Bailout DENIED

[B_New End]

No, I've read none of your posts regarding your economic theories. They are after all only theories, they may be amusing or interesting but in the end they are inconsequential, as you, probably like most of us who are not in positions of influence have absolutely no say in the matter, whatsoever.

Then you shouldn't be making statements like this

we still haven't heard a proposed a solution to the problem from any of you.

Probably also goes to show, you really have not even been trying to read counter proposals. In fact, it shows you are actually just ignorant, and choose to trust your monetary overlords, and mock those who do not as....

too ignorant and uninformed to make educated decisions on complex issues such as this.

Looks like you are the one, who is ignorant, and uninformed.

What if?

I get it, bail out fans get to be doomsdayers, and talk about all the what ifs, but there is no open mindedness when it comes to the actual possible unintended consequences of the actual bailout.

No, you don't want to hear it can fail, and make things worse... you just want to hear that all we have to do is hand over $700 B to those that got us in this mess, and everything will go back to normal. That's what you want. You just want to be told everything is gonna be ok. Nanny state will take care of you.

I'm sorry, it just doesn't work that way. Its not going to be ok, bail out or not, America is in for a world of financial hurt.

 

[Drifterwood]

Jason, the letters would be more compelling if they offered an outline of a solution to the crisis or gave reasons why they felt that taking no action whatsoever was the correct response. They do not give a clear picture of consequences for doing nothing if that is their stand on the matter.

Earl, is the problem that people don't know the scale of the losses that have to be borne? I am pretty much in complete agreement with both letters and I read their implication as being clearly that those who took the bad risk should take the bad debt. But this is the inherent problem with unregulated derivatives which is why Mr. Paulson is unable to say how much is required for his pro bank plan.

I want a pro people plan (the UK Gov is promoting itself as doing this, but we will have to wait nd see), but we don't know if ultimately we will be cutting off our noses to spite our faces, because the financiers have tied us in such knots. It's like defusing a series of bombs, without knowing how many there are and where they are.

Thank you for posting those letters Jason. FWIW I have never felt so much empathy with the US people, those who try to make a decent living in a decent way. I am feeling positively Jeffersonian.

 

[Phil Ayesho]

Nobody "owes" anyone anything when they become rich. The rich give because it is good for business. Look, just about everyone, liberals and conservatives alike hate greedy people. The big difference between them though is that liberals believe that the big government should determine how much a rich person should give AND what to do with it, while consevatives believe that a rich person should be smart enough to give back and contribute with private donations, or else they risk losing business to angry customers.

you're a selfish idiot.


There would BE no riches without commerce- no commerce without consumers, no consumers without income.

We are ALL tied together. The RICH are those that get the MOST out of the structure of our society.

But without our society they would not have shit... would never have been born.

The Rich owe society EVERYTHING they have.

Ask Warren Buffet.


In China- it is called the mandate of heaven- the only JUST ruler is the one who rules for the benefit of ALL ; not merely himself.


And your analysis is bull- Republicans believe the rich can do anything they fucking want with their money. They don't HAVE to give a red cent.

And hey- Government determines how much I have to give.
And we have an amendment about equal treatment under the law.

I think the rich can Afford to have government determine their contribution, too.

 

[Drifterwood]

I think the rich can Afford to have government determine their contribution, too.

and accountans to get round it. And , I think Phil, one third of all profit is concealed off shore.

Do you feel like the mug punter?

 

[Nrets]

Yup. It's been denied...can't blame republicans because there were 94 dems who voted against it. O, ya, did anyone else hear that automakers were given $50 billion yesterday? WTF is going on in Washington? Fellow citizens, democrats especially, need I remind you why we have a right to bear arms? It's time for a revolution. :unitedstates::biggrin1:

It was actually a majority of Republicans who voted against it.

I double taked...but that is how it went down.

McCain is flat out lying when he blames the dems for the bailout failing..

but don't worry. They will come to an agreement soon...cause that 400 point rise today is probably not going to last.

I think the fact that the majority of Dems supported Bush does show that the government is freaking out a bit...so I'm kinda with you on some things.

