rodsmith: There are so many of us out there, how many of you have shared your secret with a friend or have been successful in finding a local buddy in the same frame of mind?
[quote author=rodsmith link=board=meetgreet;num=1053808452;start=0#0 date=05/24/03 at 13:34:12]how many of you have shared your secret with a friend or have been successful in finding a local buddy in the same frame of mind?[/quote]
In my case, there is no "secret". I don't hide the fact that I'm gay, so I've never had a problem finding other gay men; they usually find me.
In my case, there is no "secret". I don't hide the fact that I'm gay, so I've never had a problem finding other gay men; they usually find me.
I understand your problem, although
i am "out" now...and not sitting on the
fence anymore.
But, my whole interest in guys started
as bicurious.
And when i lived in a small, rural southern town,
it was nearly impossible to find a like minded guy.
But...the internet changed all that.
And coming out changed it, too.
When your persuasion is known, and not
a "secret" or something "hidden"
it is mucheasier to find people.
i am "out" now...and not sitting on the
fence anymore.
But, my whole interest in guys started
as bicurious.
And when i lived in a small, rural southern town,
it was nearly impossible to find a like minded guy.
But...the internet changed all that.
And coming out changed it, too.
When your persuasion is known, and not
a "secret" or something "hidden"
it is mucheasier to find people.
Hmmm, I think the both of you are missing his point thus far. The topic seems directed at the pool of men on here who identify themselves as straight or some semblance thereof, and yet engage in some level of fantasy/curiosity/pro-action with like males i.e. a straight guy "open enough" to want to mess around with another open-minded straight guy.
I suppose I'm shooting myself in the foot with this admission, but having gone through this bi thing for a few years now, I'm still amiss in finding ways to feel positive about this particular facet of my being. Don't get me wrong; I'm not self-loathing. I don't hate my feelings or scorn myself at finding men attractive. I think that I'm pretty diverse i.e. I have acted on attractions toward men, have had my fair share of experimentational sex with men, and as of recent, shared my first relationship. I went through the whole "circle," I suppose -- all the bases.
But realistically and in retrospect, I suppose I don't feel totally honest in admitting that I'm a bisexual too. I know men are good at sucking dick and perhaps better fulfill a sexual need than their female counterparts, and I can accept it. But all in all, I don't feel emotionally equipped enough to (1) put up with all the BS specifically associated with trying to find a "man" in this city or (2) maintain a whole emotional investment with said man. Yeah, the easy answer is (and always is), "You haven't found the right man." The realistic and honest answer to me, however, is, "So what? I would rather have the right woman."
But back to Rod's observation: On a few occasions I have had the immense pleasure speaking with people online whose views greatly match my own. I can think of a couple of guys on my IM list who are freely expressive in admitting that men are attractive, but.... agh, it's hard to explain. I suppose some outsider could read the conversations and proclaim that we're in denial; that my supposedly straight friend would definitely be into male-on-male exploration and he's just a coward. And me, yeah, I would be the lead-on. And that's damn peachy. But you know what? Perhaps the root of the camaraderie is that, you know, it doesn't matter how we communicate with each other (or how we enact live-action scenery that involves openly groping, touching, body contact). He's my "bro," if you will. I don't judge his behavior in any other way beyond the comforts of sharing a conversation.
That's "the same frame of mind" at work. Talking to the straight-curious crowd, we can be open and frank and honest about our subject matter, and yet we're not particularly worried about the critical individual on the other end (straight or gay) who's too busy appraising our words for what they imply instead of just having a good ol' conversation.
I suppose I'm shooting myself in the foot with this admission, but having gone through this bi thing for a few years now, I'm still amiss in finding ways to feel positive about this particular facet of my being. Don't get me wrong; I'm not self-loathing. I don't hate my feelings or scorn myself at finding men attractive. I think that I'm pretty diverse i.e. I have acted on attractions toward men, have had my fair share of experimentational sex with men, and as of recent, shared my first relationship. I went through the whole "circle," I suppose -- all the bases.
But realistically and in retrospect, I suppose I don't feel totally honest in admitting that I'm a bisexual too. I know men are good at sucking dick and perhaps better fulfill a sexual need than their female counterparts, and I can accept it. But all in all, I don't feel emotionally equipped enough to (1) put up with all the BS specifically associated with trying to find a "man" in this city or (2) maintain a whole emotional investment with said man. Yeah, the easy answer is (and always is), "You haven't found the right man." The realistic and honest answer to me, however, is, "So what? I would rather have the right woman."
