bush Administraton contacts with Swift Boat Veterans for Truth, the GOP-backed anti-Kerry organization that is challenging the Democratic Presidential nominee&#39;s actions in Vietnam."

Apparently, release of the information might discredit Karl Rove’s honesty [huh?] and provide a couple more links between the SBVT and the Bush campaign. For the rest of the article go to:
http://www.capitolhillblue.com/artman/publ...icle_5128.shtml
Note mindseye does not believe this site is squeaky clean and unbiased. I think that they seem to be a little ahead of most of the press and correct.

jay
 

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Originally posted by jay_too@Aug 27 2004, 10:10 PM
For the rest of the article go to:
http://www.capitolhillblue.com/artman/publ...icle_5128.shtml
Note mindseye does not believe this site is squeaky clean and unbiased. I think that they seem to be a little ahead of most of the press and correct.
Well, to be more precise, I think they have a low editorial threshhold. In a way, we agree -- they&#39;re &#39;ahead of most of the press&#39;, because they&#39;re willing to run rumors while other news outlets are seeking independent confirmation.


Still, they beat the pants off of this site for journalistic integrity...
 

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Some breaking news about the so-called Swift Boat Veterans for Truth:

Alfred French, Assistant District Attorney for Clackamas County Oregon, who appeared in a SBVFT ad claiming John Kerry was lying and exaggerating, recently admitted he wasn&#39;t present during the battle action that resulted in Kerry&#39;s decorations. Instead French now claims he was relying on the heresay of others when he swore in an affadavit attacking Kerry.

Affadavit

French also faces disciplinary action for lying about an extramarital affair with a Clackamas County district attorney&#39;s office staff member.

Investigation

Swift Boat Veterans for Truth?

SG
 

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Javier, honestly, I&#39;m frightened of the consequences of having Bush re-elected. And there&#39;s only one thing that makes me really consider that a possibility:

Lack of critical thinking skills.

Since when did US politics become a spectator sport for voters who can only digest the equivilent of a 60-second TV commercial&#39;s worth of content?

So many listen to rumor and inuendo, and they believe it without even checking the facts for themselves. They play into dirty politics and shell games because they&#39;re too stupid to figure out where the hell the ball is for themselves. This is what cost John McCain the nomination in 2000. Bush&#39;s buddies spread rumors that he fathered a black child. Yeah, he and his wife adopted a child from Bangledesh. But the damage had been done. Nice. There&#39;s an article in Newsweek (current) that talks about Bush&#39;s "sleeper cells" that, with a nod and a wink, will go out and do his political terrorism for him.

An earlier post mentions intelligent, creative, problem-solvers who are rational, educated and confident who are basically regurgitating the gunk that&#39;s spewed from the pundits. If these are the people who can&#39;t see the game then what about those American voters who aren&#39;t so intelligent, creative, rational, and educated?? Hmmm... He ran as the "compassionate conservative," but I guess that only applies to his white, wealthy friends and not a minority or a person who wants to marry someone of the same gender.

This is what&#39;s scary:

1. Bush get&#39;s re-elected and continues in his destructive, dictatorial, nepotistic ways.
2. Kerry is elected and is only able to fix the diplomatic stuff (relatively easy compared to the national mess we have).
3. Kerry is elected by a narrow margin, Bush challenges it through his buddies in the courts, and even if Kerry does win -- as Mindseye mentions -- it won&#39;t be by overwhelming mandate, so it implies to the rest of the world that US citizens really don&#39;t care that Bush is such a fuck.

Of course, throw in any one or more variables, like:

1. Another terrorist attack within the US, causing a rally behind Bush.
2. A last minute mud slinging against Kerry.
3. An escalation between Panama and Cuba (we hate terrorism, except when it&#39;s directed at 73 innocent Cubans who died in a the bombing of a Cuban passenger plane in 1976).
4. Escalation in the Israel-Iran arena.
5. A heart attack. A stroke. A car accident. A cocaine relapse. A meteor falling through the roof of the White House and splattering the Bushes while they dine.
6. Any other "national crisis" that allows Bush to &#39;indefinitely suspend&#39; voting.

Here are a couple of Bush outcomes over the next four years:

1. We invade Cuba, overthrow Castro, and turn the island into non-represented outpost as is Puerto Rico.
2. We invade Iran.
3. Bush and his buddies get wealthier, and everyone else gets poor.
4. We lose more jobs overseas, resulting in an additional net loss of employment.
5. We are targeted by more terrorists.
6. We continue to defile our water, air, and land -- returning us to the &#39;60s when the rivers burned because they were so polluted.
7. GNP continues to climb, based on policy manipulation rather than real economic growth, resulting in more poor people.
8. The poor will riot in some fashion.

Speculations of a frightened voter, at best -- but anything can happen and it usually does. I think I&#39;ll go expat.

AMENDMENT: Here&#39;s an article from The Nation. It details the psychology behind Dubya&#39;s doublespeak, and:

"Bush&#39;s political opponents are caught in a fantasy that they can win against him simply by proving the superiority of their ideas. However, people do not support Bush for the power of his ideas, but out of the despair and desperation in their hearts. Whenever people are in the grip of a desperate dependency, they won&#39;t respond to rational criticisms of the people they are dependent on. They will respond to plausible and forceful statements and alternatives that put the American electorate back in touch with their core optimism. Bush&#39;s opponents must combat his dark imagery with hope and restore American vigor and optimism in the coming years. They should heed the example of Reagan, who used optimism against Carter and the "national malaise"; Franklin Roosevelt, who used it against Hoover and the pessimism induced by the Depression ("the only thing we have to fear is fear itself"); and Clinton (the "Man from Hope"), who used positive language against the senior Bush&#39;s lack of vision. This is the linguistic prescription for those who wish to retire Bush in 2004."

This is what frightens me: psychological political warfare that may imprison us in an Orwellian nightmare for another four years.
 

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For a couple of weeks, I have tried to understand the furor over Kerry&#39;s anti-war activities after he came back from Vietnam. Both of my grandfathers had the opportunity to spend time on the ground there; both came back to this country dissolutioned by the corruption of the Vietnamese government and many U.S. officers and enlisted men. The latter group was making millions on the black market, drugs, prostitution, etc. When they returned in 1965 and 1966, my grandfathers said publically that this was not America&#39;s war.

Perhaps, I am biased by family stories; but I do not understand what the issue is. Do some believe veterans lose basic First Amendment Rights? Can anyone tell me anything good that came out of &#39;Nam? In the past decade I have read 3 or 4 books on Vietnam, I cannot recall any claims.

jay
 
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