 

[faceking]

What the f*ck are they doing at time like this... squeezing in earmarks??????

This should of been an emergency-only bill, we don't have time nor the risk for this shit.

New Tax earmarks in Bailout bill
- Film and Television Productions (Sec. 502)
-Wooden Arrows designed for use by children (S ec. 503)
- 6 page package of earmarks for litigants in the 1989 Exxon Valdez incident, Alaska (Sec. 504)

Tax earmark "extenders" in the bailout bill.
- Virgin Island and Puerto Rican Rum (Section 308)
- American Samoa (Sec. 309)
- Mine Rescue Teams (Sec. 310)
- Mine Safety Equipment (Sec. 311)
- Domestic Production Activities in Puerto Rico (Sec. 312)
- Indian Tribes (Sec. 314, 315)
- Railroads (Sec. 316)
- Auto Racing Tracks (317)
- District of Columbia (Sec. 322)
- Wool Research (Sec. 325)

 

[VeeP]

What the f*ck are they doing at time like this... squeezing in earmarks??????

"Buying" votes with even more taxpayer dollars, of course, just as they always do. It's shameful and if ever there were lipstick being put on a pig, this is it.

 

[Phil Ayesho]

What the f*ck are they doing at time like this... squeezing in earmarks??????

This should of been an emergency-only bill, we don't have time nor the risk for this shit.

Jeez, Face- don't you read the news?

This is the only way they can get Republicans to vote for their own fucking Bill.

'Cause, y'know, Nancy SAID something that hurt the republicans poor little feelings...
... And their poor widdle feely bads are far more important than the Nation...


And the ONLY thing that can make republicans feel better is to screw the taxpayer EVEN more and blame it on Nancy- who, after all, is entirely to blame because WORDS are SO hurtful....

 

[tripod]

Those earmarks are being used to win democratic votes too.

 

[Flashy]

Views Expressed by Paulson as Secretary of the Treasury
In Spring 2007, Secretary Paulson told an audience at the Shanghai Futures Exchange that "An open, competitive, and liberalized financial market can effectively allocate scarce resources in a manner that promotes stability and prosperity far better than governmental intervention." [23]

In August 2007, Secretary Paulson explained that U.S. subprime mortgage fallout remained largely contained due to the strongest global economy in decades. [24]

On July 20, 2008, after the failure of Indymac Bank, Paulson reassured the public by saying, “it's a safe banking system, a sound banking system. Our regulators are on top of it. This is a very manageable situation.” [25]

On August 10, 2008, Secretary Paulson told NBC’s Meet the Press that he had no plans to inject any capital into Fannie Mae or Freddie Mac.[26] On September 7, 2008, both Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac went into conservatorship.[27]

So Flash, this genius ex Chair and CEO of Goldman Sachs, up to his neck in the Toxic Debt that your friends in the now closed investment bank corruptly passed off to the rest of the world thus causing the credit crunch, is now protecting his NY bank friends at the expense of everyone else.

How big a backlash are you expecting from us idiots? the foreign scum like me and those at home with rifles.

1. should that "genius" have instead said "EVERYBODY PANIC!!!!!!!!!!!"

that makes sense.

2. Goldman Sachs is not closed. shithead.

3. There was no "corruption" involving in creating mortgage backed securities. They were perfectly legal debt instruments that the sweet innocent rest of the world was only to happy to buy to line their pockets with double digit profits, hedge their portfolios etc.

If there was, you would think that the brilliant "rest of the world", the gigantic banks and financial systems of europe and asia, with their thousands of employees, analysts, experts, plus private equity firms, private banks and hedge funds, would have said no to participating in what was a multiple, multi trillion dollar trading market that they were only to happy to soak themselves in to make the profits they have made in the past two decades.

4. i don't care about the backlash at all from you "idiots". Dumb the over 200 billion of our national debt that the Untied Kingdom holds...see what happens to you.

5. You are not foreign scum...you are just scum. Being foreign doesn't make one scum...being a persistent, ignorant, obnoxious, anti-american, makes you "foreign" scum.

