Bathhouses are reigniting the AIDS crisis. It's time to shut them dow

DC_DEEP

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I love it when people fight over who's the biggest victim and transfer the blame for all of their problems to their purported oppressors rather than acknowledge their own culpability.

It has become pop art.
I love it when you do your drive-by shittings and make snide remarks.
 

nudeyorker

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Bathhouses have nothing to do with it....unsafe sex has everything to do with it. And what I've read it's the twenty somethings gay and straight that have most to do with it!
 

B_cigarbabe

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978,I continue to read what you admitted was "bullshit" because I'm appalled
that in this day and age of instant info,you continue to spout the rhetoric of the fundy right.Which you envelope in a "trying to help gays" mantra. I noticed you have yet to respond to DC, well?
Everything DC, has said to you makes perfect sense,yet I still haven't seen any mention in your articles, about trying to help heteros get over their lousy decision making, only gay men. You could really be useful if you applied all this hatred and energy to,say straight's,for a change or how about making homes for the homeless!
Yes!
C.B.:saevilw:
sorry DC I had to try!
 

allmale

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The reason STD's are on then increase is because twenty-somethings and younger are not practicing safe sex as they didn't live through the horrors of the 80's. Yes, it's sad.

Bathhouses do provide a place for gay sex to occur that is often safer than going home with someone who is a "nut case," or worse bringing someone home who trips out and threatens to kill or beat a person up. When I was single, I would have rather met someone in public and go that route than bring someone home whom I didn't know well. When the bathhouses were closed in the 80's, tearooms, parks and adult bookstores became very busy places because in most towns and cities there was no where else to go.

On a personal note, yes I agree that bathhouses are for the most part not the cleanest places I've been to, but they are safer than the alternative of taking it out in public. And yes, there have been bathhouses that I've walk out of and never went back because of that reason.
 

B_Italian1

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Italian, I don't think you're an idiot, I just think you're IGNORANT and lack knowledge about this and many subjects. Just to educate you, and you could do a little of this yourself by surfing the Internet, here's a worldwide listing of places where HETEROSEXUAL people have anonymous sex, i.e a Bathhouse:

Swingers Club List - The World's Largest Swingers Clubs Directory

That has nothing to do with the topic of bathhouses, and those are not actual establishments. Swinging was going on before the internet via magazines.

Straight people do not need to regulate our behavior to help us. I've told you repeatedly that the main reason for those behaviors is societal. Pressure from society forces far too many gay men to be closeted; living a closeted life leads to more risky behaviors.

What you don't seem to understand is that there are more straight people in this world than gay people. In order for gays to get more rights and more respect, it's up to them to step up to the plate and show the world that they're more than just sex acts. Being closeted is no reason to be promiscuous.

And if you don't think are are a lot more hate crimes directed at homosexuals than toward ethnic minorities, you are just deluded or living on another planet. You really just do not have a clue. Yes, people do make shitty remarks to Latinos and Blacks, and give them bad service in retail establishments, but they do the same thing to gays. The big difference is that racial hate crimes actually make the national news; orientation hate crimes get a few eyebrows raised locally.

I disagree with all of that.

So yeah, there are a few "out & proud" gays, but there are many many closeted gays, too. The closeted ones are at higher risk for high-risk behaviors. Again, I will repeat for you, since you don't really seem to get the point: when being gay is less stigmatized, there will be less anonymous sex. There will still be some, yes, but much less.

I've read quite a few posts from out and proud older guys who are engaging in high risk behavior. I even mentioned in a post that since they are older they owe it to the younger generation to be a better example, but as usual, I was the bad guy.
 

Bbucko

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What you don't seem to understand is that there are more straight people in this world than gay people. In order for gays to get more rights and more respect, it's up to them to step up to the plate and show the world that they're more than just sex acts. Being closeted is no reason to be promiscuous.

I've never believed this line. My experience is that homophobes are as hateful and discriminatory toward a couple engaged in a long-term, monogamous relationship as they are toward a slutty pig. How would they even know, by casual observation, which is which?