But back to Rod's observation: On a few occasions I have had the immense pleasure speaking with people online whose views greatly match my own. I can think of a couple of guys on my IM list who are freely expressive in admitting that men are attractive, but.... agh, it's hard to explain. I suppose some outsider could read the conversations and proclaim that we're in denial; that my supposedly straight friend would definitely be into male-on-male exploration and he's just a coward. And me, yeah, I would be the lead-on. And that's damn peachy. But you know what? Perhaps the root of the camaraderie is that, you know, it doesn't matter how we communicate with each other (or how we enact live-action scenery that involves openly groping, touching, body contact). He's my "bro," if you will. I don't judge his behavior in any other way beyond the comforts of sharing a conversation.
That's "the same frame of mind" at work. Talking to the straight-curious crowd, we can be open and frank and honest about our subject matter, and yet we're not particularly worried about the critical individual on the other end (straight or gay) who's too busy appraising our words for what they imply instead of just having a good ol' conversation.
Javierdude22: [quote author=DeeBlackthorne link=board=meetgreet;num=1053808452;start=0#3 date=05/24/03 at 22:30:34]I'm still amiss in finding ways to feel positive about this particular facet of my being.
[/quote]
I guess im right at that exact point...but the loathing thing is still unclear to me. In the least ill admit im not happy with this part of myself. And the most diddficult part is that i cant have control over it. Somehow it came to be that im bi...and i dont agree but cant control it....thats the frustrating part.
The thing is id rather be with agirl....maybe its an easy way out, cause you dont have to go through the entire 'acceptance' thing....something im freakishly afraid of....you can deduct from this that no-one knows....and if its upto me itll stay like that. Im attracted to girls...flirt with them, occasionally had sex with them...but somehow i cant find the girl that can keep my interest...guys then?....well....neither....i get attracted to some guys very much, but to most not at all....im talking one in a zillion here....but i dó get attracted to them...and once someone even got my attention so long for me too step into a relationship. I fell into itunconsciously....before i knew it i was in it....even though i never wanted a relationship with a guy simply cause the idea repelled me, there i was.....in a relationship. He was totally different though, like Dee said....my 'bro'...its hard to explain....but we did things that gave me the 'best friend'feeling you had when you wer a kid, while at the same time an emotional and sexual part. The 'best'friend' in a 'bro' way kinda feeling (if im making sense) did the trick...
It weird....and i cant really get th mesage across i think...anyway
What did it imply for me with 'looking/finding a guy'? Not much...i tried the 'scene 'thing...and came back from it puking almost...it felt like the cheapest thing ever and i didnt go back after. It all depends on what you want...if its casual sex then by all means do go to the clubs...itll get you what you want. A nice causal bar would be better if you want some decent conversation, but i somehow dont wanna go there too much either. A lotta times things can happen by accident...somehow you find out someone is bi...or curious....through friends...that to me would be a better channel, personally.
Its a difficult subject if youre in it. Its a good topic, id like to see how other people deal with this thing,
Laterz
[/quote]
I guess im right at that exact point...but the loathing thing is still unclear to me. In the least ill admit im not happy with this part of myself. And the most diddficult part is that i cant have control over it. Somehow it came to be that im bi...and i dont agree but cant control it....thats the frustrating part.
The thing is id rather be with agirl....maybe its an easy way out, cause you dont have to go through the entire 'acceptance' thing....something im freakishly afraid of....you can deduct from this that no-one knows....and if its upto me itll stay like that. Im attracted to girls...flirt with them, occasionally had sex with them...but somehow i cant find the girl that can keep my interest...guys then?....well....neither....i get attracted to some guys very much, but to most not at all....im talking one in a zillion here....but i dó get attracted to them...and once someone even got my attention so long for me too step into a relationship. I fell into itunconsciously....before i knew it i was in it....even though i never wanted a relationship with a guy simply cause the idea repelled me, there i was.....in a relationship. He was totally different though, like Dee said....my 'bro'...its hard to explain....but we did things that gave me the 'best friend'feeling you had when you wer a kid, while at the same time an emotional and sexual part. The 'best'friend' in a 'bro' way kinda feeling (if im making sense) did the trick...
