Auto Workers are so out of touch of reality!

[atomicTIGER]

No offense to any auto workers that may read this but myself and everyone I know not in the auto industry have about had it with their bleeding heart pleas. I just saw a bit on TV about a family with 27 people all in the auto industry. Anyone who gets a job in the auto industry are the luckiest bastards around! Only the civil service jobs are more of getting the "Golden Goose" handed to you for free! I am not saying they are lazy BUT come on!! They are and have been GROSSLY over paid. The average worker makes $35 plus benifits fit for a KING! And most have no college or very little college--and they don't work that hard! They asked one person in this auto worker family his opion. He said "Most people think auto workers are lazy-- but I bet most people couldn't take one day, no one hour working as hard as we do" (end quote) If this fat ass bastard had to work one hour at McDonalds sweating you ass off, standing over a 400+deg -flipping burgers till your arm feels like its going to fall off.--that fat bastard would have a heart attack if he had to do that. And any how with what they earn-- if they work there for 20 years they should EASILY have there house paid and a million dollars in the bank which is plenty to retire on--OH NO these bastards live in multi-million dollars houses, have 3 cars worth 40,000 each, and waste money left and right...That is why they hang on to their jobs like a albatross. Because they know they are on the gravy train and hang on to it for 30,40 years or more. They make me sick. The only way to get a job in auto industry is to know someone high up there who works there. Thats a fact its been like that for the past 30 years. I know because I tried 30 years ago to get a job--and I was basically laughed at when I tried. And was told by employment experts don't even bother if you don't know someone in their higherarchy--its a little gravy train club--and your not getting in. And the dumb ass autoworker said "the public is treating our executives so unfairly and should be given the bailout money." I want to say to him "Hey dumb ass of course you want the bailout --the fucking money is going to support your rich ass lifestyle" Thats all CASE CLOSED

 

[marleyisalegend]

Give them some credit atomictiger, do you know how hard it is to find a parking spot for your private jet?

 

[Rikter8]

Theres a couple sides to the story.

The cases that your hearing about are folks that have been working on the lines for years, and have high seniority. That backed with the UAW strong arm driving their wages off the chart helped drive the big 3 into the ground. The rest were the retirees and job bank people sucking off the system.

That $38 per hour generally includes, wages + benefits. I know any new hires in our plant start out at $12-15 per hour without benefits. Some less than that depending on the job.

The UAW and the big CEO's have gotten greedy and we're seeing the truth come out in the full public eye.

So, now you've got one promising the world that is now collapsing, and on the other side of the coin, you've got thousands of auto workers jobs hinging on their mistakes, that have budgeted for the work they were doing.
It WAS out of hand. We had Janitors making $130K a year. But it was the UAW making it happen, and the big 3 being strongarmed into a corner.

Let's not forget the impact this has not only on GM salaried employees - but the HUGE ripple effect on all of the suppliers. If GM slows down, it means almost immediate closure or layoff of suppliers.

The problem is Waaaaayyyy bigger than you can ever imagine...and thats why the leaders to be are proceeding with caution.

 

[marleyisalegend]

the leaders to be are proceeding with caution.

If only they had done that with Wall Street's bailout.

 

[Rikter8]

and they don't work that hard! The only way to get a job in auto industry is to know someone high up there who works there. Thats a fact its been like that for the past 30 years.

Again use caution. In some instances you are correct. It is assembly work. Many have been known to sleep on the job, and read books. I myself have witnessed this. Again - its the strong arm of the UAW allowing them to do this.
It may not be hard work, but in many plants and factories, your ambient air temperature is around 95-120F All Day. In the winter, people dress in shorts or very limited clothing because they sweat from the heat. If it gets too hot in the plant, they have to take more breaks, or they shut down the line completely because it's just too hot.
That Burger flipping grill is NO match for furnace brazing ovens that are about 20 feet tall, 30 feet wide with flames to match.
Thinks im bullshitting? Take a tour in a local foundary in around august.