6. Convenient, how once again, in your typical way, you ignored your complete erroneous assertion of leverage being a US driven phenomenon, when put into the cold black and white reality of fact, in post #87, not to mention your ignorance of the support our government gave to AIG, which, in light of your insults, makes you look even dumber, since the collapse of AIG would have been a disaster for European banks.

7. you are an anti-american scumbag, nothing more. You single-handedly represent the reason why many americans do not care at all for the rest of the world, because of your simple hypocrisy. You demand we consider you first, but then say that you will consider yourselves first, since you do not consider us "the center of the world"...so why should the same consideration be given to you. You are unwilling to do the same thing you demand from us...

you whine "why don't you consider all the rest of us first"
you then say that you "refuse to consider us the center of your world"

that is certainly your prerogative and your right...but why would you think you should be afforded the thoughts and prime consideration you are not willing to give out yourself...

you think of yourselves first, yet demand that we don;t think of ourselves first....

that makes sense...it is called "hypocrisy".

 

[Flashy]

What are you talking about? I VOTED for liberal policies. More importantly, I voted for people who COULD enact change.

Like Reagan, who began deregulation that you hate, and began the Far Right Conservative revolution, that you hate.

You vote for people who do nothing, and exercise ZERO power.

On the contrary, i vote for people who are constantly fighting to take this country back from the people who you vote for, who have been destroying this country, piece by piece, with backwards thinking and corruption.

Mighty big words for such a small man.
I note you are venting your political spleen- as schizophrenic as it is, on this same site.

that is exactly the point...you fancy yourself the lord of all that is good, right and politically important...according to you, i am a small, ineffectual, schizo independent, and yet here you are, venting at me, the insignificant pe-on on the penis site, when you clearly, you have so much more to offer and are so much more correct...talk about playing down to your opponent.

So- with all due respect, bite me and make up your mind to make a difference by voting for the team that has a snowball's chance of winning and enacting your agenda.

on the contrary, since, of course, you listen to nobody but yourself, and ignore the facts that others post, i now tell for you the 3RD TIME, that the democratic party will not enact even 1/10th my agenda, that i havelaid out and you have, predictably ignored, so you can begin screaming about your own agenda again.

this was my agenda, from post 46 of the old vs. new usa thread, which, of course you ignored cause it did not jibe with your venom-spewing

http://www.lpsg.org/1731797-post46.html


-Marijuana legalization is not a democratic laundry list position
-Universal Healthcare paid for with *MY* philosophy, in conjunction with taxing and legalizing marijuana, taxing alcohol, is not, in fact, a democratic position
-Gay marriage is a Libertarian Position, and A Green position...i know it is hard for you to accept, but the democratic partty is not the only one who believes in gay marriage...tough one...think it through... ugh, phil don;t like rock, rock hit phil, phil hurt foot, phil think rock mean...caveman phil don't like...
- the environemnt is not a "democratic position". Greens and Libertarians have environmental positions as well.
- Hemp legalization is not a democratic position
- Estate Tax reform is not a democratic position
- Income tax reform is not a democratic position
- Serious campaign and lobbyist reform is not a democratic position
- Allowing better access to ballots for third party candidates is not a democratic position

so spare me your whole "make a difference" bullshit.

I ignore your dissembling bullshit because it is dissembling bullshit.

YOU ARE A FLAT OUT LIAR.

Dissmble:

1. To disguise or conceal behind a false appearance.

my "agenda" is stated above. there is no need for me to dissemble anything. there is no disguise, no concealment, and no false appearance. You, are simply a bald-faced liar.


It is always interesting to hear someone who voted for Reagan and Bush 1 who is now voting for Obama discuss false appearances.

Take a big step back and lookee see who has made all political appointments this past 8 years.
WHo has had total power to enact ANY legislation they please...
And done nothing.

just because the republicans are incompetent does not mean i am going to elect the other band of incompetents.

Then try hard to conjure up some idea of what will happen if "so called" independents, such as you, throw away their vote on some jerkwater nobody.

there is nothing "so called" about my independents. This shows just exactly how despicable, pathetic, superficial, and dare i even say, just as fascist as Bush and those who you decry.

