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temptotalk

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Well such is the fallacy behind the notion of not having to address minority interests, though as I recall, Tripod called it "pandering" (yet another revelation about him, I think).

It isn't "PANDERING" to recognize the interests and concerns of the PEOPLE who you are asking to vote for YOU.

Instead, it is laying out a platform comprehensive enough to incorporate all of your desired base of support. Sanders did so sufficiently enough for me (after BLM literally got in his face about it), but I'm pleased that he did because it'd be FOOLISH for anyone to take the minority vote for granted and ASSUME who they'll (we'll) vote for.


For one, it's already been shown (in various polls) that Trump, in spite of all his hateful, despicable diatribe, will probably get a greater percentage of the black vote than ANY of his party rivals, besides which Trump is no REAL Republican ANYWAY. He's just an egotistical blowhard snake-oil salesman saying whatever he needs to say and having the time of his life watching all the buffoons eat it UP. Hell, he hasn't voted in a GOP primary in eight years, I think I recall reading somewhere??

So to assume one doesn't have to address (excuse me... "pander to") minority interests would, IMHO, be a miscalculation. They may not go out to vote the GOP. But they may not go out to vote at ALL. And we've SEEN the results of that in the last two congressional elections.




Actually Elizabeth Warren would've been my first choice for president, above Sanders or Clinton. She chose not to run. Many of Bernie's ideas are good, and I agree with much of what he's had to say. I've said that time and time again.

I've also said, time and time again that who I'll end up voting for (specifically, Clinton OR Sanders, for a****oles who'd think otherwise) will depend on who I think will do best against any GOP rival. And my decision on that is still and WILL be in flux, based upon what has yet to transpire, and probably right up to my pulling that lever.


My ONLY concern about Sanders is whether his vision is too extreme for voters in a general election. Like Sargon observed, a DAMNED good idea is still worthless, if you can't win. As to whether or not I think he can... again, "the jury is still out."

Yeah i like warren too but i think she knew better than to throw her hat in this race. I think she knew the chances of the american public understanding and running with the type of run she'd want. Personally i don't think his vision is too extreme. Thats me though. America is a whole different ballgame. People are already mimicking the handouts mantra and zeroing in on bernie's own words. Couple that with the decades upon decades of american pie bullshit that finds it's way across the globe and you have a serious serious problem for bernie.

Even if he doesn't win his ideas will still be good. It's just the question of who would pick them up. Every time a democrat comes up with a good idea but has either serious or mild trouble with follow through america just chucks the fuck out of it as if it's the worse thing to ever ever.

And yeah that whole pandering thing is simple to isolate bernie sanders and others. To divide an what not. (Shrugs) it works. And has worked on democrats for years now. Then again you know that. Cause if bernie or clinton talks to the african american community it's pandering but if trump or cruz....... Yeah same shit different day.

At this point though. I think i've lost all faith in the democratic party winning this one. Neither clinton nor bernie will win. Maybe i've reached a certain pinnacle of cynicalness...i don't know but it doesn't seem to me that democrats are even paying attention to the battleground republicans have created for them. Which is a very very bad sign. Ok i think i'mjust rambling now. lol
 

b.c.

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Yeah i like warren too but i think she knew better than to throw her hat in this race. I think she knew the chances of the american public understanding and running with the type of run she'd want. Personally i don't think his vision is too extreme. Thats me though. America is a whole different ballgame. People are already mimicking the handouts mantra and zeroing in on bernie's own words. Couple that with the decades upon decades of american pie bullshit that finds it's way across the globe and you have a serious serious problem for bernie.

Even if he doesn't win his ideas will still be good. It's just the question of who would pick them up. Every time a democrat comes up with a good idea but has either serious or mild trouble with follow through america just chucks the fuck out of it as if it's the worse thing to ever ever.

