Benjamin Netanyahu: "We cannot afford to take lightly.....

Discussion in 'Politics' started by Wyldgusechaz, Apr 6, 2009.

  1. Wyldgusechaz

    Wyldgusechaz New Member

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    megalomaniac tyrants who threaten to annihilate us." No attempt to even thinly veil his intentions.

    Israel WILL act to defend itself by wiping out Iran's nuclear capability and Obama's extension of a carrot to Turkey and the rest of Islam will be worthless when *Zionist* bombs destroy a large part of Iran. And Israel has the ability to do this.

    How will Pres. Obama reconcile the fact that there are lots and lots of Islamic jihadists who want Israel wiped from the Earth? How does he engage them in constructive dialogue? There needs to be an Islamic leader that stands up to the jihadists but good luck finding one. Rarer than 14 inch cocks.
     
  2. Jason

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    Yes it is worrying.

    Of course an Israeli attack would destabilise the Middle East, in addition to whatever damage might be done in Iran. It would be wrong.

    For leaders in Israel to stand by and let Iran get a nuclear bomb which their rhetoric suggests they would use is also wrong. Of course if Iran did get as far as dropping a nuclear bomb on Tel Aviv then Israel would have won the public relations battle. But somehow I think Israel would be past caring. By the way how far is it from Tel Aviv to Armageddon, and how accurate is Iran's delivery system likely to be?

    The way forward is that the whole world seeks to delay Israel and Iran. The only time that Israel could truly justify a pre-emptive strike to the world is the day before Iran actually gets the technology to nuke Israel. Yes I know today could be that day before, but lets hope it is not, and lets make very sure Israel realises that the world would not tolerate any earlier action. Iran is a harder case. Iran's megalomaniac tyrant does seem to believe that Israel should be wiped off the face of the earth, does believe that an attack would make him leader of the Islamic world and a great man, and most shockingly has support from the people of Iran such that he is set to win an election. On the world stage Iran needs to be made to feel important, which means we need some sort of buttering up Iran diplomatic and cultural initiative. Ahmedinajab needs to be flattered, and it has to be good flattery.
     
  3. Penis Aficionado

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    Perhaps we could all let them know how much we admire their lovely rugs.
     
  4. Jason

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    Best way of promoting Middle East peace I've ever heard.
     
  5. jason_els

    jason_els <img border="0" src="/images/badges/gold_member.gi

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    Israel is one the worst allies the United States has. Personally, I say dump them. They've done nothing for us, are in no position to do anything for us, and now that we own Iraq, their usefulness has plummeted. They've even had the temerity to spy on us and get caught. For all the trouble they cause the US, I can't say the effort has been worth it.

    Tell Netanyahu to STFU or we withdraw all our support.
     
  6. Flashy

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    Jason, normally i agree with almost everything you say, and your intelligence, informed and interesting posts are one of the highlights of the politics forum...but you are absolutely, 100% dead wrong on the above, most especially the bolded part.

    as for the Israeli's having the temerity to "spy on us", are you suggesting that ISrael is the only country to spy on an ally?

    as for the effort not "being worth it", well that is frankly, absurd.

    it would have been highly inconvenient for us to have gone in to Iraq in 90 and 03 if the ISraeli's hadn't taken out that pesky nuclear reactor at Osirak.


    frankly, in the wake of 9/11 many of the US law enforcement agencies, have praised the ISraelis for providing invaluable counter terror training to our domestic as well as foreign services.

    we have little to no experience in dealing with the type of threats we have had to deal with in the past 8 years...their help has been invaluable in that regard.

    I have written many posts on the topic of Israeli usefulness...they can be found rather easily with a search of my posts.
     
  7. MalakingTiti

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    You are absolutely right and brave to say what many others are afraid to for fear of being labeled an anti-semite, which by the way is BS word that has been hijacked and made to mean anti-Jewish.

    Israel talks big because they know they have the US in their back pocket if the going gets tough. Make no mistake, Israel likes us just a a little bit more than they like Arabs, and if someone were able to wave a magic wand where all Muslims were gone from the earth tomorrow, we would be the new declared enemy of Israel.

    The people in power in Israel now aren't even the real semitic people indigenous to the region. They are transplanted Europeans who have taken over and brought nothing but unrest to a region that they have no legitimate claim to. Judaism, as any religion, can be converted to or from by anyone at any time of their choosing. Don't get me wrong. I don't say their aren't crazy Palestinians around who do insanely violent things, but if someone displaced you from your land and then subjugated you, downgrading you to a permanent underclass wherein you now must go to an intruder occupier with your hat in your hand while he kills you and yours, how might you act?

    Personally I am sick and tired of Israel's crafty manipulation of the world, drawing us all into their fight. If they want to start trouble and/or keep the ball rolling, let them fight their own battles without the help of the US. I will never fight on behalf of Israel. I'm onto their game and have been for quite some time. I still remember on 9/11 when one of those Israeli officials (I forget the douchebag's name) said with a smug little look on his filthy face with a tone of satisfaction "Welcome to the front lines". F Netanyahu and all he stands for. He's a bigger dick than all of the ones on this site combined.
     