It weird....and i cant really get th mesage across i think...anyway
What did it imply for me with 'looking/finding a guy'? Not much...i tried the 'scene 'thing...and came back from it puking almost...it felt like the cheapest thing ever and i didnt go back after. It all depends on what you want...if its casual sex then by all means do go to the clubs...itll get you what you want. A nice causal bar would be better if you want some decent conversation, but i somehow dont wanna go there too much either. A lotta times things can happen by accident...somehow you find out someone is bi...or curious....through friends...that to me would be a better channel, personally.
Its a difficult subject if youre in it. Its a good topic, id like to see how other people deal with this thing,
Laterz
drrionelli: This is, indeed, Javierdude22, an interesting topic, inasmuch as it is open to so many interpreative considerations.
It's quite unfortunate that, in the so-called "enlightenment" of the 21st century, we still find ourselves perplexed by the most basic issue of human sexuality. Some scientists have long held the view that sexual "preference" is not necessarily an "either/or" circumstance, but rather more aptly expressed on a gradient from total homosexuality, through varying degrees of bisexuality, and on to total heterosexuality. This does make sense, especially considering that the most advantageous manner in which to control numbers in a population is to simply greatly reduce the desire to procreate (i.e., have sex with the opposite gender).
Yes, the continuation of the species is contingent upon making more of its own kind, so, indeed, we do so (currently to the tune of six billion or so). And, as far as the old "nature-v-nurture" argument, well, consider that since homosexuality is hardly encouraged in most societies, then it's likely to be more of a "nature" issue. After all, ALL straight and/or gay and/or bisexual people were born as a result of heterosexual activity.
DMW says it's no secret. Good! Nor should it be, for him or anybody else. Whether we use our genitalia with those of our own or the other sex should be no more consequential than whether we are right- or left-handed, whether we have blue or brown eyes or whether we have curly or straight hair.
Yet, some will, as rodsmith suggests, have trouble sharing this "secret" with friends. This is a less than fortunate state of affairs. Yes, we certainly don't wish to compromise the sensibilities of those close to us, but we should also be able to turn to friends for understanding and acceptance for being who we are.
Surely, we all must admit what a fantastic feeling it is when we do find that we can discuss candidly our feelings with somebody who is willing to hear, with a non-judgemental ear, what we have to say.
(Uh, did I get the point, Dee?)
It's quite unfortunate that, in the so-called "enlightenment" of the 21st century, we still find ourselves perplexed by the most basic issue of human sexuality. Some scientists have long held the view that sexual "preference" is not necessarily an "either/or" circumstance, but rather more aptly expressed on a gradient from total homosexuality, through varying degrees of bisexuality, and on to total heterosexuality. This does make sense, especially considering that the most advantageous manner in which to control numbers in a population is to simply greatly reduce the desire to procreate (i.e., have sex with the opposite gender).
Yes, the continuation of the species is contingent upon making more of its own kind, so, indeed, we do so (currently to the tune of six billion or so). And, as far as the old "nature-v-nurture" argument, well, consider that since homosexuality is hardly encouraged in most societies, then it's likely to be more of a "nature" issue. After all, ALL straight and/or gay and/or bisexual people were born as a result of heterosexual activity.
DMW says it's no secret. Good! Nor should it be, for him or anybody else. Whether we use our genitalia with those of our own or the other sex should be no more consequential than whether we are right- or left-handed, whether we have blue or brown eyes or whether we have curly or straight hair.
Yet, some will, as rodsmith suggests, have trouble sharing this "secret" with friends. This is a less than fortunate state of affairs. Yes, we certainly don't wish to compromise the sensibilities of those close to us, but we should also be able to turn to friends for understanding and acceptance for being who we are.
Surely, we all must admit what a fantastic feeling it is when we do find that we can discuss candidly our feelings with somebody who is willing to hear, with a non-judgemental ear, what we have to say.
(Uh, did I get the point, Dee?)
Right on, Dr.
I'll tell you one thing. There's something oddly comforting, relaxing, and just plain awesome about being able to talk freely and openly about sex, especially with someone in a similar position to me. Truth is, I'm a relatively straight well-endowed young man who hardly has any qualms concerning my penis. I like my endowment; I enjoy talking about it, and obviously since I'm here, I really enjoy being able to share experiences, stories, and some interesting chats with men of my ilk. Yes, there's a preference. What I mean is, "of my ilk" includes guys who may fit somewhere between the straight and bisexual part of the spectrum, who are masculine, who particularly don't enjoy the gay scene, and who are stacked up better than the norm in the dick department. Incredibly shallow? That might be the case, and though these "perks" are nice, once conversations get rolling I think the connection between myself and the guy on the other end of the modem goes well beyond the facts and figures (the height, the build, the size, etc.).