Mabee in your small manufacturing facility its a buddy system, but in many, it's not.
We had a literal LINE of applicants out the door. It was a U turn for about 80-90% of them because NONE of them could pass the drug test.

The other problem if you tried getting into GM is the Job Pool. They have priority over new hires.

 

[Rikter8]

If only they had done that with Wall Street's bailout.

Pelosi and the rest of the crew, not the CEO's

 

[2322]

Not the UAW allowing it to happen, the auto companies did. Lest we forget, the auto companies agreed to pay these wages, benefits, and pensions. They negotiated the contract, said they could live with it, and agreed to pay their workers the amounts agreed in the contracts. Just as in any other business, both sides negotiated to get the best deal they could and now the auto companies want out of the deal. And just as in any other business, the execs are pointing fingers at someone else so they don't get blamed.

The fact is Detroit has not stayed competitive since the 1970s when they began to see dramatic loss of market share to the Japanese. Thirty years is enough time in my book to catch up on your game and instead Detroit has cranked out junk and resorted to waving flags in commercials. For a brief while, the Taurus outsold the Accord and there was hope but Honda worked harder and better, leapfrogging the Taurus.

Some American products are competitive abroad, particularly for Ford. But if we hand them a bailout check you know where that money is going? Abroad. It will be plowed into foreign operations where the American companies have buyers and assembly plants where they can sell product; places that the Japanese either haven't gotten to or can't compete because of trade restrictions. Any bailout money we hand Detroit isn't going to be seen by the workers here in the US. We'll be subsidizing companies that won't be American companies with American workers. We'll be subsidizing plants in Asia, South America, and Europe.

It does need to be said that line workers here in the US earn good money but not the ridiculous amount ABC reported:

In an attempt to explain the plight of the Big Three U.S. automobile manufacturers, ABC's World News used a wildly misleading statistic regarding autoworkers' pay.

On the December 3 edition of the ABC newscast, reporter Chris Bury took aim at the supposed inflexibility of the United Auto Workers: "But the union did not offer to give back the big stuff, pay and benefits that remain a fundamental problem. Ford, Chrysler and GM pay union workers more than $73 an hour in wages and benefits. Japanese plants here shell out just over $44. For GM, that translates into $1,500 more per car more than Toyota has to pay."

This factoid, which is a favorite of the industry--and, increasingly, of the media as well (see Media Matters, 11/22/08)--has been exposed as misleading for some time. In the New Republic (11/21/08), Jonathan Cohn called it "wildly misleading," and cited an analyst for the Center for Automotive Research who determined that "average wages for workers at Chrysler, Ford and General Motors were just $28 per hour as of 2007." The much higher figure, according to Cohn, results from a mathematical sleight of hand. "The cost of all employer-provided benefits--namely, health insurance and pensions--and then dividing by the number of workers." In other words, costs related to retired workers, who well outnumber current employees, are used to create an inflated figure that is misleadingly labeled as current labor costs.

Writing in Portfolio (11/18/08), Felix Salmon called it a "ridiculous number," adding: "Now that GM's healthcare obligations are being moved to a UAW-run trust, even that fictitious number is going to fall sharply. But anybody who uses it as a rhetorical device suggesting that U.S. car companies are run inefficiently is being disingenuous." The United Auto Workers also has a page on their website debunking the industry figures (Wages and labor costs - UAW Bargaining 2007).

And as the Wall Street Journal reported (11/20/08), "During the past three years, the union agreed to eliminate tens of thousands of production jobs, reduce healthcare coverage for union retirees and slash wages for new hires--moves that essentially level the playing field between the Big Three auto makers and their foreign-owned rivals." The paper went on to explain that these concessions are significant: "Analysts believe the changes will bring the average cost of union labor to less than $50 an hour by 2010 or 2011, in line with Toyota Motor Corp.'s labor costs. The Harbour Report, a closely watched scorecard of auto-plant productivity, earlier this year found that in 2007 the average per-vehicle labor costs for the Big Three in 2007 was no more than $260 above Toyota's"--far from the $1,500 premium ABC claimed GM pays.

