Bi men and the gay lifestyle

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dable_wi: Thanks for the post, Blo,

I can only assume that you are responding to me, not Jav.

If my previous post sounded too jugemental, I apologize. That was not my intention.

My point is this: The image that many flamboyant men project is, in many cases, as much an act as the masculine image projected by others. The difference between the two is that the flamboyant men ARE men and, as much as we hate to admit it, the world expects men to act like men, i.e., masculine. That is why the people in the mall in my previous post reacted the way they did.

Now, if the hair stylist has enough personal conviction to dismiss the comments, etc., of others, more power to him. However, he, like most, may very well be affected by the comments and cruel remarks of others. Therefore, he might consider toning down the "act" a bit and, by doing so, might even discover that acting masculine is not only easier, but more comfortable for him. Don't get me wrong: I fully support the guy's decision to act however he (s)wishes.
 
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blo1988: No, I wasn't confused about the reply, but I think that my sentiments apply to homophobia in any form.
The effects of homophobia are sometimes obvious and sometimes subtle. I was attempting to explain that we absorb judgemental attitudes regarding "acceptable" feelings and behaviors at a very young age. They can flavor our thinking so much that we don't appreciate their impact on our reactions.
I would argue that a lot of the people who write in these pages have struggled, or are struggling, with their feelings because they are in the psychological double bind. They have homosexual feelings but can't simply try to UNDERSTAND or APPRECIATE them because they have an conditioned reflex to JUDGE them before the thoughts and/or experiences are fully formed. Our feelings about the gender of the person we love or have sex with are much more heavily prejudiced than our feelings about which house to buy, job to take, food to eat , color to paint, hobby to enjoy.
When this happens it is inherently more difficult to integrate our thoughts on sexual and emotional intimacy in a balanced way. As a result our relationship decisions are fundamentally altered. I have lived through, and witnessed, many troubled relationships that suffer from this failing.
One consequence of our internalized prejudices, whether it is racism, sexism,or homphobia; is that we can begin to defend them in ourselves and in others. This can be subtle, like explaining away finger pointing in a mall, or laughing at homphobic remarks in a public setting.
Let me give an example...I was in a microbrewery/restaurant recently in the town where I live. I dashed in to get a quick bite and a baseball game was on. The "Queer Eye for the Straight Guy" was also on. A very loud, obnoxious, and astonishingly profane fellow (this is a pretty nice place) was sitting a few seats down. He had obviously been drinking too much and when one of the patrons asked that one of the bartenders change the channel to "Queer Eye" he made some loude,pointed and profane remarks. Well, this escalated as the channel was switched back and forth between station breaks until he finally yelled " I don't want to watch a bunch of fucking faggots on some goddamn, fucking, faggot tv show, etc,etc". Well, the bartenders were all 20-something and they just laughed it off, as did a few of the guys at the bar, but some other folks in nearby tables were clearly not amused by his profanity or his bigotry.
I said and did nothing at first. I was angry, but like countless other times in my life, said and did nothing. Then I began to think of all the times that I had felt uncomfortable when "fag" jokes were made as I was sorting out my sexuality and I began to think of the impact of this kind of crap in our culture. Well, I decided to do something. I asked my waiter/bartender if he knew the patron and he mentioned that he was a "regular". I went to the manager and made my displeasure clear. He was appropriately apologetic and advised that he would throw the guy out if it happened again and that he would counsel his staff.
It turns out that the loud mouthed lush is very close friends with several of my gay friends and they suspect that he has "issues". ...............I'll say.
So, the point of the story is that everyone in that vignette was dealing with their feelings about homosexuality. In my past I politely chucked at many a "fag" joke in the locker room. I had swallowed the belief that it was something to degrade.
Not anymore.
It simply isn't any more understandable to tolerate 'faggot" jokes than it is to tolerate "Nigger" or "spic" jokes. So why do we rationalize it? Why do we tolerate it? Because we buy in to the fact that it is something to be ashamed of. And what's more, we are afraid that if we say something we might be thought of as "one of them".
Homophobia is alive and well my friends. It lives in our culture and in all of us...gay straight or bisexual. The challenge is to be honest with ourselves about it AND IT'S IMPACT ON OUR LIVES. It affects us more than we may realize....and like any prejudice, it is never good.
Peace.
 
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longtimelurker: [quote author=blo1988 link=board=relationships;num=1066936740;start=20#21 date=10/29/03 at 21:36:44] It simply isn't any more understandable to tolerate 'faggot" jokes than it is to tolerate "Nigger" or "spic" jokes. So why do we rationalize it? Why do we tolerate it? Because we buy in to the fact that it is something to be ashamed of. And what's more, we are afraid that if we say something we might be thought of as "one of them".[/quote]

I think another problem is that a lot of the population (esp. in the conservative religious community it seems - just look at the 'gay bishop' rows) still feel that homosexuality is a lifestyle choice rather than something that you're born with. As long as its something that you have a choice over then society is more likely to see it as fair game.