You are saying that if we just conform to all of society's arcane dictates regarding sexual behavior that respect and love will come pouring forth? Do you really believe that?

Is it really my responsibility as a gay man living with stigma and homophobia to make haters respect me?

Are you for fucking real, AndyA?


I've read quite a few posts from out and proud older guys who are engaging in high risk behavior. I even mentioned in a post that since they are older they owe it to the younger generation to be a better example, but as usual, I was the bad guy.[/quote]

If you're referring to me, I suggest you read where I've repeatedly said that I am not advocating that anyone attempt to emulate me. I live my own life by my own rules, certainly not yours.

If you believe that you're such the superior role model for today's gay youth, how active are you in your community's Gay/Straight Alliance? 978 is an area code for Northern Massachusetts, isn't it?
 

jason_els

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The bath house I went to, the River Street Club, was very clean. I was actually impressed with how clean it was. The was staff constantly going about cleaning. It's actually a nice place.

Originally Posted by [B said:
Italian978[/B]
]What you don't seem to understand is that there are more straight people in this world than gay people. In order for gays to get more rights and more respect, it's up to them to step up to the plate and show the world that they're more than just sex acts. Being closeted is no reason to be promiscuous.

Oh I get it. It's up to gays to make themselves into the people you think they ought to be. We should strive to emulate conservative Wonderbread American families because that's what the majority is. We should be ashamed of ourselves otherwise. We should fear that shame because shame is what makes for conformist society. I have to agree with DC_Deep. You're woefully ignorant of not just gay society but your very own. The true American respects the individual rights of others, respects divergent views of behavior and decorum, protects the rights of free speech and free association. We tolerate that which is different from ourselves. We don't shame others into behaving as we think they should just to validate our own values.

If when you look at gay people and all you see are sex acts then you're objectifying people. Once again you worry and ponder, imagine and obsess over what other people are doing in their bedrooms. If all you see when you look at a da Vinci, listen to kd Lang, read Willa Cather, see a Tennessee Williams play, is what the creator of work does (or did) in the bedroom then you're a sorry excuse for a man. It's always been a mystery to me why some people should hate other people simply for their sexual behavior. Now I know why.

A person secure in themselves and their beliefs doesn't go around telling other people to be as they are. The truth is you're dreadfully insecure about your sexuality, your moral choices, and your life. You just can't handle the fact that other adults may make different choices than you do. You need to be validated. I've said before and I'll say it again:

Gays don't give a damn what you think or say about them. You constantly think that gays care what you think. They do not unless you try to interfere with their right to free speech and association. You don't have to love gays, be gay, or have anything to do with them, but the law states you must respect their rights as free adult citizens. So take your shame, you judgment, your holier-than-thou attitude, and tanks of hatred and wallow in them yourself because your right to dictate what anybody does ends at your doorstep.
 

B_Italian1

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You are saying that if we just conform to all of society's arcane dictates regarding sexual behavior that respect and love will come pouring forth? Do you really believe that?

It might help. I'm not saying go straight, but ending all the promiscuity would be a step in the right direction.

Is it really my responsibility as a gay man living with stigma and homophobia to make haters respect me? Are you for fucking real, AndyA?

It's not your responsibility, but as I said in another post it would be nice if you would actually try to help young guys avoid what happened to you. And my name isn't Andy A.

If you're referring to me, I suggest you read where I've repeatedly said that I am not advocating that anyone attempt to emulate me. I live my own life by my own rules, certainly not yours.

I know what you've been through and continue to go through physically, and I wouldn't wish it on anyone. I guess helping others isn't something you're interested in doing.

If you believe that you're such the superior role model for today's gay youth, how active are you in your community's Gay/Straight Alliance? 978 is an area code for Northern Massachusetts, isn't it?

I don't believe I'm a superior role model. I think gay people could be superior role models, but many refuse to be. I was on a gay/straight forum and the young guys on there were totally lost; depressed, suicidal, some already had STD's. Many would say they were on this website and others and got the impression that being promiscuous was the way gay men should be. Many didn't realize you could actually be in long term monogamous relationships. 978 is my street address not my area code.