  8. jason_els

    jason_els <img border="0" src="/images/badges/gold_member.gi

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    I agree about the spy thing. Everybody spies on everybody else. It was shoddy work on their part to get caught and disgraceful as they depend on the US for their very existence. Nice way to repay your benefactor. It's reprehensible to discount the American lives lost because of Pollard's spying by all the lobbyists trying to get him a pardon.

    We could have sent a sub off the coast, sent some planes from Turkey, or what-have-you to destroy the nuclear reactor ourselves. It doesn't matter if Israel does it or we do. As far as the countries of the middle east are concerned, Israel's actions are our actions and vice versa.

    The training they've helped us with is nice... but it's not worth it for the marines in Lebanon, nor for all the crap the Israelis and Palestinians have to tolerate, not for the instability it has created in the region over the past 50+ years, and not for the public blame the US has suffered for Israeli atrocities against Palestinians.

    Israel has no desire to ever give Palestinians a sovereign homeland no matter what. It would compromise Israeli security beyond what any military strategist would find acceptable. That's a sad fact of Israel's geography and I don't blame Israel for doing what they believe is essential to their survival, but I see no reason for the US to continue to be part of that as I don't see how it serves American interests unless we're allied with Israel.
     
  9. jason_els

    jason_els <img border="0" src="/images/badges/gold_member.gi

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    I'm not anti-Israel in the least. What's done is done and the state of Israel exists in the form in which it was created. We have to play the hand we're dealt. I regard this, and just about any other international issue, in light of American foreign policy as I'm an American and I care foremost about the welfare of my country before that of any other. That's not to say I don't care about other countries, just that my own takes priority. Argue Israel, or any other country, in foreign policy terms and I need to hear why the benefits of an alliance outweigh the liabilities.

    PS- The history of the region is a factor in the creation of policy, but to get caught-up in the whole who-did-God-really-give-the-land-to thing is to play the game as Israel, the Palestinians, and the Arab states want us to. It's a maze with no exit and one we should not even bother to enter. We have to deal with what is here and now and do what is best for the US and her larger, more important, alliances and treaties.
     
    #9 jason_els, Apr 6, 2009
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2009
  10. crossy

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    "Israel has no desire to ever give Palestinians a sovereign homeland no matter what. It would compromise Israeli security beyond what any military strategist would find acceptable. That's a sad fact of Israel's geography and I don't blame Israel for doing what they believe is essential to their survival, but I see no reason for the US to continue to be part of that as I don't see how it serves American interests unless we're allied with Israel"

    ABSOLUTELY ACCURATE EVALUATION! Mr BB is a loose canon.
     
    #10 crossy, Apr 6, 2009
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2009
  11. Penis Aficionado

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    Well, one reason to support them is that when the shit really hits the fan with these terrorists, Israel will do the dirty work that we probably would not (for instance, bombing an apartment building full of more-or-less innocent people because we know one terrorist leader is in it.)

    But strategically, I agree, the downside of being so closely associated with Israel probably far outweighs the upside. However, the Israelis, like us, are a people who believe in freedom of thought and speech, the equality of women and, broadly, the right to pursue happiness as one sees fit. They are surrounded by enemies who despise these things. Strategic disadvantage or not, I'm glad we have the balls to stick up for them.
     
  12. Wyldgusechaz

    Wyldgusechaz New Member

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    I am dumbfounded. Why is it Israel's responsibility to give the Palestinians a homeland? I don't get it.
     
  13. D_Ireonsyd_Colonrinse

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    jason els:

    I may come off as a wacky conspiracy nut, but I'm wary of the christian evangelical's support by the United States for Israel.

    A sect of evangelical christians, calling themselves "christian zionists" have made common cause with jews and neo-cons in their support for Israel. John Hagee, pastor of the 19.000 member mega-church Cornerstone Church in San Antonio, Texas, who believes in traditional Pentecostal practices such as the "baptism of the Holy Spirit", miraculous healing, anointing with oil, and the "worship of the Lord through singing, clapping, and the lifting of hands" - as well as the "absolute authority of the scripture" - is the guy whose endorsement John McCain sought during his '08 presidential bid. John Hagee is a self-described "christian zionist".

    Israel, Jews, neo-cons have all made common cause with the evangelical community because Israel, biblically speaking, is the staging ground for Armaggedon and for Jesus' Second Coming, the "Rapture". They will tell you it is all foretold in their christian Book of Revelations.


