Benjamin Netanyahu: "We cannot afford to take lightly.....

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some israelis do, many israelis did up until 2000, but events since then have ended that pipedream.

as i said earlier, below is the list of how Israel "serves american interests"

(i have reprinted this and another post from a couple of my original posts on a similar topic)

Thank you for your post Flashy. I have great respect for your knowledge in this area and you certainly did illuminate a great many areas which I had not considered.

My main concern, as I've stated, is the security of the United States. Without question, Israel has been helpful to us in numerous ways and I have great respect for the capabilities of the Moussad.

I am not convinced, however, that our overall best interest continues to be served by allying with Israel. Clearly, Israel has been useful where our own expertise has been inadequate, yet we're facing an increasingly sophisticated Arab world with leaders who are proving themselves more worldly than their predecessors. As we changed our China policy from Taiwan to the PRC, the time may have come for us to do the same in the middle east. This does not mean abandoning Israel by any means, but we need to acknowledge that the people who hold our national security interests in the palm of their hand can no longer be dictated to nor ignored in favor of Israel every time. In particular, the young people who seek to become terrorists find every reason to hate the US simply based on our unquestioning pro-Israeli policies. There certainly are other reasons to despise the US, I have to admit, but our support of Israel is a big factor.

If we are to succeed diplomatically in the Arab world, and I include Iran and Pakistan in that, we must become more sensitive to their culture and needs. The US must become less partisan and more considerate of the various factors involved and particularly so as concerns Israel. The middle east is just about the least democratic area of the world yet the people are gaining more power as their ability to share ideas and propaganda outstrips their own governments' ability to do so. This is what makes the terrorist groups, religious minorities, and tribal factions increasingly powerful. We need to address this new paradigm because as these groups gain power, their central governments lose it. It is no longer enough to give an emir a few Rolls-Royces and a box of jewels to get support for US interests. We have to deal with all the people in that emir's country whom he barely rules or contest his power. Afghanistan, Pakistan, and Iraq are good examples of places where controlling the central government is not enough to make a nation secure for US interests. And we have to listen to these people because they can cause us an enormous amount of hurt with relatively little effort.
 
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I think there is a lot of sense in this post, but ...

I think Europe is increasingly going to get dragged in (or certainly the UK, which admittedly may not be part of Europe). After all Israel/Palestine is almost on our doorstep. There has been considerable public outrage in the UK at the Gaza war, along with a view that there should be a peace settlement. Northern Ireland is the one example of a peace process that has worked, and a UK or European view would probably see this as the model. With this in mind what probably cannot work is the two state solution. Probably what is needed is a way to clear the decks of the legal framework which requires the creation of a Palestinian state and look instead at a one-state solution. Here we have two models:
- Northern Ireland, with an assembly which shares power between the two sides reflecting the electoral mandates but also with a complex system to ensure that all significant decisions require both sides to agree.
- Bosnia and Herzegovina, with substantial autonomy for the Republica Srpska.

My late night solution to the Middle East problem is to set up a single state with two or even three parts, with a Palestinian Republic having substantial autonomy (as does Srpska within B&H) and with a democratic structure that forces Israelis and Palestinians to share power. This needs agreement from the people of Israel and Palestine, and recognition by Arab nations. A tough call, but as the prospect of the two state solution vanishes I think this becomes the only call.

I'd love to think that would work, but I don't see it happening unless Europe puts it all together and makes it work. Immediately it means creating a neutral, unoccupied, Lebanon and a major peace deal with Syria, Iran, and Jordan. Without these, I don't see any Israeli seriously considering it. Of course, this is what neutral nations are made for and Europe has a few who have been there and done that. I think Ireland would make an excellent nation to be the frontrunner in such an effort. Perhaps Europe can succeed as they have the least apparent bias among the major powers.
 

Jason

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I've been reading through the last page of this thread, and find some L-O-N-G posts.

All nations in part invent their history. Ireland - North and South - is a good example. The North has promoted no end the Battle of the Boyne 1690, William of Orange, the Orange Sash, the seige of LONDONderry, Loyalism, Unionism, Ulster will Fight - it goes on and on. There's a similar long list for the South - The harp that once through Tara's hall, the wearing of the green, St Patrick's day, potato famine, Easter Rising and lots more. People say these things are why things are as they are today, and even tell you that this is why they are willing to fight, kill and die. There are even some misguided fools who believe this. All utter rubbish.

