Believe in ghosts?

B_Nick4444

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there are more things in heaven and earth than are dreamt of in your philosophy, Horatio

never ceases to maze me the positions people take, as if the concepts and words they are tossing around they fully understand, given the tentativeness of human perception and understanding

fudging amazing
 

D_Andreas Sukov

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im not sure whether they exist or not. be cool if they did though. same with aliens. the whole idea of conspiracy theories intrigue me. i like how people can actually make a really strong argument about it. i dont believe in that many but atleast one must true musnt it?
 
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I think it's a mistake to assign the label supernatural to ghosts. If they exist, they should be detectable or explicable in some manner. History tells us that for every phenomenon that has been assigned supernatural origin, science discovers a natural explanation.

The only way ghosts can be supernatural is if they defy natural laws. This has not yet been proven and only if and when that happens, can we know if ghosts are supernatural. If they do defy natural laws, then science cannot answer for them as science only explains natural phenomena. So until then, I'd say it's wisest to assume ghosts are a natural phenomenon.
 

D_Andreas Sukov

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theres discussions on politics etc and you seem to be getting too agitated by this pieter. put it this way. if they exist, how fun will i tbe when we die and can do things like hide car keys etc to people we didnt like. and if they dont exist, im sure that heaven will be just as fun. and if you dont believe in that well then, hell, you wont have a concious to have fun
 

D_Jared Padalicki

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Assumptions are, by definition, unproven conclusions. How can you quantify the goodness of believing in an unproven conclusion?

So why do you assume ghosts are a natural phenomenon if it's an unproven conlusion.
I don't quantify anything.
Learn this word, that explains a lot: IMAGINATION, your own creation of things that aren't there.
 

nudeyorker

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When I was growing up my parents had a friend who tried to convince my brother and I about all sorts of superstitions, spirits and such. I have never believed most of it but I have wonderful memories hearing these stories. I hate to admit I have always had a"Kitchen Witch" because I'm afraid of not having one. It is completely the result of an ingrained superstition...but who am I to say she protects the kitchen and my food always turns out.
I think it's important to keep an open mind about others beliefs and experiences even if they are the polar opposite of our own. Right or wrong everyone is entitled to their beliefs.
 
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So why do you assume ghosts are a natural phenomenon if it's an unproven conlusion.
I don't quantify anything.
Learn this word, that explains a lot: IMAGINATION, your own creation of things that aren't there.

As I explained before, science has shown that for every phenomenon that has been described as supernatural, a natural explanation exists. Given that, there is no reason to believe that science cannot answer the question of ghosts.

You did quantify. You stated that it's "better," (a subjective state of opinion) to believe in an unproven conclusion without giving a reason.

As regards that, "imagination," remark, please don't be rude to me. I wasn't being rude to you.
 

Phil Ayesho

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Everything you have said here is under the assumption that humans know everything. We as a species know very very little about the universe we reside in, and the dimensions we don't. A rather small, close minded approach to a subject science can neither prove nor disprove because we don't have the appropriate instruments to measure things our senses filter out. It's like radio waves and infra red. 200 years ago people would have laughed at the idea that there are invisible waves and light spectrums, yet they've always been there, even though we could not observe them until recently. Science is not the end all of everything, as most things in science are merely theories, and usually proven wrong by another scientific discovery

No, it's not under that assumption. Its under the assumption that the forces acting upon real matter are pretty well understood and can be detected.

Moreover, its predicated upon the fact that the human visual perception system is understood pretty damn well and that we have instruments that can detect far more than the human eye...
Ergo, any REAL phenomena that humans can SEE, we CAN detect.

Also- don't toss out the word 'theory' along with the word "mere".
That attitude demonstrates that you have no idea what a theory is, nor that theory is considered, in science, to be vastly superior than any mere "fact".

A fact means almost nothing by itself. One of my siblings has blue eyes.

That is a fact and it tells me nothing more than that.

But the THEORY of genetics explain WHY only one out of four siblings has blue eyes, and it accurately predicts how often that trait will appear.
Further, it explains the mechanism underlying the phenomenon in a way that enables scientists to create drugs that target specific gene expression, screen for genetic disease, or figure out how the HIV virus gets into your cells.


Theory, gives us POWER over reality. ..gives us the ability to accurately predict the future and manipulate matter and energy.

Because of theory, Sand, metal ore and oil has been turned into the machine you use to cruise the forum...

And all the quaint and imbecilic notions about ghosts haven't produced a thing other than money in the pockets of the con artists selling you that fantasy.