The people who believe who could effect true change in this country, are not "jerkwater Nobodies" as you so eloquently refer to people who want to truly reform this nation.

you are a scumbag of the highest order.

A vote for the right thing is never thrown away...yours is the vote for corruption and the status quo. I will gladly "throw away" my vote on the right thing, then add it to the voice of the wrong and the corrupt.

Most of the time I would say vote for the folks you like most, just to send a message...

how gracious of you, oh emperor phil the slimeball.

but THIS time--- its a little more important to vote EFFECTIVELY.- This time there is an opportunity for Liberal control without conservative obstructionism.

That is funny...i seem to remember the last time there was liberal control with conservative obstructionism...1976-1980.

good times.

You would be an utter fool not to support it.

yeah, this from the guy who would not support Carter because he believed that he "Didn't have the teeth for the times"...

yet Obama does

Even if you hate democrats.... we had 8 years for the country to see republicans as failures...

and we had 4 years in the late 70s to see the democrats as failures. frankly, neither of these two parties should have total control...that way they can do the least amount of damage.

Maybe 4 years of Democrats fucking up just as bad is exactly what you NEED to get Americans to honestly entertain a third party.

or maybe americans like you should grow a brain and realize that the two parties have been fucking things up badly enough for decades that they should honetsly entertain a third party.

Either way, the smart move is obvious.

you said it perfectly. the smart move is to vote for the 3rd party, instead of giving another 4 years of the fuckups of one party rule another chance.


The question is, Are you smart?

smarter enough to not buy into your bullshit, and keep my vote safely out of the hands of the corrupt political parties you put your absurd faith in.

that is smart enough.

 

[Flashy]

I probably do and have done far more than you.

Oh yea of such little real knowledge.

Oh yeah?so let's hear it phil...tell us how wonderful you are.

I could not "sell" my business. IT is predicated upon my talent as a designer.
I EMPLOY people- I offer them a livelihood doing art.
I create a humane working environment-

LOL...well i would hope that it is not predicated on your talent as a respectable, honest, forthright, fair and honest debater.

You create a humane working environment, huh? fascinating...you offer la livelihood doing art, huh?

you are not exactly a starving artist then are you phil? I guess true art is not as important to you as making money teaching art, is it?

so technically, you do not really do anything for the economy on the notion of paying a ton of taxes, or employing dozens of people whose lives depend on you, like i and my family do, right?

you teach someone to go be an artist...wow.
my father employs dozens of people for four decades. They have good jobs, support their families, have health care, a pension, an honest, relaxed environment where they are treated with respect.
I worked there for years, then i went into the financial markets, where i advised people how to invest money. where the money i earned and earned for them and paid tax on went into the public coffers.

I fail to see how your contribution to society is somehow greater than mine.

I used to paint and write in my spare time and still do. Art and humanities are hobbies for me...i don't need to teach people it to survive. I can pursue it for my own enjoyment, and ultimately, through the choices i have made career wise, am able to donate far more than you are to charities and to the public coffers, so spare me the whole Phil as humanist saint routine.

it is boring.

I have taught 50 or more artists, over the years, how to make a living doing art.

wow....truly groundbreaking Phil...your contribution to society is so much better than the rest of us.

strange that you should accept payment for such a noble pursuit.

They are mostly out on their own now- making their own living, hiring their own apprentices... furthering the humanities.

They are doing their jobs, not "furthering the humanities"

Oh, and whenever I am confronted with stupid ideas and stupider arguments... I try and expose them... I think that is important as well.

I couldn't agree more...which explains why you are so introspective....it must be good practice for when you need to take the gloves off against the far less stupid.

But I see you simply continue in the same vein... bitching about everything and with not one real constructive idea to offer in solution.

I have plenty of constructive ideas....sadly for you, my ideas do not involve the republican or democratic parties, apparently...as if that was the way to support "constructive ideas".

My "constructive ideas", would include the elimination of art and music programs from public schools, and replace them with practical ideas, such as business, Law and finance....if students want art, surely they could go to a humanist like yourself after school to learn....besides, that way when they become great artists and musicians, they might absolutely know something about business, law and finance so they wouldn't get ripped off all the time.