ABC did include a quote from UAW president Ron Gettelfinger, saying that he "bristled at blaming auto workers"--but ABC's newscast was as much behind the finger-pointing as the industry is. As economist Dean Baker noted (Beat the Press, 11/18/08), this misinformation has serious consequences: "It certainly can affect public support for a bailout if they are led to believe that autoworkers are paid much more than is actually the case." ABC should correct the record. -Fairness and Accuracy In Reporting

So easy to point fingers when you don't make a competitive product and haven't even bothered to try just to make your quarterly numbers look better.

 

[HazelGod]

The US automakers are out of touch with reality.

Here's a quick comparison of two similar enterprises...both international auto manufacturers with high market share:

In 2007, GM did roughly $207 billion in sales, yet posted a net loss around $2 billion, or -1%. In the same year, Toyota's sales approached $205 billion, on which they reported a profit around $14 billion, or nearly 7%.

In 2008, GM's sales fell to $182 billion, and the company posted a loss of $39 billion...nearly -21.5%! In contrast, Toyota's sales rose to $230 billion for a profit of $15 billion, or about 6.5%.

Year over year, GM's sales fell over 12%...a sign of the down economy, perhaps...but their profits fell (or, more accurately, their losses increased) by more than 20 percent! In the same shite economic scenario, Toyota's sales grew a little more than 12% with roughly the same profitability as the previous year.

It doesn't require an MBA to see that the managment of one company knows how to effectively run their business, and the other does not.

It's not the US auto workers...it's the fuckwits above them who are running their corporations into the ground.

This is economic Darwinism playing out...and using taxpayer funds to try propping up the lifespan of the Detriot Dodo makes about as much sense as trying to resurrect the actual bird.

 

[atomicTIGER]

Again use caution. In some instances you are correct. It is assembly work. Many have been known to sleep on the job, and read books. I myself have witnessed this. Again - its the strong arm of the UAW allowing them to do this.
It may not be hard work, but in many plants and factories, your ambient air temperature is around 95-120F All Day. In the winter, people dress in shorts or very limited clothing because they sweat from the heat. If it gets too hot in the plant, they have to take more breaks, or they shut down the line completely because it's just too hot.
That Burger flipping grill is NO match for furnace brazing ovens that are about 20 feet tall, 30 feet wide with flames to match.
Thinks im bullshitting? Take a tour in a local foundary in around august.

Mabee in your small manufacturing facility its a buddy system, but in many, it's not.
We had a literal LINE of applicants out the door. It was a U turn for about 80-90% of them because NONE of them could pass the drug test.

The other problem if you tried getting into GM is the Job Pool. They have priority over new hires.

Ok thank for your reply I know the UAW is 90% of the problem BUT its the employees who hang on for 30 and 40 years exaserbate the problem. They don't hang on because they work so hard--they hang on because they have it made in the shade and they know it.
My last comment about the heat--I know working around blast furnaces is very hot--but very very few of the total employees do this--and these are VERY highly paid employees--$50 an hour or MORE--BUT these guys earn it and deserve it..The majority don't work in bad conditons at all---AND the McDonalds grill job--well years ago I did that --you must not have--when you are over that grill the air temp is over 150 to as high as 200deg and you can't move you are stuck there during lunch hour--you ass won't move from that spot--I would loose 5 or more pounds in sweat on a shift. Modern stores are ventilated better but not all and not much better. And then you collect you $4.75 a hour pay check. (I was paid $1.35 to do that job with absolutly no benifits --OH their was one benfit if you were sick and couldn't come in --well you would get a vaction--a permanent one with no pay--fired!)