And yeah that whole pandering thing is simple to isolate bernie sanders and others. To divide an what not. (Shrugs) it works. And has worked on democrats for years now. Then again you know that. Cause if bernie or clinton talks to the african american community it's pandering but if trump or cruz....... Yeah same shit different day.

At this point though. I think i've lost all faith in the democratic party winning this one. Neither clinton nor bernie will win. Maybe i've reached a certain pinnacle of cynicalness...i don't know but it doesn't seem to me that democrats are even paying attention to the battleground republicans have created for them. Which is a very very bad sign. Ok i think i'mjust rambling now. lol

When I say "too extreme" I mean for the average American voter.

For example, to come on out and say, "I'm going to raise your taxes," which, imo, is a "no-no" as far as presidential campaigns go (does anyone recall the last presidential candidate who said that?).

For example, Trump proposes all kinds of crazy s****** that anyone with half a brain KNOWS would HAVE to cost big money. But he never says "I'm going to raise your taxes to do it," because he understands the psyche of the American voter.


Bernie says the taxes will provide for substantial REDUCTIONS to the cost of healthcare coverage with an additional bonus in savings. That may be TRUE, but the average "Joe" just can't get his head around that, I think.

They stop listening after, "I'm going to raise your taxes."
 
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temptotalk

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When I say "too extreme" I mean for the average American voter.

For example, to come on out and say, "I'm going to raise your taxes," which, imo, is a "no-no" as far as presidential campaigns go (does anyone recall the last presidential candidate who said that?).

For example, Trump proposes all kinds of crazy s****** that anyone with half a brain KNOWS would HAVE to cost big money. But he never says "I'm going to raise your taxes to do it," because he understands the psyche of the American voter.


Bernie says the taxes will provide for FREE healthcare coverage with an additional bonus in savings. That may be TRUE, but the average "Joe" just can't get his head around that, I think.

They stop listening after, "I'm going to raise your taxes."

I agree but with the added caveat that republicans don't even have to explain. Cause most republican voters aren't listening and will never listen. It's the same as with (goodness...i said i wasn't gonna do this...ok fuck it) white lab coats/doctor stuffs. Their appearance psychologically brings with it a certain amount of believably just because. Forget the fact that trickledown economics has been proven to not only be false but to incrementally make things worse. Which is a very large part of republican talking points.
 

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temptotalk

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Sharpton will have no effect on how people perceive Bernie.
*sigh* i beg to differ. Theres a lot and i mean a lot of people out there that equate al sharpton with a kkk member (from the lynch happy dayz). And that isn't just white people either. There is no doubt in my mind that not only will it have an effect but that people so called "upset with the establishment" will suddenly see bernie as the guy least likely to govern a pig pen. Theres just way too many racists/bigots out there. Seriously, you have to add a trigger warning (haha political correctness) before you mention his name. All those voters bernie was hoping to steal from trump kind of just evaporated.
The table may be getting set up for a draft Biden - Warren ticket, if Hillary continues to look week. The Nevada Caucus is next and she is not favored. Blood in the water, sharks circle.

Hadn't thought of that but isn't it a little late in the game for that? Maybe? Possibly?
 

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*sigh* i beg to differ. Theres a lot and i mean a lot of people out there that equate al sharpton with a kkk member (from the lynch happy dayz). And that isn't just white people either. There is no doubt in my mind that not only will it have an effect but that people so called "upset with the establishment" will suddenly see bernie as the guy least likely to govern a pig pen. Theres just way too many racists/bigots out there. Seriously, you have to add a trigger warning (haha political correctness) before you mention his name. All those voters bernie was hoping to steal from trump kind of just evaporated.


Hadn't thought of that but isn't it a little late in the game for that? Maybe? Possibly?

Sharpton is what he is, ad I do no defend him, but no Democratic candidate would refuse to meet with him under the same circumstances. He is not a liability for Sanders, IMO.

Donald Trump has been retweeting endorsements from white supremacist groups. That "trumps" and baggage Sharpton has.