The reality is that people in all nations are bothered by what has happened to themselves and their family, which means that they are bothered about things that have happened in the last generation (say 30 years), and particularly in the last decade. Europe tore itself in pieces during the second world war with carnage on the battle field, civilians killed through indescriminate bombing, and horrors committed. These events are not now fueling hatred between European nations - they have receeded into history.

Problems in Israel/Palestine do not truly relate to Masada or the Crusades or even to the establishment of the State of Israel. Both sides will of course point to these, but they are largely irrelevant. The present problems relate to what has happened in the last 30 years or so, and particularly to the last decade. If it is possible to break the tit for tat violence it is realistic to see results in as little as a decade. In this is the hope for Israel/Palestine.

I have a horrible feeling the world is pushing in the wrong direction. A two-state solution with a Palestine which sees itself (and probably is) starved of land cannot be expected to work. The honour code is to the fore in Arab nations, and Palestine would perceive itself as dishonoured and therefore resentful, and there would be tensions leading almost inevitably to conflict. Rather I'm of the view that a one-state solution is the only way forward.

Probably solutions in Lebanon, Syria, Jordan and Iran are needed first. Probably Russia has to be persuaded to stop stoking these problems in order for there to be solutions.
 

tripod

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christ, look at a map.

i think someone hit you in the head with a beer bottle when you were unaware during your bouncer years and you have never recovered, unbeknownst to yourself.

do you ever actually read?

dump intelligence as your ultimate goal....it's time.

Flashy, attacking me personally four times is really unnecessary. You have a big fat mouth on you and I am surprised that you still have all of your teeth. How did you come this far in your life without getting the living shit beat out of you because of your incessant mouthiness?

Respond to what I post, but do NOT attack me personally. When you do so... it makes you seem petty and reveals your sad little heart.

Can you not get your points across without acting like a 15 year old? I know that you can. :cool:
 

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you are aware that Jews in numbers, have always lived unbroken in what was *THEIR* land...before some other Europeans from a place called Rome, took over, slaughtered or enslaved most of them, and brought nothing but unrest to a region they had no legitimate claim to?

if you are talking about land displacement, i find it hard to believe you take such exception to people being displaced 60 years ago, yet do not utter a peep about the *ORIGINAL* inhabitants who were displaced and scattered 2000 years ago.


No, the Tanach refutes this claim. The Tanach names the Canaanites as the original inhabitants of the land. {Gen. 12.} The word Hebrew means migrant, with this migrant tribe being descended from the migrant, Chaldean Abraham. As with the Romans, Abraham had no legitimate claim to the land. Several centuries after his death his Hebrew descendants, later known as Jews, returned to Canaan with the laughable claim that God had deeded the land to them for the price of their foreskins. However the truth of the matter was that the Hebrews "took over, slaughtered and enslaved "and brought unrest to the region" in order to possess it, as did the Assyrians, Egyptians, Philistines, Babylonians etc.

The Hebrew Bible / Old Testament : Sparkcharts


Iran has proven to be of "sound mind and intelligence"?

you mean like when they approve national laws mandating the stoning to death of women, or when they order the capture and taking of British Soldiers Hostages in International waters a couple years ago?

Ergo if the ancient Jews had sound minds, such legislation would not exist: :cool:

http://bible.cc/deuteronomy/22-21.htm

Stoning - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stoning#Afghanistanhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stoning#Afghanistan
 

Flashy

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No, the Tanach refutes this claim. The Tanach names the Canaanites as the original inhabitants of the land. {Gen. 12.} The word Hebrew means migrant, with this migrant tribe being descended from the migrant, Chaldean Abraham. As with the Romans, Abraham had no legitimate claim to the land. Several centuries after his death his Hebrew descendants, later known as Jews, returned to Canaan with the laughable claim that God had deeded the land to them for the price of their foreskins. However the truth of the matter was that the Hebrews "took over, slaughtered and enslaved "and brought unrest to the region" in order to possess it, as did the Assyrians, Egyptians, Philistines, Babylonians etc.