    This is from wikipedia:

    Some Christian Zionists believe that the "ingathering" of Jews in Israel is a prerequisite for the Second Coming of Jesus. This belief is primarily, though not exclusively, associated with Christian Dispensationalism. The idea that Christians should actively support a Jewish return to the Land of Israel, along with the parallel idea that the Jews ought to be encouraged to become Christian, as a means fulfilling a Biblical prophecy has been common in Protestant circles since the Reformation. The term Christian Zionism was popularized in the mid-twentieth century. Prior to that time the common term was Restorationism.

    --------------------


    John Hagee, who's denounced abortion, spoken out against homosexuality and stated that he does not believe in global warming, is also a best-selling author. In his book Jerusalem Countdown: A Warning to the World, Hagee interprets the Bible to predict that Russia and the Islamic states will invade Israel and will be destroyed by God. This will cause the antichrist, the head of the European Union, to create a confrontation over Israel between China and the West. A final battle between East and West at Armageddon will then precipitate the Second Coming of Christ.




    Both evangelicals and neo-cons have been instramental in forging our Israeli policy. I'd hate to think mythology such as the Book of Revelations and Rapturous Second Comings are helping to guide american foreign policy.
     
  14. MalakingTiti

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    I am not anti-Israel either, but I am a bit tired of their bullshit. If we are ever going to get to a real solution, the truth must be faced by all sides and that means that Israel must stop pretending to be the innocent victim. There is plenty of blame to go around.

    The saddest part of it is, the only people who have the ability to end the bickering are the ones who are so deeply entrenched in the conflict that they are not likely to be able to rise above the muck in order do what is necessary to establish a real peace.
     
  15. jason_els

    jason_els <img border="0" src="/images/badges/gold_member.gi

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    Because the land the Palestinians are on is technically Israeli-occupied foreign territory. Israel has to quit all claim to the land to allow them to form a sovereign state.

    That is why Israel can march into those territories whenever it wants to without their action constituting an act of war.
     
  16. jason_els

    jason_els <img border="0" src="/images/badges/gold_member.gi

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    I agree with you. It disturbs me that at least some Americans support pro-Israeli American policies for religious reasons without regard for what it means to their own country and particularly so because it may include committing American lives in the process.
     
  17. Zeuhl34

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    Because in the official UN partitioning of the land, it was supposed to be more-or-less evenly split between Isreal and Palestinian lands. However, over the decades, Israel grossly gone past their borders and captured the Palestinian land and set up an apartheid-like government. The Palestinians are demanding land of their own that was unjustly taken.
     
  18. D_Ireonsyd_Colonrinse

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    jason:

    The wikipedia page lists prominent Christian Zionists to include not just John Hagee, but Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson, Alan Keyes and Tom DeLay.

    I'd hate to think a side reason we're pouring all this money into Israel is to ensure Jesus has a United States-supported Holy Land for the "Rapture" and Armaggedon.

    There is a whole thriving sub-literature on this Apocalytic scenario. Some christian zionists even believe that Barack Obama is the antichrist.
     
  19. jason_els

    jason_els <img border="0" src="/images/badges/gold_member.gi

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    Arab States: Do not want to repatriate Palestinians nor support them beyond arms and a few token humanitarian gifts-in-aid. The Arab states see Israel as a wonderful way to distract their own people from the awfulness at home and give them a common enemy to fight against.

    Russia: Does not want peace in Israel or Palestine, hence their support for Iran, Syria, and therefore, Hezbollah. Israel is an American ally and if America has an ally, Russia wants a foil for that ally. So does China and North Korea (who sells them weapons).

    The United States: Does not want peace in Israel or Palestine because it would make Israel too independent. So long as Israel needs a big brother to protect it, they'll be compliant with our wishes.

    Israel: Does not want peace in Israel or Palestine because the only way to get that peace is to, in their likely accurate view, overly compromise their own security. They like being able to invade or lob missiles at or bomb Palestinian territory whenever they want for their own security. Were Palestine a sovereign state, their actions would constitute an act of war and then Israel would be subject to all kinds of international sanctions for doing so. Israel imports an enormous quantity of goods to survive. An embargo would weaken them beyond measure.

    The Palestinian Leadership: Does not want peace in Israel or Palestine because their bread is buttered by the other regional Islamic countries who keep them in power. Were a real democracy to take shape, these warlords would find themselves out of a job.

    Europe: Doesn't give a shit so long as their oil keeps flowing, but so long as Russia and the US have their sides, they won't press either side too hard as Europe wants to stay on the good side of both.

    Israel and Palestine are pawns of much larger powers looking to continue a game that has served both sides well for some time. Both sides are locked in a death grip that will not be resolved until the major players back away and find the game not worth playing. Were that to happen, I wager the entire issue could be solved in a reasonably short period of time. It would take some phenomenal concessions on the part of Israel and Palestine, but it's not impossible if more powerful nations back the process and give it teeth. Anything else is lip service.
     
  20. jason_els

    jason_els <img border="0" src="/images/badges/gold_member.gi

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    I am aware of this. I too find it frightening and absurd.
     
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