Biden - Warren - its hard to tell. With only two candidates running now, the delegates will not be split by the time the convention arrives. Unless a draft movement starts now it would be hard to see it happening. Some state deadlines have passed already so that is another issue too - so it is more wishful thinking on my part. Still this has been a messed up year.
 
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Bill Clinton presided over the largest increase in federal and state prison inmates of any president in American history. Clinton did not declare the War on Crime or the War on Drugs—those wars were declared before Reagan was elected and long before crack hit the streets—but he escalated it beyond what many conservatives had imagined possible. He supported the 100-to-1 sentencing disparity for crack versus powder cocaine, which produced staggering racial injustice in sentencing and boosted funding for drug-law enforcement.

Clinton championed the idea of a federal “three strikes” law in his 1994 State of the Union address and, months later, signed a $30 billion crime bill that created dozens of new federal capital crimes, mandated life sentences for some three-time offenders, and authorized more than $16 billion for state prison grants and the expansion of police forces. The legislation was hailed by mainstream-media outlets as a victory for the Democrats, who “were able to wrest the crime issue from the Republicans and make it their own.”

When Clinton left office in 2001, the United States had the highest rate of incarceration in the world. Human Rights Watch reported that in seven states, African Americans constituted 80 to 90 percent of all drug offenders sent to prison, even though they were no more likely than whites to use or sell illegal drugs. Prison admissions for drug offenses reached a level in 2000 for African Americans more than 26 times the level in 1983. All of the presidents since 1980 have contributed to mass incarceration, but as Equal Justice Initiative founder Bryan Stevenson recently observed, “President Clinton’s tenure was the worst.”


All depressingly true. For Bill political survival was everything. And when he needed to be cater to the racist south and the plutocrats on Wall Street he did. And now the racists have finally figured out the plutocrats across the aisle are doing them in. Now they have one of their own to vote for even if he is a duplicitous demagogue.
 

thirteenbyseven

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I teared up


The problem the Democrats and Debbie Wasserman Shultz have with Hillary is they can't sufficiently hide her from the voters. Debbie attempted to place the debates in TV's Siberia and yet every time Bernie opens his mouth more legions of millennials and devoted social liberals feel the Bern! By contrast when Hillary opens her mouth above a mezzo forte she begins to sound shrill, like Margaret Hamilton in The Wizard of Oz.

Caution: If the power brokers decide Hillary's super delates and electronic voting machine hacking can't guarantee a victory come convention time, will they go along with Bernie Sanders as the nominee? In the event of a brokered convention other viable candidates at that time would be.....? John F. Kerry has the pedigree but is looking more and more these days like an aging actor from a horror film- think Christopher Lee. There really aren't any charismatic, telegenic young John Edwards "Aqua Velva" Dems that have been groomed.

So...Joe Biden?
 
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keenobserver

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The problem the Democrats and Debbie Wasserman Shultz have with Hillary is they can't sufficiently hide her from the voters. Debbie attempted to place the debates in TV's Siberia and yet every time Bernie opens his mouth more legions of millennials and devoted social liberals feel the Bern! By contrast when Hillary opens her mouth above a mezzo forte she begins to sound shrill, like Margaret Hamilton in The Wizard of Oz.

Caution: If the power brokers decide Hillary's super delates and electronic voting machine hacking can't guarantee a victory come convention time, will they go along with Bernie Sanders as the nominee? In the event of a brokered convention other viable candidates at that time would be.....? John F. Kerry has the pedigree but is looking more and more these days like an aging actor from a horror film- think Christopher Lee. There really aren't any charismatic, telegenic young John Edwards "Aqua Velva" Dems that have been groomed.

So...Joe Biden?

The problem with a brokered convention - we really have not had one in modern times - is that the effect on the voters is going to be impossible to predict. I don't see a Sanders supporter accepting Biden or anyone else if they feel Bernie was denied what he had earned. In addition Bernie is bringing a lot of young voters out, a group that traditionally does not vote very often. Id they don't come out for the general election with the same enthusiasm then Trump wins. As a block, their loyalty is not transferable by party leaders to someone else. Hillary has massive problems on the horizon with the new FBI probe into the Clinton Foundation. THAT is the probe that will sink her.