The Hebrew Bible / Old Testament : Sparkcharts


fascinating...except that is stating that the old testament is "fact", when it is not.

i do not believe religious writings of any type to have a solid foundation in fact.

indeed, many prominent jewish historians and other historians of a non-jewish nature regard the "Exodus" from Egypt as a historical non-starter, which at its very best contains only a small kernel of truth or historical fact

people who take the bible as some form of archaeological fact are rather bizarre indeed...

archaeology is based on science and facts while religious theology, is not.

most more secular archaelogists, such as Dever, Herzog, Finklestein, and others, state, my belief, that the Israelite tribes were in fact, Canaanite in origin, since Canaan was in many ways considered a subservient province of Egypt.

I tend to agree with them that while there may have been a tribe to have been enslaved within Egypt proper that eventually found its way into Canaan, the majority of Israelites evolved from within Canaan...

or does it not seem rather preposterous, that after unleashing all measures of plague and magic against the egyptians, a bunch of folks left, waltzed through the sea, which parted, then wandered in the desert for 40 years, when they could have just followed the coast, and in a couple of weeks marched north into a great and bountiful plain in what later became the gallillee and Samarian areas?

you can walk from the Suez Canal to Ashdod in Israel and it is 100 miles. (i would advise taking some suncreen and perhaps a parasol, though, and a couple bottles of Smartwater and some snacks.)

I don't know about you, but my mom who is 63 years old, still aerobic walks 10 miles a day in two and a half hours.

surely we jews could have found our way from the red sea to Ashdod in less than 40 years, no?

while it is always amusing watching Yul Brenner chase Charlton Heston and the Jews through the Universal Studios version of the Bible, it did not actually happen that way, my friend. :smile:

no, the critical consensus is that the ISraelites evolved from within the land and culture of Canaan.

there is zero evidence to suggest that the jews came from mesopotamia or egypt even, and if there were israelities who came from egypt proper it represented only a very small portion of them.

considering i just had passover seder on wednesday night, and most of my family spent it laughing hysterically eating brisket and totally forgetting the four questions, accidentally confusing the blessings on the wine and the bread, and having a grand old time, i would say i am much mroe comfortable with the reality of science and archaeology when it comes to Jewish hystery than alot of religious hocus pocus.

it is a fact that, as written in the Bible, that a very sizeable portion of the Israelites worshipped the Canaanite god "Baal", who was most notably "Yaweh's" arch-enemy, . the god "El" was who Abraham worshipped (el was later associated with "Yahweh".

In fact, "Yahweh", or our "God" was considered by the Canaanites to be a storm god.

like most religions, early judaism, was comprised of many sects, and really was nothing more than a cult, which essentially is what all religions are anyway when you get right down to it.

If you look in the bible where the god "Yahweh" is first mentioned, you will notice it occurs mainly in the Midian south of "israel".

Most non-religious based scholars believe, as do i, that there many indeed have been another tribe of semitic peoples that came out of slavery in Egypt, northwards into the land of ISrael, and with them they brought their own stories of "Yahweh" who had "delivered" them from bondage...as this "cult" spread, he was considered to be a god who delivered them from egypt and not merely as a Storm God...considering how easy it is to create a myth in modern times, imagine how easy it was back then...

by that time, he became associated with "deliverance" and the exodus...which became central to the Jerusalem Cult (The Exodus theme)

but in the bible, the Exodus did not become central to judaism until reforms 700 years later

"Yahweh" had promised King David that one of his sons would always sit on the throne of Jerusalem as long as David worshipped him, and thus the Temple of Jerusalem was David's shrine to "yahweh".

and in fact Jew's still worshipped a queen or fertility goddess as well, known as Asherah, and even the Bible referred to another "Goddess", Anatyahu,as the "Queen of Heaven"

it is a known fact that jews worshipped many other gods and goddesses during the time, but only the "covenenant" was made with yahweh.


you may go by the old testament if you'd like, my friend, but even as a jew, i'll take the scientific approach, thanks very much :cool:







indeed...and *WISELY* sound minds prevailed a long time ago in Judaism since there has not been a Jewish stoning in years...unlike Iran

you need a biblical theocracy to enforce a stoning, which does not exist in Judaism today.

when was the last stoning in Judaism?
 

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Flashy, attacking me personally four times is really unnecessary. You have a big fat mouth on you and I am surprised that you still have all of your teeth. How did you come this far in your life without getting the living shit beat out of you because of your incessant mouthiness?

