Bi men and the gay lifestyle

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longtimelurker: Well a few recent posts have heightened my curiousity on this old subject:

How do bi men find 'true' gay men and vice-versa?

I mean: do bisexuals find the 'big gay Al'-type gay man just too gay? Are you more attracted to (or even only attracted to) other bi men? How about 'straight acting' gays?

On the other hand - how do gay men see bisexuals - someone who is too scared to come completely out? Would you feel 'safe' having a relationship with a bisexual (i.e. wanting something you can't give)?

Of course, there will be other lifestyle issues here as well, but I'll just see if they come up as the thread progresses...

 

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bradleeM: Regardless of ones orientation, sexual attraction is the primary reason as to whom we all decide who we will have sex with.

I am bi...................what I have been told by str8s and gays is that they "do not believe one can be in between". There is a trust issue, but there always is in any relationship, but str8s and gays make it an excuse many times in order not to have a relationship with an avowed bisexual.

I am not sexually attacted to effeminate types, whether male or female..............I am more attracted to normal acting males and females. Normal in this sense means.................a female is a female and likes feminine things and tries not to be a male in anyway. A male acts like a male and likes male things and tries not be a female in anyway. Just because he may like to be with a guy to have sex now and then does not mean he has to be effeminate or butch.

My preferences are more geared to just enjoy sex with human beings as completely as possible, role playing and the whole nine yards is great.

I am one of those though that does not play one sex against the other............in other words...............I am not with a man tonight and a woman tomorrow night. My focus remains on one gender when I am having relationships.

Hope that provides some insight to your inquiry.

Brad

 

[13788]

pghcyclist: I gotta ::boggle this

I am not sexually attacted to effeminate types, whether male or female..............I am more attracted to normal acting males and females. Normal in this sense means.................a female is a female and likes feminine things and tries not to be a male in anyway. A male acts like a male and likes male things and tries not be a female in anyway.

effeminate means acting like a female.

Beyond that point, our society defines gender-stereotypes. Men watch sports, support the family, and drink beer. Women stay home with the kids, cook and clean, and pretend to enjoy sex for their husband's benefit (OK, so maybe this is 1950s).

Unless someone is transgender, I doubt that they try to be the other sex for any reason. I also doubt that any person is a perfect model of society's stereotypic ideal for that gender. For example, many women like sports and many men like to cook.

It's fine to be attracted to hyper-masculine men with big muscles and big dicks or hyper-femine women with big breasts and barbie-thin waists. But to claim a male is not acting like a male because of some gender role he is not following is just ... well, wrong.

Scott (either going back to sitting on his hands or banging his head on a hard surface)

 

[13788]

blo1988: I am bi but I am more attracted to men, in general.
I think that it is impossible to pigeohole gay/bisexual dynamics. It seems to me that it is as varied as the people making relationship decisions.
The degree of critical thinking that I have employed in evaluating potential relationships has always been influenced by the role of the relationship. If I have been seeking a casual relationship then I apply a different set of criterion, conciously or unconciously, than I will if I have been considering a commited relationship.
I have had sex with men and women that I sure as hell wouldn't marry. I have also had sex with folks who I wouldn't be attracted to on an ongoing basis, because long-lasting attraction is more complex and difficult to find than short term attraction.
Fem or butch, gay, straight or bi....I have experienced a bit of each. Funny thing...some of the straight guys now identify as bi or gay......and some of the bi as gay ....and some of the straight guys who have man-on-man sex quite a bit still ID as straight. So, in my experience labels don't mean much.
I think that one's sexuality can evolve with self awareness. Heck, I can hear the changes in some folk's sexual attitudes as I read their threads over a few weeks. So, one can imagine what may happen over years or decades.

 

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Javierdude22: [quote author=pghcyclist link=board=relationships;num=1066936740;start=0#2 date=10/23/03 at 18:59:25]I gotta ::boggle this


effeminate means acting like a female.

Beyond that point, our society defines gender-stereotypes.  Men watch sports, support the family, and drink beer.  Women stay home with the kids, cook and clean, and pretend to enjoy sex for their husband's benefit (OK, so maybe this is 1950s).

Unless someone is transgender, I doubt that they try to be the other sex for any reason.   I also doubt that any person is a perfect model of society's  stereotypic ideal for that gender.  For example, many women like sports and many men like to cook.

It's fine to be attracted to hyper-masculine men with big muscles and big dicks or hyper-femine women with big breasts and barbie-thin waists.  But to claim a male is not acting like a male because of some gender role he is not following is just  ... well, wrong.