Something else to throw into the lions den is a thought that I had more recently -

Is the cause of some people's discomfort being around hyper-effeminate men due to a perception that they are acting sexually? I personally feel uncomfortable around people acting sexually in what I feel are innapropriate situations no matter whether they are gay or straight.

What got me thinking about this is that, being in a university environment I've just met a whole load of new people. I was in a bar with a couple of them that were extremely camp and I found myself feeling this strange urge to sit and talk in as masculine a way as possible (no, I don't really know why I felt the need to, either - and I found it quite funny afterwards, as I usually feel that I am quite comfortable with my sexuality). There was another guy that I was sitting with a few nights later that was lightly effeminate (enough that you could still identify him as gay), but I found that this didn't bother me at all - I actually found that it made him seem a lot more open, honest and friendly than most of the other guys that I talked to that evening.
 

jonb

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Since we're talking about biology, I have a theory about homosexuality and alliances that I've been working on. Another possibility is K-selected altruism.
 
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BrownEyedGuy: [quote author=nacard01 link=board=relationships;num=1066936740;start=0#16 date=10/27/03 at 00:29:12]I am a cute guy with a lot of good attributes
but I care more about heart and personality
I am fragile and care about things that affect emotion and heart.

Kermit
Takes a pretty special guy to fill my quota of caring.  Sex is just part of it.  for me looks 20% personality etc etc etc 75% check book 5% simply because I get tired of always payign lol

Kermit[/quote]

Kermit,

You sound exactly like the type of guy I have been trying to find. Pvt msg me and I'll give you the link to my gay.com profile.
 
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joe22xxx: I have a friend from grade school and high school who is gay. I've talked about him before on this group. I can remember we were discussing his being gay at a time when he was still struggling with it a great deal. He said, "Joe, I'm afraid I'll end up being a hairdresser." Once again I didn't know what to say, but now thinking back on it, it seems like a very homophobic comment. My buddy was very fearful of the sterotypes, but didn't yet understand his own prejudices. This was a big lesson for me in self-acceptance.
 
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pghcyclist:
This is where my personal grievances do come in Throb. Scott, you say that som gay people have a tough time coming out because they eschew the stereotypes. You put the blame here in the by the straight community created stereotypes for gays.

I think you need to go back and re-read what I wrote. I never put the blame on straights for the stereotypes. I put the blame on society and social conditioning. Gays, women, men, bisexuals, transexuals, etc all make up this society and community.

Well, again, not everything here is rooted in the straight community. Maybe many gay people, and maybe many bi people see this 'gay lifestyle' we talk about here, and think: Holy Crap, I ám attracted to guys but I dont wanna be like this dude with the funny walk/voice/clothing/choice of words/movements/promiscuity. They see a substantial part of the gay community with this lifestyle an are afraid of coming out because they will be put in the same corner with them.

Other people have already addressed the topic of internalized homophobia.
 
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Javierdude22: Scott, I mean this with the utmost respect possible, but you have no idea what I meant with that second quote. Maybe because of incareful reading, but most likely because of an inherent biased view you have on this topic (and me as well probably).

I could not put it in writing clearer, it would take a verbal explanation to make it clear, so i'll leave it. i think and hope that likeminded people understood the distinction I tried to make though, and the views on it.

Jav
 
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pghcyclist:
Scott, I mean this with the utmost respect possible, but you have no idea what I meant with that second quote.

You don't know what is meant by your feelings? My point is simple... these people are doing nothing wrong. If you have a problem, it is your problem, not theirs. Whether or not other people may or may not agree with those sentiments, it does not change the fact that this is your (or their) problem. Another person may behave as they see fit or they feel comfortable, and you have absolutely no control over them. That is the point.

To bring this around to an on-topic discussion, should a man with a large penis hide it when someone comes to a urinal next to him because it makes other people uncomfortable? Should people be picked on because they choose to wear tight clothing that accentuate the bulge? If another person objects to these choices, whose problem is it -- the person who made the choice or the person who feels some emotional reaction to it? I say the latter.

Maybe because of incareful reading, but most likely because of an inherent biased view you have on this topic (and me as well probably).

The other point is that you have the bias, not I. Acknowledging that there is a social conditioning is not a bias, it is pointing out the obvious. Acknowledging that the problem is yours demonstrates the source of bias.