In or out, masculine or feminine, gay and otherwise, there's nothing wrong with openly proclaiming one's sexuality. I don't knock anybody for the rainbows or the triangle flags or those who prefer the scene to those who don't; that's your prerogative. I'm not one to judge. If you want to attend Pride festivals, go right ahead.
The point is, though, there's a population of guys out there who, if anything, belong in a real no man's land. Uncharacteristically defined by the standard prototypes of sexuality, these men feel at once marginalized per the inability to have an easily described sexual outlet (being bi, gay, or straight) and at the same time overwhelmingly blessed in being able to share the connection with such a select few. In my own experiences, I have talked to several men on here and in the MSN chat that utterly amaze me. Sure, we might be a bunch of horndawgs who take ample opportunity to discuss endowment and getting off with one another. But at the end of the session, guess what? I still have my bro on the end of the modem, and I'll definitely look forward to speaking with him again.
I'll tell you one thing. There's something oddly comforting, relaxing, and just plain awesome about being able to talk freely and openly about sex, especially with someone in a similar position to me. Truth is, I'm a relatively straight well-endowed young man who hardly has any qualms concerning my penis. I like my endowment; I enjoy talking about it, and obviously since I'm here, I really enjoy being able to share experiences, stories, and some interesting chats with men of my ilk. Yes, there's a preference. What I mean is, "of my ilk" includes guys who may fit somewhere between the straight and bisexual part of the spectrum, who are masculine, who particularly don't enjoy the gay scene, and who are stacked up better than the norm in the dick department. Incredibly shallow? That might be the case, and though these "perks" are nice, once conversations get rolling I think the connection between myself and the guy on the other end of the modem goes well beyond the facts and figures (the height, the build, the size, etc.).
In or out, masculine or feminine, gay and otherwise, there's nothing wrong with openly proclaiming one's sexuality. I don't knock anybody for the rainbows or the triangle flags or those who prefer the scene to those who don't; that's your prerogative. I'm not one to judge. If you want to attend Pride festivals, go right ahead.
The point is, though, there's a population of guys out there who, if anything, belong in a real no man's land. Uncharacteristically defined by the standard prototypes of sexuality, these men feel at once marginalized per the inability to have an easily described sexual outlet (being bi, gay, or straight) and at the same time overwhelmingly blessed in being able to share the connection with such a select few. In my own experiences, I have talked to several men on here and in the MSN chat that utterly amaze me. Sure, we might be a bunch of horndawgs who take ample opportunity to discuss endowment and getting off with one another. But at the end of the session, guess what? I still have my bro on the end of the modem, and I'll definitely look forward to speaking with him again.
chipster: Dee,
I think I am in the "no mans land" you describe. It is comforting to think I'm not alone. When asked if I am str8, bi or gay, I answer "bi" buy I don't feel that is a correct description. It's just the closest of the three choices. I sometimes feel I have misled people with whom I chat, when I use that label. I wish there was a better label for me, lol.
You are much younger than me, but I have learned a lot from you. Thanks!
Chip
I think I am in the "no mans land" you describe. It is comforting to think I'm not alone. When asked if I am str8, bi or gay, I answer "bi" buy I don't feel that is a correct description. It's just the closest of the three choices. I sometimes feel I have misled people with whom I chat, when I use that label. I wish there was a better label for me, lol.
You are much younger than me, but I have learned a lot from you. Thanks!
Chip
Javierdude22: I guess this topic has a wide spectrum of topics that are relevant here....
Being open about your sexuality, how you deal with it yourself, acting upon it, etc etc...and they all matter.
Str8, Bi, gay...i dont care what the label is...in a way ive told myself i just fall for 'people'....and not for fixed principles concerning sexuality i.e. having to choose a side....what the hell is a side anyway.
Look...like i said, to each their own...ive been through some shitty times with this subject....i think everybody not conforming to the str8-ness paradigm has...and out of that we all form an opinion on how we deal with this. For some it takes years....for some its a closed deal...for some it takes while but they get where they want to be. Some need good friends to help them through it, some their relatives, some are forced to deal with it alone, some choose it like that. I think i chose to deal with it by myself...and maybe like this thorugh the internet...cause well...psychologically i think thats because if you get judged here...you press control-alt-delete and your on your way to a comfortable nights rest. The world on the other hand is in your face...in every aspect of your life...thats what makes it so much more difficult.