Respond to what I post, but do NOT attack me personally. When you do so... it makes you seem petty and reveals your sad little heart.

Can you not get your points across without acting like a 15 year old? I know that you can. :cool:

LOL.

I *DID* respond to what you posted...you said that


1.
"Israel has a WAAAAY higher population that Israel and has enough soldiers to overrun Israel if it wanted to. "

I responded not with "christ look at a map", but with an entire reason why they could not do that, then told you to *LOOK* AT A MAP...which you should have done.

reprint of my *ENTIRE QUOTE*

how do they plan to "overrun Israel" when they have terrible armored capabilities, and have no way to actually *GET* to ISrael, huh?

are they just going to hop in their crummy 1960s and 1970s era Soviet tanks, and motor through Iraq, and go through either Saudia Arabia or Jordan or Syria, a total of 1200 miles, without any type of supply lines, any air support, any mechanical support or logistics, enough oil or ammo for all these divisions, without setting off a couple of alarm bells while they are crawling along 1200 miles of desert at 20 miles per hour, through other sovereign countries who might not like that?

christ, look at a map.


that is not a personal attack. that is a *FACT*. before you make such a dumb statement, not backed up by military fact and rendered a geographic impossiblity, you should *LOOK AT A MAP*


2. When you made this absurd contention:

"Well, they sure haven't... that distinction belongs to Israel. Iran has proven themselves time and time again to be a country run by adults, not scared little children (despite Ahmadinejad's over the top threats and ridiculous anti-semitic remarks)."


I responded with


"i think someone hit you in the head with a beer bottle when you were unaware during your bouncer years and you have never recovered, unbeknownst to yourself."


which, based on your absolutely bizarre assertion about Iran having proven themselves be so "adult", is a perfectly rational question to ask.

how else would you preferred i question your sanity? I attempted to give you an excuse for your absolute lack of rational thought...i never dreamt that you may actually have *NOT* been hit with a beer bottle and this delusion was in fact a pre-existing condition prior to the possible danger of door-work and its propensity for brain-related injuries.


3. you made the absurd contention that:


Iran's problem with Israel has everything to do with the way in which Israel has treated the Palestinians and dominated the region militarily through pre-emptive war.


and i responded with the facts:

yes...that must be the reason....since the Shiite Iranians love the Sunni Palestinians so much.

and how has Israel "dominated the region" with "pre-emptive war"?

do you ever actually read?


It is a legitimate question to ask, if you read, since if you had, you would not find that Israel has "dominated the region militarily through pre-emptive war", and you would also find, that Iran being a Shi'a dominated state have no love for the predominately Sunni Palestinians, and use them only as an easy way to attack Israel.

since you do not read, you would know that while the Israelis were treating the palestinians so badly prior to the Islamists taking over Iran in 1979, the Iranians and ISraelis had cordial relations under the Shah, and save for Turkey, it was the Muslim nation they had the warmest ties with, and that is saying something considering the times.

the fact that they were persians and not arabs helped as well. As for the palestinians, sorry, but the Shi'ite Persians don't give two shits about the Sunni Arabs, especially the Palestinians, as anything other than a weapon to be used against the Jews, that requires no Iranians be killed while inflicting casualties on Israel, and the brunt is borne by the Sunni Palestinians.

as i said, "do you ever actually read?" is a legitimate question to ask



4. When you make an obnoxious statement saying that it is time we should dump a very valuable ally, negating what we *DO* get from our alliance with them, you are indeed "dumping intelligence as your ultimate goal"










not one of those is a personal attack...they are legitimate questions asked, based upon your absurdly characterized "points". Just because you don't like their tone does not make them a "personal attack". If you choose to make yourself look stupid, then others question your intelligence, that is your fault.

when you begin posting like an adult and not a fool, you will cease to be treated like one.
 

tripod

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how do they plan to "overrun Israel" when they have terrible armored capabilities, and have no way to actually *GET* to ISrael, huh?

are they just going to hop in their crummy 1960s and 1970s era Soviet tanks, and motor through Iraq, and go through either Saudia Arabia or Jordan or Syria, a total of 1200 miles, without any type of supply lines, any air support, any mechanical support or logistics, enough oil or ammo for all these divisions, without setting off a couple of alarm bells while they are crawling along 1200 miles of desert at 20 miles per hour, through other sovereign countries who might not like that?

christ, look at a map.


that is not a personal attack. that is a *FACT*. before you make such a dumb statement, not backed up by military fact and rendered a geographic impossiblity, you should *LOOK AT A MAP*

It is not a geographic impossibility, totally improbable, but not impossible. I was speaking in a hypothetical sense anyway. If Iraq becomes more friendly to Iran, it could happen... although that scenario is again improbable and Iran most likely has no intention to ever take on Israel militarily.