Absent a new, credible candidate getting into the race NOW, I see Bernie as the nominee. Baring his own collapse, I don't see this playing out any other way.
 

tripod

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Didn't the Democrats learn their lesson with John Edwards? The man was a used car salesman who had zero integrity... he is a human turd. What if the Dems had nominated him because he was what they thought people wanted? That decision would have been an absolute disaster and you'd have something worse than what Ken Starr did to the Clintons... the Dems are clearly tone deaf.

Hillary has 100% support from the mainstream media. yeah FOX isn't a fan, but they like her more than Bernie. Hillary has twisted arms and made as many deals that she could to ensure her hegemonic control over the political left. Her supporters run around the internet spewing lies and misinformation hoping that nobody will check them... and NOBODY does. They get away with murder. Every debate was rigged in favor for Hillary and the audiences were packed with her supporters to make it seem like she has more "crowd appeal".

She's snowed her way into the hearts of African Americans somehow... nobody can explain it other than Toni Morrison introduced the linguistic frame and everybody ran with it... there isn't an ounce of Hillary Clinton that would actually endear her to African Americans other than she is the head of their "team" and her team looks like it is the "winner". Vague references to Bernie's "socialism" and how they are worried Bernie is a secret Communist... I saw Ta-Nehisi Coates squirming absolutely uncomfortable while he had a look of abject fear on his face when saying he would vote for Bernie.

Ta-Nehisi Coates Is Voting for Bernie Sanders Despite the Senator's Opposition to Reparations | Democracy Now!

You can't arm her supporters with information that would allow them to see Bernie Sanders in the proper light because her supporters are low information voters... facts and figures are meaningless. You tell her supporters that she is a NeoCon and illustrate her ties to the "Project For a New American Century" and her supporters act like you just called her a "cunt". Arguing with a Hillary supporter is like arguing with a child... you might as well just hit yourself in the head with a brick.

Hillary's corruption is not a debatable issue but her supporters are blind to it. Obama made some colossal mistakes in his presidency that he would have NEVER made if his supporters weren't such sycophants who rubber stamped every fucking thing he ever did. if his supporters were in the business of actually supporting him and not allowing him to make disastrous mistakes you know...by being CRITICAL of his bad decisions... he would have had a GREAT presidency. Instead, his presidency was a complete and abject failure.

But Barack Obama's failures don't fall at his feet or mine... they fall on his Obamabot superfans!

Politics isn't a fucking sport you fucktards... you don't have a "team" that you support no matter what... that isn't a democracy... that's more like the kind of lock step hero worship that would have made Stalin proud.
 
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Obviously, as most of the world has become aware, it's become more of a succession over there. Obama seems to have been the only interruption, because he was a spell from the previous Bush administration, succession, procession to the presidential throne.

Wow, the US a Republic? Yup, right, ok. Trump will not win. He will not even come close.

Your next Pres will be a Democrat.

The Clinton machine is that. Hillary just wants to get back at Bill by not having sexual elations with that man. Ooops, forgot the 'r' :), yup, she probably smoked as well, but did not exhale :)

I wish there was more truth to this in the case of Bush. If it was the Prince would have been reigned in.

I think the jury is still out on the Obama family, if I were a betting man I would say bet on Michelle. If Hillary fails at her run Michelle will not. Michelle is younger and though she wears her emotions on her face, I think she is probably more flexible in adjusting her positions to meet her desired end states. She probably has political savvy her hubby lacks.

Her Majesty Hillary may or may not get the nod. She is toxic to a little of people and burns bridges with a passion.
 

keenobserver

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Didn't the Democrats learn their lesson with John Edwards? The man was a used car salesman who had zero integrity... he is a human turd. What if the Dems had nominated him because he was what they thought people wanted? That decision would have been an absolute disaster and you'd have something worse than what Ken Starr did to the Clintons... the Dems are clearly tone deaf.