We all heard the 'my friends dont talk to me' stories, the 'i havent spoken to my dad in 10 years' thing...and i chose to not go through it right now i guess....i know eventually....ill have to deal with it...but well see when
Maybe im going a bit too deep on this, but its an important aspect as well. Especially for finding someone that matches your opinions and preferences. I like people...and they were girls in most, and guys sometimes. I dont know where the balance will go to, we'll see....but i do like talking about it very much...in here, chatrooms or whatever....its good to deal with it cause otherwise it can take a hell of a lot longer to accept how that little grey factory in your head works, then necessary.
Being open about your sexuality, how you deal with it yourself, acting upon it, etc etc...and they all matter.
Str8, Bi, gay...i dont care what the label is...in a way ive told myself i just fall for 'people'....and not for fixed principles concerning sexuality i.e. having to choose a side....what the hell is a side anyway.
Look...like i said, to each their own...ive been through some shitty times with this subject....i think everybody not conforming to the str8-ness paradigm has...and out of that we all form an opinion on how we deal with this. For some it takes years....for some its a closed deal...for some it takes while but they get where they want to be. Some need good friends to help them through it, some their relatives, some are forced to deal with it alone, some choose it like that. I think i chose to deal with it by myself...and maybe like this thorugh the internet...cause well...psychologically i think thats because if you get judged here...you press control-alt-delete and your on your way to a comfortable nights rest. The world on the other hand is in your face...in every aspect of your life...thats what makes it so much more difficult.
We all heard the 'my friends dont talk to me' stories, the 'i havent spoken to my dad in 10 years' thing...and i chose to not go through it right now i guess....i know eventually....ill have to deal with it...but well see when
Maybe im going a bit too deep on this, but its an important aspect as well. Especially for finding someone that matches your opinions and preferences. I like people...and they were girls in most, and guys sometimes. I dont know where the balance will go to, we'll see....but i do like talking about it very much...in here, chatrooms or whatever....its good to deal with it cause otherwise it can take a hell of a lot longer to accept how that little grey factory in your head works, then necessary.
rodsmith: It's just that I'll be chatting with someone who claims they're st8 online but into j/o with me. They ask you if you're bi. If i say no then we continue. If I say yes then he disappears. It's all levels of interpretation. I may consider myself bi but am I really? Just because I like to j/o with other guys. I have not done anything else. Or do you at least do oral with a guy to be considered bi as some guys think? Or is it just because you have sex with women and men? What's the difference between bi and gay then? All gay men never had sex with women? At any rate I'm glad to have piqued a good discussion with you guys. Many men need to talk about this, the ones that are on the border, having online relationships and considering going further. So many guys don't want anything to do with you if you aren't good looking. Many just want to get off without any investment in getting to know you. I have talked to literally thousands of guys online over the last 8 years and the degrees of sexual identity interpretation are staggering. There's no way I can discuss this with anyone in my family or anyone I know because of the "label" that will result. Plus it would raise enormous issues in my marriage. Now I know why guys get divorced and start to enjoy same sex relationships. So the question is still " Am I str8/curious or bi/curious?"
The responses here are similar every time
we discuss labels.
I think it is really cool.
I can relate to what you are feeling.
My whole life i haven't known "what i am"
because the labels dont fit.
I wish I was a "TOTAL" something.
I envy those guys..."TOTAL TOP" TOTAL BOTTOM
TOTAL GAY. TOTAL STRAIGHT"
I am a combination of every single
one of the things i mentioned.
Sort of...not a whole anything.
I suspected it might be easier if i just
started calling myself one label or another.
So, i call myself gay now.
I base that on the fact that i just
date and seek relationships with guys now.
But, i'm still hot for girls, sexually at times.
So...
???
the mystery continues.
we discuss labels.
I think it is really cool.
I can relate to what you are feeling.
My whole life i haven't known "what i am"
because the labels dont fit.
I wish I was a "TOTAL" something.
I envy those guys..."TOTAL TOP" TOTAL BOTTOM
TOTAL GAY. TOTAL STRAIGHT"
I am a combination of every single
one of the things i mentioned.
Sort of...not a whole anything.
I suspected it might be easier if i just
started calling myself one label or another.
So, i call myself gay now.
I base that on the fact that i just
date and seek relationships with guys now.
But, i'm still hot for girls, sexually at times.
So...
???
the mystery continues.