Stick you map where the sun doth not shineth.

which, based on your absolutely bizarre assertion about Iran having proven themselves be so "adult", is a perfectly rational question to ask.

how else would you preferred i question your sanity? I attempted to give you an excuse for your absolute lack of rational thought...i never dreamt that you may actually have *NOT* been hit with a beer bottle and this delusion was in fact a pre-existing condition prior to the possible danger of door-work and its propensity for brain-related injuries.

Flashy, you are a fucking egomaniac... because I don't hold your beliefs doesn't mean that I have something wrong with me. Insane means mental institutions and medications. I can assure you that I am totally sane. Your assertions indicate just how far up your head is stuck up your arse.

and how has Israel "dominated the region" with "pre-emptive war"?
The six day warbrainiac. Was the Egyptian (which was the most modern military of the Arab states) airfoce not destroyed in a pre-emptive attack scaring the shit out of the entire Arab region?

You are a punk.

since you do not read, you would know that while the Israelis were treating the palestinians so badly prior to the Islamists taking over Iran in 1979, the Iranians and ISraelis had cordial relations under the Shah, and save for Turkey, it was the Muslim nation they had the warmest ties with, and that is saying something considering the times.

The Shah of Iran was a despotic piece of human shit. His was a puppet regime that had no legitimate right to rule Iran. If the Israelis were cordial to his illegitimate regime, then what does it say about Israel? The Israel government must love despots and hate legitimate rulers.

the fact that they were persians and not arabs helped as well. As for the palestinians, sorry, but the Shi'ite Persians don't give two shits about the Sunni Arabs, especially the Palestinians, as anything other than a weapon to be used against the Jews, that requires no Iranians be killed while inflicting casualties on Israel, and the brunt is borne by the Sunni Palestinians.

Your cartoon characterizations of the relationship between Sunni and Shi'ah Muslims is waaaaaay over the top and belongs in a Michael Bay script. I'm not gonna dignify that with any kind of a thoughtful response.

When you make an obnoxious statement saying that it is time we should dump a very valuable ally, negating what we *DO* get from our alliance with them, you are indeed "dumping intelligence as your ultimate goal"

I think that pissing off the entire Muslim world just so that we can be "best friends" with Israel makes no sense for diplomacy and peace in the region. Plus, I think that killing 34 and wounding more than 170 American sailors in a deliberate attack that was later explained as an "accident" is probably not what America should want out of an ally. The "accident" was a complete joke and you know it.
not one of those is a personal attack...they are legitimate questions asked, based upon your absurdly characterized "points". Just because you don't like their tone does not make them a "personal attack". If you choose to make yourself look stupid, then others question your intelligence, that is your fault.

No they were smarmy insults meant to hurt my feelings. All because I don't hold the beliefs that you do. But then again, you are such a sweetheart, so I should expect this kind of crap out of you.
 

Wyldgusechaz

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It is not a geographic impossibility, totally improbable, but not impossible. I was speaking in a hypothetical sense anyway. If Iraq becomes more friendly to Iran, it could happen... although that scenario is again improbable and Iran most likely has no intention to ever take on Israel militarily.

Stick you map where the sun doth not shineth.



Flashy, you are a fucking egomaniac... because I don't hold your beliefs doesn't mean that I have something wrong with me. Insane means mental institutions and medications. I can assure you that I am totally sane. Your assertions indicate just how far up your head is stuck up your arse.


The six day warbrainiac. Was the Egyptian (which was the most modern military of the Arab states) airfoce not destroyed in a pre-emptive attack scaring the shit out of the entire Arab region?

You are a punk.



The Shah of Iran was a despotic piece of human shit. His was a puppet regime that had no legitimate right to rule Iran. If the Israelis were cordial to his illegitimate regime, then what does it say about Israel? The Israel government must love despots and hate legitimate rulers.