 

[deleted213967]

I want to say to him "Hey dumb ass of course you want the bailout --the fucking money is going to support your rich ass lifestyle" Thats all CASE CLOSED

I assume you are referring to the old-guard Detroit vortex, not the new South-based, leaner auto industry.

Indeed, one would be hard-pressed today, in the US, to find a union-dominated industry that is efficient and successful. Even Hollywood is ailing.

Southwest airlines?

 

[HazelGod]

Southwest airlines?

Bingo.

 

[2322]

Ya give people information and they don't fucking read it. Ignorance isn't bliss, it's goddamn dangerous. :rant:

 

[Rikter8]

Not the UAW allowing it to happen, the auto companies did. Lest we forget, the auto companies agreed to pay these wages, benefits, and pensions.
But if we hand them a bailout check you know where that money is going? Abroad. It will be plowed into foreign operations where the American companies have buyers and assembly plants where they can sell product; places that the Japanese either haven't gotten to or can't compete because of trade restrictions. Any bailout money we hand Detroit isn't going to be seen by the workers here in the US. We'll be subsidizing companies that won't be American companies with American workers. We'll be subsidizing plants in Asia, South America, and Europe.

Mmm you sure? The UAW supported strikes on GM and others if they didnt get what they wanted. Did they have a choice?

It's not a bailout check. It's a Loan. Different than AIG.

I agree, it won't be invested here in the US. Nor will it be invested responsably.

I'm not saying they should get it. I'm just saying to the OP that the sweeping generalization that not all employed in the auto industry are like that.
(Besides...sweeping generalizations are my specialty)

I agree with you Jason, but The crap production started around 1994, and really got bad from there on out.

In my opinion, they need to fall hard. Pick up the pieces, throw away the UAW, and start over.
I work in a union shop, but am not union. I work hard and am rewarded for my work and effort, not a quarterly contract agreement to give me a raise irregardless of my performance.

You work hard, you stay. You slack, your gone. It should be that easy.

 

[marleyisalegend]

Pelosi and the rest of the crew, not the CEO's

That's who I meant. The interrogation of Wall Street seemed rushed, much less intricate and organized, sorta "We need money!" "Okay, here's a bunch of it."

as an afterthought....

Pelosi: "Hmmm, maybe we shoulda drawn out a gameplan with regulations first. Meh, they be aight."

 

[Rikter8]

That's who I meant. The interrogation of Wall Street seemed rushed, much less intricate and organized, sorta "We need money!" "Okay, here's a bunch of it."

as an afterthought....

Pelosi: "Hmmm, maybe we shoulda drawn out a gameplan with regulations first. Meh, they be aight."

Well I think that reality bitch slapped them when AIG took the money and ran.

*DUH* Imagine that.

Then everybody was pissed off....and then the brains had to come out to say "Well...we have conditions"

 

[HazelGod]

I work hard and am rewarded for my work and effort, not a quarterly contract agreement to give me a raise irregardless of my performance.

Irrespective or regardless...please choose one or the other.

 

[Rikter8]

Regardless. Happy?

 

[HazelGod]

Regardless. Happy?

:dance:

As a pig in shit, yo. :yup:

 

[marleyisalegend]

Then everybody was pissed off....and then the brains had to come out to say "Well...we have conditions"

John Stewart make an acute observation that Wall Street, which sells NOTHING (well, essentially money) got hundreds of billions with few conditions, the auto industry which actually sells a product you can see, is getting a tiny fraction and they're being scrutinized to hell.

 

[nudeyorker]

In the early 70's my step father was working for Pan Am Airlines and his feeling in a nutshell was the airline was bleeding money to the unions because at the time someone was being paid $45.00 an hour to clean the the the windows on the aircraft, in addition to the other union demands that have driven several other airlines out of business. Subsequently the the past is being recaptured. This country deregulated airlines. Now why should we regulate banks and the automobile industry? Let business go out of business or continue without out a hand out. Did the banks and automobile industry put anything in the tax payers pockets when they were making money?