Scott (either going back to sitting on his hands or banging his head on a hard surface)[/quote]

Nobody says you need to drink beer, belch, scratch, burp, cuss, and watch sports in order for you to be an average 'man'. But holy crap, stop walking like you have running vibrator up your ass, lower the pitch in your voice, stop moving like youre permanently doing dance recitals, and try to not dye your hair in colours that hurt the eyes.

Yes, very stereotypical, but its what we think.

 

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pghcyclist:

Nobody says you need to drink beer, belch, scratch, burp, cuss, and watch sports in order for you to be an average 'man'.

depends on how old you are I guess. certainly this is one stereotypic image of men that is seen. I certainly don't see many women being portrayed this way in the mass media, unless they are being portrayed as acting "man-like".

But holy crap, stop walking like you have running vibrator up your ass, lower the pitch in your voice, stop moving like youre permanently doing dance recitals, and try to not dye your hair in colours that hurt the eyes.

you just described some straight men I know. I don't dye my hair -- hell, I wish it would stop falling out. My voice is my voice. I dance like I have two left feet and tend to walk about 2.5 times faster than anyone else. The point is not everyone matches these characteristics that you've so generously attributed to gay guys.

Yes, very stereotypical, but its what we think.

Who is we? Some stereotypes are true, some are not. Some people buy into stereotypes when they are forming identities. Some gay people have a tough time coming out because they eschew the stereotypes.

Just because you have these stereotypes doesn't make them true or valid. The gender/orientation stereotypes being mentioned here are very much a product of the society in which we live and are hardly universal.

Scott

 

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joe22xxx: I have a theory about being "bisexual". It's not really scientific, but more about my observations of my friends and family. As has been said many times on this group, sexuality is perhaps on a continuum. I also think that emotional responses are on a similar continuum. Sometimes I think of myself as "bi-affectional". By this I mean there are males who I love very much, and who I feel intimate with, but the intimacy doesn't include genital sexual expression. And there are women who I love very much who I may or may not be sexual with. The emotional component seems real similar to me, but I wonder why the sexual aspect of it is more complex? I don't have the desire to have sex with my best male friend but I do enjoy being close with him, sleeping together in the same bed, hugging him, etc. As far as the gay life style goes, what about the thug life style or the surburban life style? I don't care what haircolor people have or how many tattoos or piercings they have. Just my musings.....

 

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blo1988: Can't resist...
Internalized homophobia is a powerful impulse. When it is not healthfully resolved it usually has some kind of destructive outcome; both internal and external.
Having just read the last half dozen or so threads I would say that there is plenty of evidence that internalized homophobia is alive and well......and just as destructive as ever.
Peace. w

 

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longtimelurker: Just one quick point -

I think you can get 'effeminate females' - I personally call them 'girly girls' - the type of people that still have beds full of toy animals at 35, wear everything thats pink and frilly etc. etc.

 

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H8Monga: Oh those are the college girls I miss! I thought that was a phase that ended at graduation... I should keep in touch, well if I were that close to them.

I have never understood why effeminate men acted that way. I don't see many women who move or talk that way. To me it's an exaggeration of how women are... hope I haven't offended anyone. I never understood.

 

[B_DoubleMeatWhopper]

[quote author=Hapi Papi link=board=relationships;num=1066936740;start=0#9 date=10/25/03 at 11:30:31]
I have never understood why effeminate men acted that way. I don't see many women who move or talk that way. To me it's an exaggeration of how women are.[/quote]

Exactly. Queens are not aiming to act like women, but rather like caricatures of women. They're into the 'interpretative drama'; everything has to be bigger than life, exaggerated beyond believability. If we met a woman who acted like a queen, we'd find her behaviour unattractive. As far as that goes, it's generally even more attractive in a man, but try to convince a queen of that and you'll witness a terrifying metamorphosis: the queen > Bette Davis. That's a spectacle best avoided.

 

[B_black10inches]

I have a question for bisexual and gay men on this group. I am sorry if this is an ignorant or insensitive question. Why do some gay guys do the hyper-masculine style? I mean, over-the-top bodybuilding, big boots & shyt? Also most of the time it seems to me that it's pseudo masculine. Is this making fun of straight guys or is it something else? Do other gay guys think this is attractive? To me it looks a little weird. Is it meant to challenge straight society? Thank you!

 

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longtimelurker: [quote author=DoubleMeatWhopper link=board=relationships;num=1066936740;start=0#10 date=10/25/03 at 21:49:25]
As far as that goes, it's generally even more attractive in a man, but try to convince a queen of that and you'll witness a terrifying metamorphosis: the queen > Bette Davis. That's a spectacle best avoided.[/quote]

Do you mean attractive or unattractive?