Your cartoon characterizations of the relationship between Sunni and Shi'ah Muslims is waaaaaay over the top and belongs in a Michael Bay script. I'm not gonna dignify that with any kind of a thoughtful response.



I think that pissing off the entire Muslim world just so that we can be "best friends" with Israel makes no sense for diplomacy and peace in the region. Plus, I think that killing 34 and wounding more than 170 American sailors in a deliberate attack that was later explained as an "accident" is probably not what America should want out of an ally. The "accident" was a complete joke and you know it.


No they were smarmy insults meant to hurt my feelings. All because I don't hold the beliefs that you do. But then again, you are such a sweetheart, so I should expect this kind of crap out of you.

Tripod moves into the "Dull Knife Club."

Flashy shoots and scores with ease.
 

Wyldgusechaz

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Honest to Betsy, I don't get all the hatred toward Israel other than to frame it in latent anti semitism.

Let's see: Much of europe tried to wipe the Jews out, (yes the Austrians, and the Poles and just about everyone wanted Jews gone, not just Germany), The world begrudgingly gives the Jews a homeland, The Arabic world wants Israel wiped from the earth and would do so (just so it is clear I think moderate Islam would blow away the Jews if they could) in a flash if they could, Israel gives back land only captured after the Arabs tried to wipe out Israel, and suffers rocket attacks after giving back land, and somehow Israel is the bad guy even tho they have a freely elected government and rule of law and a solid economy.

If I were Israel I would bomb thew shit out of every Arab state, wipe them out and take their oil, but thats just me. Good thing I am not Jewish or in charge in Israel because i would not tolerate the shit shoveled on that small country. "Never again" means never again.
 

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The establishment of the state of Israel is part of a worldwide process of frontier redrawing following the end of the second world war. Inevitably the new frontiers left many millions worldwide living on whet to them was the wrong side. They either accepted the new reality or they moved.

No one suggests we now roll back the whole of the border changes following 1945. Uniquely it is Israel that faces countries which still don't accept a reality now 60 years+ old. Whatever the rights and wrongs of the post-war settlement we now have a state of Israel with as much or as little legitimacy as other countries created/re-created as recently as the twentieth century, countries like Finland or Poland or Hungary.

Israel exists. It is possible to justify arguing about the borders, but not its existence.

Israel is in a position which Israel alone cannot hope to solve. The sentiments of Wyldgusechaz (above) are extreme, but there are some who would agree them. Israel's recent action in Gaza was wrong as was the war in Lebanon and lots else Israel has done - and if they bomb Iran that will be wrong. But at the moment Israel's wrong actions are more or less inevitable, and Israeli public opinion and fear within Israel will ensure they continue. Their actions are wrong but inevitable.

By contrast outside nations do have the capacity to move towards peace. All nations have to recognise Israel. Russia has to stop stirring up trouble in the region. Until these two are in place then it is hard to see how there can be aby real progress.
 

tripod

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Tripod moves into the "Dull Knife Club."

Flashy shoots and scores with ease.

You see things the way that you want to, you'll always oppose a good portion of the thoughts and beliefs that I share. Now to what degree I display my beliefs correctly or in all their entirety, is my responsibilty. I have consistently took the opposing side against all threads pertaining to Israel's security and have provided very little nuance.

I think that it is good that I have a rather dull knife in opposing the security of Israel. That way, my strikes will be symbolic rather than violent. I have no desire to see Israel in a negative way. The calls to wipe them off of the map or the face of the earth are insidious and Israel always has the legitimate right to defend itself. They dominate the region militarily even though they do not have security... that leads me to believe that the problems with their security are absolutely HUMONGOUS and are too large to be solved with force.

Honest to Betsy, I don't get all the hatred toward Israel other than to frame it in latent anti semitism.

Let's see: Much of europe tried to wipe the Jews out, (yes the Austrians, and the Poles and just about everyone wanted Jews gone, not just Germany), The world begrudgingly gives the Jews a homeland, The Arabic world wants Israel wiped from the earth and would do so (just so it is clear I think moderate Islam would blow away the Jews if they could) in a flash if they could, Israel gives back land only captured after the Arabs tried to wipe out Israel, and suffers rocket attacks after giving back land, and somehow Israel is the bad guy even tho they have a freely elected government and rule of law and a solid economy.