The bath house I went to, the River Street Club, was very clean. I was actually impressed with how clean it was. The was staff constantly going about cleaning. It's actually a nice place.

You didn't even practice safe sex.

http://www.lpsg.org/50868-why-gay-men-go-baths-3.html#post1057045

http://www.lpsg.org/50868-why-gay-men-go-baths-4.html#post1057531

Oh I get it. It's up to gays to make themselves into the people you think they ought to be. We should strive to emulate conservative Wonderbread American families because that's what the majority is. We should be ashamed of ourselves otherwise. We should fear that shame because shame is what makes for conformist society.

It's not about emulating conservative Wonderbread America. It's about getting more respect than you do.

If when you look at gay people and all you see are sex acts then you're objectifying people.

I don't but your posts stereotype yourself as a promiscuous gay. I don't have to look at it. I'm reading it.

Gays don't give a damn what you think or say about them. You constantly think that gays care what you think. They do not unless you try to interfere with their right to free speech and association. You don't have to love gays, be gay, or have anything to do with them, but the law states you must respect their rights as free adult citizens. So take your shame, you judgment, your holier-than-thou attitude, and tanks of hatred and wallow in them yourself because your right to dictate what anybody does ends at your doorstep.

Gays may not give a damn what I say, but they do care what society says. That's why they are fighting for rights that society is not willing to give them. You should be very ashamed of what you did at that bathhouse, and to even post it on here and be proud of it is something else.

Do you think this is a good thing?

Sodomy Laws

If so, keep it up, and nothing will change.
 

jason_els

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I had no sores or cuts in my mouth or throat. It was safe. I did not engage in anal sex.

Italian978 said:
It's not about emulating conservative Wonderbread America. It's about getting more respect than you do.

People only care about getting respect from people they respect in turn. How on earth can you expect anyone to care if you don't respect them? Really? You talk about shame as if your feeling of shame is a way to get respect. It isn't. It's a way to breed contempt. If you haven't figured this out yet, look at all the replies to your posts in every thread you've posted in. You don't have the respect of anyone here nor is anyone begging for your respect. Nobody cares if a bigoted, closeted, libeling poseur gives them respect or not.

Italian978 said:
I don't but your posts stereotype yourself as a promiscuous gay. I don't have to look at it. I'm reading it.

So what? It's like saying, "Your posts stereotype yourself as a guy with brown eyes." I'd have to think that promiscuity was a bad thing for that to have an effect. As I don't, it doesn't matter to me. You're arguing from a set of values I do not share.

Italian978 said:
Gays may not give a damn what I say, but they do care what society says. That's why they are fighting for rights that society is not willing to give them. You should be very ashamed of what you did at that bathhouse, and to even post it on here and be proud of it is something else.

It's not up to society to give gays anything. It's up to gays to take their rights from the bigoted assholes who try to keep gays from enjoying the same rights as others.

Italian978 said:
Do you think this is a good thing?

Sodomy Laws

If so, keep it up, and nothing will change.

What on earth are you talking about? Most of the countries in red are Muslim countries. I see a whole lot of white in that map. Yes I'm for equal human rights for every gay person in every country but I don't live in those countries. Things have changed. Anti-sodomy laws are illegal now in the US and most of the world has either repealed the laws or never had them. Virginia can try to enforce their laws but they won't stand because Federal courts have ruled such laws unconstitutional. It's a law without teeth. Damn you are ignorant.
 