[quote author=rodsmith link=board=meetgreet;num=1053808452;start=0#11 date=05/26/03 at 07:41:21]Or is it just because you have sex with women and men? What's the difference between bi and gay then? All gay men never had sex with women? So the question is still " Am I str8/curious or bi/curious?"[/quote]
Different people will have different opinions; I can only offer you mine. Stop thinking in terms of whom you have sex with; 'gay' is a noun and adjective, not a verb. In other words, it's a state of mind, not a sexual activity. There are a lot of gay men who marry and have sex with no one except their wives, but they are gay nonetheless. Just because they can sexually function with a woman doesn't mean they aren't primarily attracted to men. All the talk about not labelling yourself ... well, I don't subscribe to it. Don't limit yourself by using the label ... sure, I'll go along with that. Labels can be useful conventions of speech. If I describe my preference by discussing where I fit on the Kinsey Scale, the person with whom I'm speaking looks at me with a blank look. If I use the label gay instead, he has a pretty good idea what I'm saying. It boils down to this: Are you primarily attracted to women sexually? Then you're straight. Do you prefer men? Then you're gay. Do you find a good mix of both men and women sexually attractive? Then you're bi. Do you fit in the 'straight' category, but occasionally have ideas about what it might be like to have sex with men? That's what I would classify as 'bi-curious'. There are, of course, many variations in between, and there are no hard and fast rules, but those are definitions that many, I'm confident, would deem valid.
Different people will have different opinions; I can only offer you mine. Stop thinking in terms of whom you have sex with; 'gay' is a noun and adjective, not a verb. In other words, it's a state of mind, not a sexual activity. There are a lot of gay men who marry and have sex with no one except their wives, but they are gay nonetheless. Just because they can sexually function with a woman doesn't mean they aren't primarily attracted to men. All the talk about not labelling yourself ... well, I don't subscribe to it. Don't limit yourself by using the label ... sure, I'll go along with that. Labels can be useful conventions of speech. If I describe my preference by discussing where I fit on the Kinsey Scale, the person with whom I'm speaking looks at me with a blank look. If I use the label gay instead, he has a pretty good idea what I'm saying. It boils down to this: Are you primarily attracted to women sexually? Then you're straight. Do you prefer men? Then you're gay. Do you find a good mix of both men and women sexually attractive? Then you're bi. Do you fit in the 'straight' category, but occasionally have ideas about what it might be like to have sex with men? That's what I would classify as 'bi-curious'. There are, of course, many variations in between, and there are no hard and fast rules, but those are definitions that many, I'm confident, would deem valid.
But I can see why someone would rather opt for a non-label. To be quite honest, if someone prolifically describes where they fit on Kinsey's scale, hell, you're asking for someone to tune out. I could recount all of my sexual experiences and indicate which ones did and did not affect my sexual psyche, but rather than bore someone to tears with that information, I would rather opt for being "open." Or some other casual statement: "It takes all kinds. Women are good for _____ and men are good for _______."
It's easy to tell someone with whom I won't have any deep conversations on the subject, "Yeah, I swing both ways." I won't have to worry about what they think because, to be honest, I'm not trying to prove myself to anyone. But on the other hand, I have had interesting discussions on sexuality with people who were open-minded enough to listen and comfortable enough to get their questions answered. It's hard describing a no-man's-land classification on sexuality, but at the same time, getting an affirmative nod or even an inkling of understanding across is beyond rewarding.
Labels or not, DMW, they're convenient and simultaneously limiting with regard to how others identify with the individual. You're gay. I don't care how you feel toward women or what attractions you have with the sex; it is a preconceived and set standard of expectation that you always-already must meet in this society. (Perhaps the biggest burden of proof a gay man might have is in the way he conducts in public. Is he gay and masculine? Or does he stereotypically swish about, refer to himself and peers as "girl," or get into the latest circuit party/techno music genre?) That goes for "bi," "straight," even "open."
All I know is, I took too long of my life trying to figure out my own feelings, so I'm not about to let people limit those years of growth.
It's easy to tell someone with whom I won't have any deep conversations on the subject, "Yeah, I swing both ways." I won't have to worry about what they think because, to be honest, I'm not trying to prove myself to anyone. But on the other hand, I have had interesting discussions on sexuality with people who were open-minded enough to listen and comfortable enough to get their questions answered. It's hard describing a no-man's-land classification on sexuality, but at the same time, getting an affirmative nod or even an inkling of understanding across is beyond rewarding.