Do the Arabs really want to exterminate the Jews? I have been dismissing this as some kind of a collective PTSD reaction to the holocaust or an overmagnification of some obscure threats... is it really possible?

I mean, that's why you guys come down on me like I am some kind of a crackpot Nazi whenever I defend Iran and Hamas right? You take their anti-semtic mindset and project it on me right? Well, I have been overlooking it and maybe sort of pretending like it doesn't really exist to the extent that it currently does. I can't really wrap my mind around anti-semitic thoughts... they seem like a sick fantasy or total bullshit. It just doesn't make any sense to me so I guess I in turn, avoid it.

Listen. as a critic of the policies of Israel... they are NOT the enemy. I guess that I was exaggerating things when I said dump them as an ally. It's not even a remote possibility and I was just reacting emotionally. I fucking hate anti-Semitics and a shitload of Arabs are anti-Semitic as hell. It sucks and they are wrong. Even though I go on and on about Iran's right to a peaceful nuclear energy program... I absolutely can't even believe the shit that the Iranian government has said about Israel over the years. And Israel rightfully should be alarmed as hell about Iran's nuclear weapons capability.

The whole thing just fucking sucks. I wish that the Israelis could live with the kind of security that we have here in America, I really do.

If I were Israel I would bomb thew shit out of every Arab state, wipe them out and take their oil, but thats just me. Good thing I am not Jewish or in charge in Israel because i would not tolerate the shit shoveled on that small country. "Never again" means never again.

It's a legitimate way to feel, but I am almost positive that more destruction is not the way to peace.

I level criticism at Israel because it seems that they do not want the peace that is so needed in that region (and that all humans need in order to feel safe). Granted, there are opposing Arab forces that are much more opposed to peace than the Israelis. I understand this and that the Israelis are under a great deal of pressure.

Achieving peace in that region is absolutely necessary. It just looks like Israel would rather blow shit up than talk. Obviously Hamas and Hezbollah are militant and hold a completely bullshit attitude towards Israel... but Hamas was elected to power in elections that the U.S. of A pushed. Is there not some way of dealing with Hamas that benefits the Israelis security besides killing them all? There must be a non-violent answer to this, there must be...

Being in opposition to the policies of Israel is NOT synomynous with being anti-Semtic, can you not understand that? Why do you consistently need to label those who oppose killing as being anti-semites or latent anti-semites?
 

dong20

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Being in opposition to the policies of Israel is NOT synomynous with being anti-Semtic, can you not understand that? Why do you consistently need to label those who oppose killing as being anti-semites or latent anti-semites?

Of course it's not. But IMO, the 'problem' doesn't lie in the argument, so much as the mindset of those at whom it's aimed.

Binary "with us, or against us" thinking doesn't work too well in situations such as this, primarily because there is usually no right, merely gradations of wrong.

The 'Wyld' persona, and others (it's not just him) appear incapable of any significant degree of critical thinking. It's not their fault, it's how they're wired. As for the people behind the personae ... who can tell.
 

dreamer20

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i am much more comfortable with the reality of science and archaeology when it comes to Jewish history than a lot of religious hocus pocus...

indeed...and *WISELY* sound minds prevailed a long time ago in Judaism since there has not been a Jewish stoning in years...unlike Iran

you need a biblical theocracy to enforce a stoning, which does not exist in Judaism today.
when was the last stoning in Judaism?

It is not state sanctioned. But stoning occurs as part of the violent acts committed by religious intolerant ultra-Orthodox Jews who want Israel to adapt the Torah's legal code which prescribes this.


Segregate the buses or else:
'Sinful' city buses stoned by ultra-Orthodox Jews - Middle East, World - The Independent

It is an all too familiar scene: the Israeli bus, travelling near predominantly Palestinian East Jerusalem, is pelted with stones that smash windows and startle passengers...The violence is part of an unholy war in which strident elements of the ultra-Orthodox community in Mea Shearim are trying to force Israel's leading bus company – and, by extension, Israeli society – to defer to their strict religious teachings and sensibilities.



Robert Fulford's column about ultra-Orthodoxy in Jerusalem

The people in Mea She'arim... are passionate about female "modesty," and will sometimes throw stones at women whose legs and arms are not, in the haredi view, adequately covered. The black hatters are even more fanatical about keeping the Sabbath, and about drivers who intrude on what they consider their haredi streets between sundown Friday and Saturday. While many other things are prohibited on the Sabbath in Mea She'arim, stoning is acceptable--even, apparently, mandatory. This grotesque tradition goes back decades...