I would legalize marijuana as i have stated before and along with heavy taxes on it and increased alcohol taxes i would truly crate a *VIABLE* universal health care with a healthy annual revenue base that would not take away from other entitlemnt programs or need punitive income taxes on others to accomplish.

I have plenty of other constructive ideas...you just don't care to listen to them.

Whining about the "powers that be" and ineffectual at changing anything.

my "ineffectuality" is because of corrupt, status quo, enablers like yourselves.

Endorsing other ineffectual whiners.
Folks like you are the most worthless in a civil society.

guess you are right...maybe you'd like to pay my taxes then...since i am worthless after all.

You really gotta make up your mind.
Your posts are meandering and self contradictory.

How would you know, since you simply ignore them? There is nothing contradictory at all. I have laid out my platform and beliefs, and then you simply lie about them and call me a dissembler...

how wise.

why would you accept any one else's opinion or listen to anyone else when all you hear is your own?

It is your way only, and you demostrate that repeatedly, with your behavior towards anyone who disagrees with you in even the slightest or greatest regard.

you are an obnoxious, overbearing, self-righteous, hypocrital liar.

You gotta pony up some evidence that the numb-nuts YOU endorse would be any better... or shut up about the fact that any jackass can find fuckups by any party.

"pony up" some evidence huh? Well, considering how bad things are, between the republicans and democrats who have made such a mess of things in the 4-5 decades, with scandals, corruption, failed policies, debts, deficits, wars, crime, failure, and a whole host of other issues, the proof is in the pudding...

things couldn't be much worse...you seem to think bringing in the democrats and giving them total power will somehow make things all better...i would say *YOU* need to pony up the evidence of that considering the abject failure of both parties you vote for in you wild political mood swings from Reagan to Bush to Clinton...both parties have had their shot, and failed miserably...so it is simple for yo to complain about ponying up evidence when you and your minions keep parties and candidates who want real change off the ballot and out of the debate.

SO what?

You gotta choice to make

And your stated intention is to LITERALLY not support a party that could win and that would push your agenda.

Another Lie from you again....that is now the 5th time that you had stated that the democratic party that would "push your agensa".

so for the 5th time, here is part of my agenda...please show me where the democrats are going to push it, except for off their platform.

this was my agenda, from post 46 of the old vs. new usa thread, which, of course you ignored cause it did not jibe with your venom-spewing

http://www.lpsg.org/1731797-post46.html


-Marijuana legalization is not a democratic laundry list position
-Universal Healthcare paid for with *MY* philosophy, in conjunction with taxing and legalizing marijuana, taxing alcohol, is not, in fact, a democratic position
-Gay marriage is a Libertarian Position, and A Green position...i know it is hard for you to accept, but the democratic partty is not the only one who believes in gay marriage...tough one...think it through... ugh, phil don;t like rock, rock hit phil, phil hurt foot, phil think rock mean...caveman phil don't like...
- the environemnt is not a "democratic position". Greens and Libertarians have environmental positions as well.
- Hemp legalization is not a democratic position
- Estate Tax reform is not a democratic position
- Income tax reform is not a democratic position
- Serious campaign and lobbyist reform is not a democratic position
- Allowing better access to ballots for third party candidates is not a democratic position

so spare me your whole democrats pushing my agenda bullshit

no sale...stick to art, cause you are an absolute lying shyster of a salesman, with no clue what he is selling and even less of a clue of what he claims others want.

YOU ARE A PATHOLOGICAL ***LIAR***




When you grow a lobe, maybe I will be more interested in your point of view.

You are not interested in anyon'e point of view but your own...which explains why you have now lied about my "agenda" 5 times, and spend all your time attacking anyone who disagrees with to the minutest degree...

you are just a nasty old man who stomps his feet and yells at people and has as much passion for concilliation, cooperation and the alleged "spirit of community" as Stalin did.

You are a nasty fascist is all...at least you can use your magical artistic powers to create lots of great propoganda posters to promote the corruption and failures of the two parties you vote for so religiously while crapping so copiously on the beliefs of others, when you allegedly place such a high price on "community".