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Discussion in 'Et Cetera, Et Cetera' started by Skull Mason, Aug 7, 2007.
Hank under real racial duress, in less time, and with character, accomplished the greatest feat in baseball.
As far as the aterisk goes? Well, I put one next to Babe Ruth, Ty Cobb, Joe DiMaggio, Mickey, all the guys whose careers were not necessarily played against the greatest players of their days.
What damage could have a Satchel Page put on their personal records of accomplishment.
Most have asterisks by their names, but not Hank (and a select few others).
Then again who is to say that 'roidal Barry hasn't been batting against 'roidal pitchers.
do you think his testicles shrunk?
He will be forever remembered (until someone else comes along) and known as the Home Run King, no one or no "*" can take that away from him. He also did it in way less at bats and games than Hank Aaron. Hank Aaron also hit more than 1/4 of his home runs in the ballpark known as the easiest home run stadium in MLB history. That probably got him more home runs then "roids" got Bonds.
Barry hit a monster tonight to the deepest part of the park. He's had the best swing in baseball for a while. Steroids don't get you that. For the record he defintely took steroids or GH. Whether he knew it or not.
still echoing * couldn't agree with you more, very very sad. What a "role model".
755 will still stand as Hank's record to strive for and surpass as far as I'm concerned. Time for Bonds to retire.
those dudes in your avatar have done steroids too. All the haters should step off, he owns the record and no Hank Aaron's will never be the one people strive for, thats history now. Barry is #1 like it or not.
Disagree entirely. People who care about the game will always dismiss Bonds because of the cheating. It's still Aaron.
Actually I just looked in the record book, its says Barry Bonds. So every record that has been or is being broken should be ignored because countless people in baseball, and other sports have taken some type of performance enhancing drugs. Pretty much every track star and Olympian and cyclist. Not to mention the pitchers he is hitting these homeruns off, you don't think they do steroids? The one he tied the record off of was suspended for using steroids. If Aaron was hitting against these genetically enhanced pitchers and in a REAL ballpark he wouldn't come close to what Barry has accomplished in way less games and at bats.
Those people that care about the game, which became an EMBARASSMENT before the steroid age came about by way, can all go stand in picket lines outside the Hall of Fame if they want but no one cares, Bonds is King.
Steroids saved baseball like it or not. Thats why MLBs testing policy was and is a complete joke. You think Selig and others had no idea all these guys have been doing steroids? Baseball was dead after the strike, Big Mac Sammy So So and King Barry along with their pile of steroids saved the game.
Going to disagree, but put Barry up there with the best... gotta a guy I'm thinkin' of that.....
lifetime 2.77 ERA
two time twenty game winner
career WHIP of 1.159
had a best season of 38 games started with 35 of them complete games
was the first pitcher to be credited for a no-hitter game (a shared reward)
thinking you might know by now
a win/loss ratio of 67%
and if that's not enough, after pitching he went on to
hit 714 HRs
.342 avg (higher than a tony gwynn or rod carew)
yada yada yada
Babe Ruth. Period. He could pitch (very decent for his era) and he's top 5 slugger of all time.
It's non story/issue.
All that is a heap of rationalization. Doesn't matter. It's cheating, and it doesn't matter how many people do it, so long as there exists one ballplayer who doesn't do it. Like I said, people who care about the game know Bonds doesn't count. There will always be an asterisk that means "record set by cheating."
I've got points for and against Barry, but first the for...
-never been convicted. the feds are chasing him, and can't get him
-look at Barry during the strike shortened season with how many home runs he was on pace for.
-many great aging players have increased their home run totals as they got older... look at a non-home run hitting Tony Gwynn... he DAMN well bulked up later on.. and AMAZINGLY how does a PUUUUUUUUUURE hitter go from 5.5 HRs a year for 12 years into someone hitting 14 or 15 a year during the twinight of his career?
- the answer to the above is the strikezone... which leads me to........
The Babe got his record without blacks in MLB
But Hank got his record during the era of the large strikezone. Pitchers weren't forced to throw it near the sweet spot.
I invite you to view the following: Year-by-Year League Leaders & Records for Home Runs - Baseball-Reference.com
SERIOUSLY if you read one part of my post, take this....
Mays hit 50+ in 1965....
The next guy (my era) was George Foster to hit 52 in 77.
YOU MEAN TO TELL ME THAT ALL THINGS BEING EQUAL... that only two guys could post 50+ for almost THIRTY FUCKING YEARS!!!!!!!!
Cecil Fielder touches 50, then THE STRIKE HAPPENS...
that is the biggest turning point in our modern era of baseball.. for all you IT WOULD BE BETTER IF GRIFFEY JR had the record (and I like Griffey Jr,.. though he had been a china doll for awhile).
The strike happens in 1994... baseball is in a CRISIS.... what do to turn the days of 3-2 Ed Halicki vs Dave MacKay duldrums into a typical American Jr scoring fest...
...what...can....we...do...to...make it...more fun.... produce...more runs..... and fun...
Griffey goes on a tear to avg 50+ for 5 straight years... everybody talks about how he'll catch Hank inside of 2001. Nonames like Troy Glaus, Dante Bichette (was it the roid or altitude.. i forget) ... gallaraga... and so on.
So maybe performance enhancing drugs help (shoudl we ban oxygen on the NFL sidelines... if you can't produce your own oxygen, then why should you artificially supplment yourself, seriously), but clearly the last 15 years have been benefactors of something..... baseball purists call it a re-calibration of the strike zone. The purist always love to say "the best games are 2-1 pitching duels of zones, bunting, pinch hitting, speed, where fielding REALLY matters, coaching decisions... yet the fans and moreover the $$$ want the fireworks. Blame yourselves, or the ppl you sit next to.... that don't fork over for the boring team, but drop extra for razzmatazz.
Don't funking hate the playa, hate the game. Where was everybody during the lovefest of McGwire/Sosa??????. about 5% of you fans were calling these guys out for roids, much less the mockery of the strikezone that was made by the MLB.
Selig is an owner with the biggest money interest of all MLB commissioners of yore, and that is worst travesty.. he doesn't do what's best for the game, he does what's best for the $$$. There is your bigger crime... they knew yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeears ago.
Regardless if Barry did or didn't... don't be mad at him, be mad at the system and the ultra-liberal baseball players union (as do most unions) that prevented any clean "thought" from prevailing the minds of the fans.
that had to be the greatest post I've ever done here for the record...
I could get on board if we just drew a clear line between the pre- and post-drug era and stopped making comparisons. I can dig the arguments for it being a changed game, but if that's where we find our support for someone such as Bonds, we should simply start over with all new records and have two sets of books. For anyone who loves the game, it's a sad day when Aaron's record is surmounted by a cheater.
And for the record, McGwire & Sosa are cheaters too. No love for them here.
But what about pre-Black vs post-Black.... small strikezone vs large strikezone... chemicals vs no-chemicals...
and where is the outcry against the MBL players union THAT PREVENTED ANY ACROSS THE BOARD testing years ago.... 99% of the Bonds is the Home Roid King posters and pundits, don't even know the CURRENT testing policy and limitations thereof. It's hypocrisy at it's finest.
Whoops I'm sorry, it's a black vs white thing... my bad. Evil white man up to no good.
Those are the worst from what I've seen.. a la Mike Vick... if anything it's because of his star power, but me thinks it's more of the bust the pot grower not the dealer....