Hillary has 100% support from the mainstream media. yeah FOX isn't a fan, but they like her more than Bernie. Hillary has twisted arms and made as many deals that she could to ensure her hegemonic control over the political left. Her supporters run around the internet spewing lies and misinformation hoping that nobody will check them... and NOBODY does. They get away with murder. Every debate was rigged in favor for Hillary and the audiences were packed with her supporters to make it seem like she has more "crowd appeal".

She's snowed her way into the hearts of African Americans somehow... nobody can explain it other than Toni Morrison introduced the linguistic frame and everybody ran with it... there isn't an ounce of Hillary Clinton that would actually endear her to African Americans other than she is the head of their "team" and her team looks like it is the "winner". Vague references to Bernie's "socialism" and how they are worried Bernie is a secret Communist... I saw Ta-Nehisi Coates squirming absolutely uncomfortable while he had a look of abject fear on his face when saying he would vote for Bernie.

Ta-Nehisi Coates Is Voting for Bernie Sanders Despite the Senator's Opposition to Reparations | Democracy Now!

You can't arm her supporters with information that would allow them to see Bernie Sanders in the proper light because her supporters are low information voters... facts and figures are meaningless. You tell her supporters that she is a NeoCon and illustrate her ties to the "Project For a New American Century" and her supporters act like you just called her a "cunt". Arguing with a Hillary supporter is like arguing with a child... you might as well just hit yourself in the head with a brick.

Hillary's corruption is not a debatable issue but her supporters are blind to it. Obama made some colossal mistakes in his presidency that he would have NEVER made if his supporters weren't such sycophants who rubber stamped every fucking thing he ever did. if his supporters were in the business of actually supporting him and not allowing him to make disastrous mistakes you know...by being CRITICAL of his bad decisions... he would have had a GREAT presidency. Instead, his presidency was a complete and abject failure.

But Barack Obama's failures don't fall at his feet or mine... they fall on his Obamabot superfans!

Politics isn't a fucking sport you fucktards... you don't have a "team" that you support no matter what... that isn't a democracy... that's more like the kind of lock step hero worship that would have made Stalin proud.

Bernie is many things, but not anything like John Edwards. Edwards was a moral failure, I see Bernie being a policy problem - not a failure.

Hillary has strong Civil Rights credentials from long before she married Bill. She was active as a college student in Civil Rights movements and as a young lawyer in Civil Rights litigation and race testing. She also was active with Marion Wright Eddelman in the Children's Defense Fund. She has earned her support from the black community. Hillary's problem is greed and corruption. The FBI has a new investigation into the Clinton Foundation and her actions with it while she was Secretary of State. They are also looking hard at Hillary's aide Humma who was working for the US Government - Dept of State, the Clinton Foundation and a billionaire who was doing business with both. We are way past e-mail shit and Bengahzi - we're talking Orange is the New Black.

The Democratic ship is taking on water really, really fast.
 

keenobserver

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I wish there was more truth to this in the case of Bush. If it was the Prince would have been reigned in.

I think the jury is still out on the Obama family, if I were a betting man I would say bet on Michelle. If Hillary fails at her run Michelle will not. Michelle is younger and though she wears her emotions on her face, I think she is probably more flexible in adjusting her positions to meet her desired end states. She probably has political savvy her hubby lacks.

Her Majesty Hillary may or may not get the nod. She is toxic to a little of people and burns bridges with a passion.

Michelle Obama is not now nor will she be in the near future a political person. I simply don't see her doing it anytime soon, if ever. She's smart and credible, but I don't see that passion in her for it - she has more important things to do, I think. If she gets into politics down the road, we will see, but right now I think the country is done with dynastic links among their candidates.
 

tripod

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Hillary has strong Civil Rights credentials from long before she married Bill. She was active as a college student in Civil Rights movements and as a young lawyer in Civil Rights litigation and race testing.