It's a strange quandry for me, as all the gay men that I have known (which in real life is suprisingly few) none of them profess a preference for queens and most of them have said that they find it deeply unattractive.

 

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pghcyclist:

Why do some gay guys do the hyper-masculine style? I mean, over-the-top bodybuilding, big boots & shyt? Also most of the time it seems to me that it's pseudo masculine.

There are several subcommunities in the gay male world that are being discussed here. One community, 'queens', exaggerates female gender characteristics, either intentionally or unintentionally. Another, exagerates masculine attributes -- big muscles, cowboy clothes (denim), leather chaps (leather). Why do they do it? Because it makes them comfortable and feel like complete people.

Issues of sexuality and gender are different depending on the culture you grow up in. For example, in some middle eastern countries, 'homosexuality' is banned, but it is OK for a man to fuck another man as long as he is the insertive partner. Being gay to them means being a bottom.

In the US and many western cultures, the presumption is that every child is straight. Parents look forward to their male sons marrying women and having babies (and the reverse for daughters). Schools teach about Jack and Jill, not Jack and Sam or Jill and Mary. At some point, a gay person realizes that they don't fit that mold. Over time, LGBT people begin to question our society's gender and sexual stereotypes, and many LGBT people shrug them off because they don't fit those molds nor do they want to.

As I said somewhere before, I like the hypermasculine look. On another board that I read and regularly post to, there is a discussion about how the men on that group came to terms with liking muscle. Like coming out, there was a process many of us went through before we could admit to ourselves and others that we liked/wanted muscles. US society believes that bodybuilders are dumb, abuse drugs (steroids) and are narcisistic. Some are. Some aren't. In my case, I felt so inadequate in my body (skinny boy) that guys with the drive and desire for muscles totally intimidated me. (I hear similar things here from posters with large endowments who feel there is something wrong with their bodies.)

Trying to understand another person's sexual desires is hard. As people, our context is our own lives and our own feelings. Our immediate reaction when learning about another's desires may be to think, "ick, *I* don't want to do that." But this isn't about I, it is about another person and what is right for them.

Hope that helps,
Scott

 

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blo1988: Black10,
I think that the hypermasculine gay guy and the over-the-top queen are connected. Both are relatively extreme examples of coping, in different ways, with their homosexuality.
I can relate in some ways because I have had to sort through deep seated conflicts about my homosexual feelings....you know, family,religious, social issues that made me judge those feelings.
I think that outrageously effeminate men are probably so far on one end of the Kinsey scale that they have little choice but to express their feminine impulses. Since this isn't very well tolerated in our culture I expect that it creates quite a conflict. One way to handle this internal conflict is to do what rebellious adolescents do and "act out". That is, go over-the-top as if to say "I don't care what you think". Of course, it is a defense. They feel less vulnerable if they reject their parents first before they behave in a way that fear may cause rejection. Highly effiminant men, in my experience, often act out and say that they don't care what people think; but I think that it is clear that they do...they just haven't been able to integrate their feelings. Thay can't talk very easily about the hurt, embarrassment or guilt that they feel about being "different" than other men.
On the other end of the spectrum, there is the hyper masculine male. I think that their "acting out" is driven by their internalized homophobia. It isn't very well resolved...and so they behave in a way that will distance them from the stereotypical gay male. The most dramatic and troubling example that I can think of is the hypermasculine Marine who engages in homosexual behavior and harms himself and/or his partner as a result of his extreme guilt. I saw examples of this during med school and internship. It was always very sad to me.
So, each of these groups are coping with their internal feelings about their own homosexuality...just in different ways. We all do the best that we can sorting out our internal conflicts. For some there is very little peace. I wish that the world was a less judgemental place.

 

[B_DoubleMeatWhopper]

[quote author=longtimelurker link=board=relationships;num=1066936740;start=0#12 date=10/26/03 at 03:53:48]

Do you mean attractive or unattractive?
[/quote]

Oops! Of course I meant 'unattractive'!

 

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nacard01: well i never meet guys based on my size
if I do meet someone
its over mutual interests
I am a cute guy with a lot of good attributes
but I care more about heart and personality
I am fragile and care about things that affect emotion and heart.

Kermit
Takes a pretty special guy to fill my quota of caring. Sex is just part of it. for me looks 20% personality etc etc etc 75% check book 5% simply because I get tired of always payign lol

Kermit

 

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Javierdude22:

Just because you have these stereotypes doesn't make them true or valid.  The gender/orientation stereotypes being mentioned here are very much a product of the society in which we live and are hardly universal.