Labels or not, DMW, they're convenient and simultaneously limiting with regard to how others identify with the individual. You're gay. I don't care how you feel toward women or what attractions you have with the sex; it is a preconceived and set standard of expectation that you always-already must meet in this society. (Perhaps the biggest burden of proof a gay man might have is in the way he conducts in public. Is he gay and masculine? Or does he stereotypically swish about, refer to himself and peers as "girl," or get into the latest circuit party/techno music genre?) That goes for "bi," "straight," even "open."
All I know is, I took too long of my life trying to figure out my own feelings, so I'm not about to let people limit those years of growth.
[quote author=DeeBlackthorne link=board=meetgreet;num=1053808452;start=12#14 date=05/26/03 at 12:16:56]But I can see why someone would rather opt for a non-label.[/quote]
I don't disagree in the least. While labels can be convenient, they are certainly not mandatory. In particular, if someone perceives a negative stigma to be attached to a certain label, he should not tag himself with a term he finds offensive. Use a term like gay, bi, bi-curious or whatever only if you are comfortable with what you associate with it. You don't need to insult yourself; there are plenty of folks out there who are more than ready to do that for you. But I wouldn't worry about them.
Don't misinterpret what I meant when I used the word 'limit'. I meant that I can call myself 'gay' without bothering with the baggage that others may attach to the word. I don't swish. I don't lisp. I don't wear mascara. I don't call everyone 'Mary'. I don't walk around with one hand on my hip while the other wrist is limp. I don't have a talent for styling hair. I don't limit myself by conforming to others' misconceptions of what it means to be 'gay'; that's all I meant. I'm comfortable with the label.
Nor should you. It is your life, and you have the right to lead it without having to worry about what others think or how they judge you. They have their own lives; let them mess theirs up, not yours!
I don't disagree in the least. While labels can be convenient, they are certainly not mandatory. In particular, if someone perceives a negative stigma to be attached to a certain label, he should not tag himself with a term he finds offensive. Use a term like gay, bi, bi-curious or whatever only if you are comfortable with what you associate with it. You don't need to insult yourself; there are plenty of folks out there who are more than ready to do that for you. But I wouldn't worry about them.
Don't misinterpret what I meant when I used the word 'limit'. I meant that I can call myself 'gay' without bothering with the baggage that others may attach to the word. I don't swish. I don't lisp. I don't wear mascara. I don't call everyone 'Mary'. I don't walk around with one hand on my hip while the other wrist is limp. I don't have a talent for styling hair. I don't limit myself by conforming to others' misconceptions of what it means to be 'gay'; that's all I meant. I'm comfortable with the label.
Nor should you. It is your life, and you have the right to lead it without having to worry about what others think or how they judge you. They have their own lives; let them mess theirs up, not yours!
sammygirly: Amen guys - you are what you are, whatever that may be.
I prefer men to women, but have a healthy yum-instinct with same-sex relations. I say I'm bi, but I only mean sexually. I need a man for relationship purposes in order to be satisfied, however sex with another woman is more than a-ok in my book. So DMW makes a good point way up yonder....labels dont have to be all about sexual preference.
Am I straight with bi tendencies?? ...or am I bisexual? The word seems to fit my situation...
Everyone will have their own definitions, which is good. The only person to define you SHOULD be you. Too bad that it's still such a taboo subject for discussion among most men...
I prefer men to women, but have a healthy yum-instinct with same-sex relations. I say I'm bi, but I only mean sexually. I need a man for relationship purposes in order to be satisfied, however sex with another woman is more than a-ok in my book. So DMW makes a good point way up yonder....labels dont have to be all about sexual preference.
Am I straight with bi tendencies?? ...or am I bisexual? The word seems to fit my situation...
Everyone will have their own definitions, which is good. The only person to define you SHOULD be you. Too bad that it's still such a taboo subject for discussion among most men...
[quote author=DoubleMeatWhopper link=board=meetgreet;num=1053808452;start=12#15 date=05/26/03 at 15:44:27]I don't limit myself by conforming to others' misconceptions of what it means to be 'gay'; that's all I meant. I'm comfortable with the label.[/quote]
But I think you're misinterpreting me, too.
You say that your behaviors don't necessarily coincide with popular misconceptions, but I was referring to a more pre-emptive way of dealing with that label problem. Abandoning a label may not do anything to eradicate those stereotypes and the origins from whence they came, but that type of ground becomes a sort of safe haven for people who aren't ready to start processing their own lives and trying to figure out which label suits them.