Sorry.
No we don't know everything.
Be we do know that there is no credible evidence for ghosts.


And while it may be possible that there is evidence we simply can not detect...
I would point out what a weak argument that is given that EVERYTHING that DOES NOT EXIST, also leaves no detectable evidence.

When you can't find anything, despite the best efforts off hundreds of years in looking... the likelihood is that there is nothing to find.
 

Phil Ayesho

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I think it's important to keep an open mind about others beliefs and experiences even if they are the polar opposite of our own. Right or wrong everyone is entitled to their beliefs.

And that is why we are in the situation we are in.

The republicans are 'entitled' to their beliefs... and yet people keep trying to affect the real world on the basis of those beliefs.

We are economically screwed because republicans were entitled to believe in an economic theory that was patently false... the notion that unregulated free markets are good.

Trust me, you do not ever want to be operated on by a surgeon who is 'entitled' to belive you would be better off dead than gay.


That's an asinine argument, to suggest that people are perfectly entitled to invest belief in ideas that are provably false.

The guys who flew the planes into the towers "believed" they were Saving the souls of the people they killed.

The NeoCons "believed" that invading iraq would be a cakewalk and stabilize the middle east...
and that belief, unchecked because, y'know, god forbid anyone should question someone else's hare brained ideas... cost 500,000 innocent people their lives.

Sorry, I can not subscribe to that particular idiocy.

ALL ideas are not equal.
Some are better than others.
Some are entirely right, and some are entirely wrong.

Allowing the people in a civilization utterly reliant upon technology to believe in malarky, unchallenged, is inviting social collapse.

Delusion MUST be challenged.
People making extraordinary claims MUST produce extraordinary evidence in support.

The only reason we live such comfortable lives is because human beings started challenging the delusional perspectives of others.


You are not entitled to beliefs... you simply have them.

And your beliefs, like every other idea, must run the gauntlet of criticism.
 

nudeyorker

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And that is why we are in the situation we are in.

The republicans are 'entitled' to their beliefs... and yet people keep trying to affect the real world on the basis of those beliefs.

We are economically screwed because republicans were entitled to believe in an economic theory that was patently false... the notion that unregulated free markets are good.

Trust me, you do not ever want to be operated on by a surgeon who is 'entitled' to belive you would be better off dead than gay.


That's an asinine argument, to suggest that people are perfectly entitled to invest belief in ideas that are provably false.

The guys who flew the planes into the towers "believed" they were Saving the souls of the people they killed.

The NeoCons "believed" that invading iraq would be a cakewalk and stabilize the middle east...
and that belief, unchecked because, y'know, god forbid anyone should question someone else's hare brained ideas... cost 500,000 innocent people their lives.

Sorry, I can not subscribe to that particular idiocy.

ALL ideas are not equal.
Some are better than others.
Some are entirely right, and some are entirely wrong.

Allowing the people in a civilization utterly reliant upon technology to believe in malarky, unchallenged, is inviting social collapse.

Delusion MUST be challenged.
People making extraordinary claims MUST produce extraordinary evidence in support.

The only reason we live such comfortable lives is because human beings started challenging the delusional perspectives of others.


You are not entitled to beliefs... you simply have them.

And your beliefs, like every other idea, must run the gauntlet of criticism.
I have the upmost respect for you and other peoples beliefs so long as they do not effect me. But when they do such as your point with a politician or surgeon then I will bow to your superior knowledge in what is best for me and all of mankind. The points you have made are valid however have nothing to do with the point of this thread. I am still feeling the guilt when I told my half brother that there is no such thing as Santa Clause. In important matters you sometimes have to go to the mat. If it's not than what is the harm of suspending belief? The whole argument can go back to... Is there such thing as God? Frankly I have my doubts, but there is the possibility that I might be wrong because many people feel otherwise.
 

B_bi_mmf

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Um Phil we were discussing ghosts not 9/11 and republicans.
This thread is officially all over the place. DON'T make me post the Thread Stopper video again! :D

In my opinion Phil's comments are totally on topic. He put the silly issue of ghosts into a larger context and provided additional examples.
 

nudeyorker

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In my opinion Phil's comments are totally on topic. He put the silly issue of ghosts into a larger context and provided additional examples.

In those cases when you have an agenda it's best to start a thread on a topic rather than take an esoteric conversation and turn it into something that it was never intended by the OP. To bring 9/11 and the rest of his rant into this is unacceptable. If you want to talk about another issue start a thread or explain how what you are bringing into this thread is in any way relevant. Because from the arguments stated it has nothing whatsoever to do with this thread.