DC_DEEP

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That has nothing to do with the topic of bathhouses, and those are not actual establishments. Swinging was going on before the internet via magazines.
Yes, it was. And swinging has always had, and likely always will have, establishments. It isn't just "in magazines and on the internet."
What you don't seem to understand is that there are more straight people in this world than gay people. In order for gays to get more rights and more respect, it's up to them to step up to the plate and show the world that they're more than just sex acts. Being closeted is no reason to be promiscuous.
Are you insinuating that you think I'm stupid? Of course I realize that there are more straight people in the world than gay people. That's the most idiotic statement you've attributed to me so far. I don't have to have your respect to have equal rights - unless you know of a different US Constitution than the one I'm familiar with. I've already done my part to "show the world I'm more than a sex act." The problem is, people like you refuse to acknowledge any of my accomplishments, and focus solely on what you imagine to be my sex life. You don't have a clue. I have no interest in what you do, in private, with any other consenting adult. Why are you so interested I what I do, in private, with any other consenting adult? Just so we are clear, I actually do community service and education in sexual health, and I'm a rabid advocate of safer sexual practices (if you don't believe it, just ask any of those who flame me for going on safer-sex rants on this forum...) And yes, being closeted is a reason for being promiscuous. Just because you don't understand it (being from a non-discriminated group) doesn't mean it doesn't exist. WHEN PEOPLE ARE TAUGHT TO BE ASHAMED OF WHO THEY ARE, THEY TEND TO BE WHO THEY ARE IN SECRET. IS THAT CONCEPT JUST TOO FAR OVER YOUR HEAD?
I disagree with all of that.
I JUST DO NOT CARE IF YOU AGREE WITH IT OR NOT. I JUST DO NOT CARE IF YOU AGREE. WHAT CAN I SAY TO MAKE YOU UNDERSTAND THAT I DON'T CARE IF YOU AGREE?
I've read quite a few posts from out and proud older guys who are engaging in high risk behavior. I even mentioned in a post that since they are older they owe it to the younger generation to be a better example, but as usual, I was the bad guy.
And so you assume that everyone fits that mold? I've heard from quite a few middle-aged men who think it's fine to beat their wives. Should I assume that you fit in that group, too? Of course not. You may or may not be. I don't really care. But you are an idiot if you put everyone in some specific mold simply because of a few posts you have read on the internet. You have a beef with me? Find me one, JUST ONE, post, where I have claimed to have promiscuous, unprotected sex. Just one. By the way, your PM was pretty much like your posts: you read things that aren't there, and make bad judgement calls because of it.

Holy shit, can you stop being a jerk, just for a day?
 

guiltrip

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Well I dont know of any straight bathhouses except for some asian ones that market "massages"
 

B_cigarbabe

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Most straight massage parlors offer sex for a fee,guiltrip.This is why most people dislike you intensely 978, none of what any adult does sexually, is your or anybody else's business.
Bravo to DC and jason for their efforts to make him see the error of his message,and for not stooping to his level. All of your posts were insightful,rational,and informative but,I see he is still clinging to his old bs. Imagine if he was to make an effort some place where, his vitriol could magically turn to good deeds! Ok, I'm dreaming ha!
cigarbabe:saevilw:
 

dreamer20

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You've got to be kidding. Where do straight people meet? In clubs and other places. Then if they want sex they go to a house or they don't have it.

You aren't aware that straight people have sex in public bathrooms, parking lots, the bushes, wooded areas, on the beach, in the ocean, in cars and cemeteries? And in those "clubs and other places". But I guess you were so busy watching gay people having sex that you didn't notice.:wink:
 

jason_els

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I don't understand why these places don't sell or offer free condoms to participants..?

They do! Free condoms at the front desk, condoms in every room at the bedside, condoms in the playroom, free HIV testing and booklets on safe sex.
 

DC_DEEP

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I don't understand why these places don't sell or offer free condoms to participants..?
You haven't read the six or so posts where it is stated, quite plainly, that condoms are free and freely available at these places. Really, you should read the posts if you are going to comment. It doesn't make you look very good.
 

lilbear

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The initial post ie WAY to long. Unsafe sexual practices are responsible for AIDS- not bath houses. I have been to several and at every facility, condoms are available, free, and encouraged. You would be surprised at the number of "married, straight" guys go for sexual activity. I have seen many. And BTW, alcohol and/or drugs are frequently involved. Also, I have seen many "straight" guys j/o and suck others off in the sauna at the LA Fitness gym!!
I DO NOT buy the idea that bath houses cause AIDS. That is pure B.S.