Scott

Nobody can speak for what all bi people think, but I know there is a large portion that think: just act normal. And yes, normal is what you make of it, but we all know what is meant by it. Although it is of course very uncool in this liberal age to disapprove of any lifestyle, the fact is that many do.

[quote author=pghcyclist link=board=relationships;num=1066936740;start=0#5 date=10/24/03 at 03:57:35]

depends on how old you are I guess.  certainly this is one stereotypic image of men that is seen.  I certainly don't see many women being portrayed this way in the mass media, unless they are being portrayed as acting "man-like".[/quote]

Yes, that is one stereotypic image. But as you pleaded for the gay community, not every straight stereotypic image applies universally. So you feel that in your age category this machismo ritual is required? Have people in your direct surroundings like work or family confronted you with it? Because I do not believe that. Maybe in public yes, but that would be the same as me argumenting that I get harrassed by feminine guys. I think it is also very much that the gay community doesnt feel comfortable around straight people. This biased view that straight people cant handle gays is not factual anymore. Maybe yóu guys feel you should fit in somewhere when nobody ever mentioned it. But yes, the straight community is a bit larger than the gay so you encounter more str8's and maybe feel cornered by it. We have even seen it enough in shows like Will&Grace where 'the str8's should keep the kissing to themselves as its disgusting'. Gay people have a voice, and use it well, certainly in Holland.

This could in part be a discussion we have held in the media here in Holland. Holland is very different from any other country, and one of the most liberal ones. We have recently had the discussion that we have cuddled our gay community to death already and that they should now get with the program. Becuase it is never enough. The last gay parade in Amsterdam, it was banned to flash people with genitals, and a general request for less nudity. Immediately Amsterdam was being called the conservative city for it by the gay community. It doesn't work like that. There are people who get offended by how you think you are entitled to portray yourself in public.

Who is we?  Some stereotypes are true, some are not.  Some people buy into stereotypes when they are forming identities.  Some gay people have a tough time coming out because they eschew the stereotypes.

This is where my personal grievances do come in Throb. Scott, you say that som gay people have a tough time coming out because they eschew the stereotypes. You put the blame here in the by the straight community created stereotypes for gays. Well, again, not everything here is rooted in the straight community. Maybe many gay people, and maybe many bi people see this 'gay lifestyle' we talk about here, and think: Holy Crap, I ám attracted to guys but I dont wanna be like this dude with the funny walk/voice/clothing/choice of words/movements/promiscuity. They see a substantial part of the gay community with this lifestyle an are afraid of coming out because they will be put in the same corner with them.

Its difficult. I guess its all a matter of perspective.

 

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dable_wi: Those are some good points, Javier.

I have always misunderstood the fringe element of the gay community. The flamboyant individuals who, as you put it, "flash" during the Pride parade, etc., do so at a grave injustice to the entire community. They are the element who are represented as somewhat typical in the mainstream media. Theirs are the actions that the homophobics portray as those of all homosexuals.

I know some very effeminate men. Their flamboyance seems to me like much more of an act than an innate inclination. IMHO, if some of them would put some effort into studying and imitating the way that masculine men act, not only would the world be a bit more accommodating, but they would feel more comfortable with themselves. They would also attract more of the right kind of attention from other men.

I was at a mall recently and a male hair stylist came swishing by with two female friends. His actions were so exaggeratedly feminine that people were stopping, pointing and laughing. I would have a hard time believing it was the reaction that he was looking for.

 

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blo1988: Jav,
I know what you mean about not wanting to be like the guy with the funny walk,etc,etc.
When I first admitted to being attracted to guys I was around an increasing number of gay guys and I would get really put off by flamboyant behavior and remarks (girlfriend and stuff like that). It took time for me to realize that the REASON I judged it was because I was very uncomfortable with my own homosexuality. Hell, I had straight friends who were more comfortable with flamboyant gay guys than me. The difference was that they were settled in their sexuality.
I judged flamboyant behavior and didn't realize how much it reflected my own self-judgement. My background made acceptance of my homosexual interests very difficult for me....partially because I was conditioned to find effeminant behavior offensive, weak, and degrading. It made it much more difficult for me to accept that I might even be (oh my God)GAY.......because I couldn't accept myself as a future "swishy faggot". You know, I was a jock, attractive, well connected,blah,blah,blah. And I had fucked more women than many of my totally straight friends.
Well, that line of thinking was totally counter-productive.
On the other hand, I agree that public displays of genitals, etc are outside appropriate bounds. But some of your other remarks sound alot like you are affected, to a degree that you may not realize, by your own homophobia. I honestly hope that you don't take offense. It is offered from someone who as been there, but it is a tough road to go down and I don't recommend it.
Peace