On the one hand, it's a pre-quel; processing one's feelings without worrying so much about which label "best fits" the specific person. On the other hand, it's a new identity to forge: Rather than attempt to pigeonhole oneself, even if it's for the convenience of the others in the society surrounding the individual, the non-nomenclature begins simultaneously a buck against the popular conception and a source of empowerment. (It's a similar argument for the have-nots in society: that, though there's no direct access to the rewards of the society, the plethora of experience and investment into such an anti-bourgeois way of life is empowering.)
All I'm saying is, should someone decide that "Hey, this bi or gay thing or whatever just isn't my thing," good. It's not my thing, either. So I do my thing with guys on the sly; no big deal. I'm plenty comfortable with who I am and that obsessing over such an insignificant label is nothing but a waste of time. And so goes my non-labeling brethren who realize it's a waste of time assessing one's placement on the Kinsey scale, and instead doing what they do best -- enjoy life and bond with others who can share such sentiments.
Let's face it. If a straight friend of mine feels comfortable enough around me to show emotion, to put trust in my feelings and thoughts, to share a few brews, and dare I say it, opt for some sexual fun -- hey, regardless of his heterosexuality, I'm not questioning a thing!
But I think you're misinterpreting me, too.
You say that your behaviors don't necessarily coincide with popular misconceptions, but I was referring to a more pre-emptive way of dealing with that label problem. Abandoning a label may not do anything to eradicate those stereotypes and the origins from whence they came, but that type of ground becomes a sort of safe haven for people who aren't ready to start processing their own lives and trying to figure out which label suits them.
On the one hand, it's a pre-quel; processing one's feelings without worrying so much about which label "best fits" the specific person. On the other hand, it's a new identity to forge: Rather than attempt to pigeonhole oneself, even if it's for the convenience of the others in the society surrounding the individual, the non-nomenclature begins simultaneously a buck against the popular conception and a source of empowerment. (It's a similar argument for the have-nots in society: that, though there's no direct access to the rewards of the society, the plethora of experience and investment into such an anti-bourgeois way of life is empowering.)
All I'm saying is, should someone decide that "Hey, this bi or gay thing or whatever just isn't my thing," good. It's not my thing, either. So I do my thing with guys on the sly; no big deal. I'm plenty comfortable with who I am and that obsessing over such an insignificant label is nothing but a waste of time. And so goes my non-labeling brethren who realize it's a waste of time assessing one's placement on the Kinsey scale, and instead doing what they do best -- enjoy life and bond with others who can share such sentiments.
Let's face it. If a straight friend of mine feels comfortable enough around me to show emotion, to put trust in my feelings and thoughts, to share a few brews, and dare I say it, opt for some sexual fun -- hey, regardless of his heterosexuality, I'm not questioning a thing!
[quote author=DeeBlackthorne link=board=meetgreet;num=1053808452;start=12#17 date=05/26/03 at 16:44:52]If a straight friend of mine feels comfortable enough around me to show emotion, to put trust in my feelings and thoughts, to share a few brews, and dare I say it, opt for some sexual fun -- hey, regardless of his heterosexuality, I'm not questioning a thing![/quote]
That's probably the healthiest approach. I've been there a few times myself. However, realise that in referring to the dude as 'a straight friend', you just hung a sexuality-based label on him! Whether we label ourselves or not, someone else will. It's inescapable in today's society.
That's probably the healthiest approach. I've been there a few times myself. However, realise that in referring to the dude as 'a straight friend', you just hung a sexuality-based label on him! Whether we label ourselves or not, someone else will. It's inescapable in today's society.
[quote author=DoubleMeatWhopper link=board=meetgreet;num=1053808452;start=12#18 date=05/26/03 at 17:11:54]That's probably the healthiest approach...[/quote]
Yeah. So even if labels are more pervasive than we might think, it's all a matter of making ourselves individuals first.
(And by the by, the "straight" reference you mention in your post: The sentence would not have had the impact it did unless I included the word. Of course you know as well as I do that the "straight" is of little to no consequence to me. Any friend that proves as receptive is a blessing.)
Yeah. So even if labels are more pervasive than we might think, it's all a matter of making ourselves individuals first.
(And by the by, the "straight" reference you mention in your post: The sentence would not have had the impact it did unless I included the word. Of course you know as well as I do that the "straight" is of little to no consequence to me. Any friend that proves as receptive is a blessing.)
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