Ultra-Orthodox Judaism: Death threats, attacks on non-Orthodox Jews, other denominations & archeologists:

Ultra-Orthodox Judaism/hatespeech towards other Jews. Who is Ultra-Orthodox Judaism/hatespeech towards other Jews? What is Ultra-Orthodox Judaism/hatespeech towards other Jews? Where is Ultra-Orthodox Judaism/hatespeech towards other Jews? Definition


Attacks on gays:

Homophobia as a weapon of war
 

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It is not state sanctioned. But stoning occurs as part of the violent acts committed by religious intolerant ultra-Orthodox Jews who want Israel to adapt the Torah's legal code which prescribes this.


Segregate the buses or else:
'Sinful' city buses stoned by ultra-Orthodox Jews - Middle East, World - The Independent

It is an all too familiar scene: the Israeli bus, travelling near predominantly Palestinian East Jerusalem, is pelted with stones that smash windows and startle passengers...The violence is part of an unholy war in which strident elements of the ultra-Orthodox community in Mea Shearim are trying to force Israel's leading bus company – and, by extension, Israeli society – to defer to their strict religious teachings and sensibilities.



Robert Fulford's column about ultra-Orthodoxy in Jerusalem

The people in Mea She'arim... are passionate about female "modesty," and will sometimes throw stones at women whose legs and arms are not, in the haredi view, adequately covered. The black hatters are even more fanatical about keeping the Sabbath, and about drivers who intrude on what they consider their haredi streets between sundown Friday and Saturday. While many other things are prohibited on the Sabbath in Mea She'arim, stoning is acceptable--even, apparently, mandatory. This grotesque tradition goes back decades...

Ultra-Orthodox Judaism: Death threats, attacks on non-Orthodox Jews, other denominations & archeologists:

Ultra-Orthodox Judaism/hatespeech towards other Jews. Who is Ultra-Orthodox Judaism/hatespeech towards other Jews? What is Ultra-Orthodox Judaism/hatespeech towards other Jews? Where is Ultra-Orthodox Judaism/hatespeech towards other Jews? Definition


Attacks on gays:

Homophobia as a weapon of war


fascinating...except you said it in your first paragraph.

It is not *SANCTIONED*. The state does not approve it.

----

from your post=

- They are passionate about female "modesty," and will sometimes throw stones at women whose legs and arms are not, in the haredi view, adequately covered.

- the Israeli bus, travelling near predominantly Palestinian East Jerusalem, is pelted with stones that smash windows and startle passengers...

-----


The Fulford column was written nearly 12 years ago.



Stoning occurs as spontaneous and stupid behavior, not as policy. The stoning also does not result in death. Throwing stones at a bus because you are a silly angry ultra-orthodox idiot, is not quite the same as the state sanctioning a woman to be buried up to her chest in the ground and have stones thrown at her until she is dead.



You also forgot to note, that specifically in Mea Shearim in Jerusalem where this occurs, even two months ago, the stoning is sporadic...random people have thrown stones at the *BUSES* not the people on them.

you also did not note that it is forbidden to damage property, and as such, the occasional idiots who are throwing stones are *VIOLATING* their religious beliefs. You also did not note that much of this recent spate occurred because of the cancellation of the free segregated bus service that used to be in effect in the area.

you also did not note that in your little "attack" section, the fact that these attacks are done by an extremely small and very disturbed minority of ultra-orthodox jews...and yet they *STILL* did not stone anyone to death...not to mention, *NONE* of it was sanctioned.

and how, exactly, are a bunch of ultra-orthodox jews who do not like gays, any different then a bunch of ultra-orthodox christians who do not like gays?

I support the gay rights marches, but do those orthodox folks not have a right to protest at the parade and make their views known, as long as they are non-violent?

On the whole, judaism is far more tolerant of gays then Islam is. That is a fact.

Homosexuality is not illegal in Israel. It is in most of the ISlamic world and where it isn't illegal, it is supressed.

The simple fact is that the 5,000 gay pride marchers in 2007 were protected by *7,000* police officers of the state of Israel.

try getting a gay pride march in Tehran or Riyadh
 
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