Hillary Clinton cannot be pro civil rights as a college student because she was a CONSERVATIVE. She supported the 1964 campaign of Barry Goldwater who voted against the 1964 Civil Rights Act and vowed to overturn it if he was elected president. Hillary would beg her parents to drive her to Goldwater rallies and she wasn't even old enough to vote in that election. Goldwater was a fucking crackpot libertarian who wanted to nuke half of the world... Hillary apparently feels the same way since she has been one of the sole forces fervently pushing for WWIII. Her civil rights credibility is a joke and a fiction.

She also was active with Marion Wright Eddelman in the Children's Defense Fund.

This keeps getting trotted out as some sort of physical proof that Hillary is a friend to the black community... and it's a crock of shit.

Hillary might have once worked for Marian Wright Edelman but she conveniently turned her back on The Children's Defense Fund to score political points with her husband's opposition.

The progressive and children's advocate community considered Clinton's welfare reform a Draconian measure that would punish poor children if their moms didn't find work. The Clintons, both of them, supported it, and Bill Clinton signed it into law.

Among those who ardently and eloquently opposed the Clinton "welfare reform" bill was Marian Wright Edelman. Her husband, Peter Edelman, quit his high-level job at the Department of Health and Human Services in protest when Bill Clinton signed the bill. He was deeply upset about what the legislation would do to helpless children.

Here's Marian Wright Edelman's own words about Hillary -

"Well, you know, Hillary Clinton is an old friend, but they are no friends in politics. We have to build a constituency, and we profoundly disagreed with the forms of the welfare reform bill, and we said so. We were for welfare reform, I am for welfare reform, but we need good jobs, we need adequate work incentives, we need minimum wage to be decent wage and livable wage, we need health care, we need transportation, we need to invest preventively in all of our children to prevent them ever having to be on welfare.

And yet, you know, many years after that, when many people are pronouncing welfare reform a great success, you know, we’ve got growing child poverty, we have more children in poverty and in extreme poverty over the last six years than we had earlier in the year. When an economy is down, and the real test of welfare reform is what happens to the poor when the economy is not booming. Well, the poor are suffering, the gap between rich and poor widening. We have what I consider one of—a growing national catastrophe of what we call the cradle-to-prison pipeline. A black boy today has a one-in-three chance of going to prison in his lifetime, a black girl a one-in-seventeen chance. A Latino boy who’s born in 2001 has a one-in-six chance of going to prison. We are seeing more and more children go into our child welfare systems, go dropping out of school, going into juvenile justice detention facilities. Many children are sitting up—15,000, according to a recent congressional GAO study—are sitting up in juvenile institutions solely because their parents could not get mental health and health care in their community. This is an abomination."

She has earned her support from the black community. Hillary's problem is greed and corruption.

Sooo... a politician can be greedy and corrupt but somehow a friend to the black community? I will submit to you that a greedy and corrupt politician is only friends with MONEY & POWER. Corrupt and greedy politicians pander and cater to groups of voters ONLY to further enrich themselves... they are friends to nobody but themselves. Saying a corrupt and greedy politician is a friend to any community over their own hunger for more wealth and power... is an oxymoron.
 
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Michelle Obama is not now nor will she be in the near future a political person. I simply don't see her doing it anytime soon, if ever. She's smart and credible, but I don't see that passion in her for it - she has more important things to do, I think. If she gets into politics down the road, we will see, but right now I think the country is done with dynastic links among their candidates.

She is more political than you give her credit for.

She is the first FLOTUS I have seen influence Department of Defense policy to extremes.

If you think that the country is through with dynastic links then your in for many surprises in the future or your looking for real estate in the Everglades. I don't think the Kennedy's, the Bush's, the Clinton's or for that matter the Obama's are ready to throw in the towel.
 
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