Biofuel flight 'a publicity stunt'[?]

Hellboy0

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Depends on latitude.

The south of the UK receives from about 200 W/m2 on an overcast day to 1.3 KW/m2 in full sun. A minimum worthwhile installation is about 10m2. A typical cell is 8-10% efficient although some new technologies have raised this to as high as 40%

As an approximation a typical panel on a south facing roof will generate 120Kwh per square metre per year. A household may use 3000-5000 Kwh per year so would need 25-40 m2 at least to be self sufficient.

Typical payback on an average installation cost of at least £10000 and a use of 4000 Kwh per annum is thus about 35 years - far longer than the lifespan of current systems and 5 times the typical period a home is owned. There's simply no incentive for most people at present. The payback time estimates have been hotly debated with some quoting periods of over 45 years, back in 2005.

As volumes increase, prices will fall but it's got some way to go before it's mainstream, even allowing for grants. But I think it will happen, eventually and especially when it's built into new houses as standard.

What about wind power in your area? As for solar, crap, here in the Southern Hemisphere (back me up, Rugbypup), passive and electrical systems are extremely practical!!!! One of the big disincentives, though, is that the costs are high and the government gives crap rebates... hopefully the new Rudd government will make the difference that the Head-In-The-Sand Liberals wouldn't!
 

Rugbypup

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The kiwis are big on no nuclear and have a lot of hydro and the like.

While i do agree there should be more, a shit load more solar, wind, tidal and hydro, these will not answer all the planets energy problems.

But they will make a big difference to atmospheric CO2 which is slowly killing our world.
 

Pretend_Woman

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Of course it's a publicity stunt - what a trite and obvious thing to comment on.

They flew the plane specifically to get some exposure for the idea and I applaud them for that. The more people think of alternatives rather than sneering, the better.

Who knows, when your home is flooded and you're sat on the roof in a piss filled nappy, the helicopter that winches you to safety might be powered by biofuel. Be sure to wave them on their way and tell them to stop with their publicity stunts.
 

dongalong

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I think that a big problem with all these new alternative energy technologies is progress, there is a huge risk investing in one kind of device because often someone invents a similar device which is simpler, cheaper, more reliable and better performing that immediately renders the first device obselete.
e.g. Solar panels keep getting more and more efficient, cheaper to make etc.

If a device like this actually worked,(I have my doubts) it would make almost every other type of energy device seem uneccessary.
 

SteveHd

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Biofuels suck, folks. Do the math: It take more energy and resources to produce than is created by the fuel ...
I don't believe that. What I've heard is that 60-80% of the energy is needed for production. In other words, the yield is 20-40%, but that is a net yield.
Hate to say it, neclear, fission today, fussion tomorrow is the best route so far.
I totally agree! But neither of those can power an airplane in the foreseeable future.
 

bimmli

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That was the entire rationale behind the thread, perhaps I was to subtle.:biggrin1:

My apologies if I somehow stepped on your toes. I was merely responding to some of the other posts.

How would any of those power an airplane?

Obviously there are technologies yet to be developed to address this particular problem. For the time being, petroleum products will still need to be used. The idea is to wean ourselves off total use of fossil fuels to provide our energy needs. Hopefully scientists will continually invent new technologies.

Aren't we already doing that to the corn crop with the new Ethanol Bill that the conservatives rammed through the congress? Corn hasn't become scarce and the price hasn't risen that I know of...

Plus, the future of bio fuels is in the production of high yield algae, not from crops.

I haven't heard of high yield algae being produced to provide bio-fuels. However, doing so would be beneficial and not affect prices of corn and wheat. In fact it would create an entire new industry and provide paying jobs. That's a good thing.
Bio-fuels are not yet being used in the amount that would make corn and wheat scarce, but I do know that prices have been affected.
 

Rugbypup

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I don't believe that. What I've heard is that 60-80% of the energy is needed for production. In other words, the yield is 20-40%, but that is a net yield.I totally agree! But neither of those can power an airplane in the foreseeable future.

Why not, it can power a submarine?

Only takes time and will.
 

dong20

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Of course it's a publicity stunt - what a trite and obvious thing to comment on.

They flew the plane specifically to get some exposure for the idea and I applaud them for that. The more people think of alternatives rather than sneering, the better.

Who knows, when your home is flooded and you're sat on the roof in a piss filled nappy, the helicopter that winches you to safety might be powered by biofuel. Be sure to wave them on their way and tell them to stop with their publicity stunts.

Whatever you say.

The point being that the biofuel, as used in this instance isn't really an alternative, yet is being touted as one. The reference to algae based alternatives is almost an afterthought. I'd wager a significant portion of the general public have no real idea what biofuel is, how it's made and more importantly how it is being misrepresented, other than perhaps, that it's not from 'Iraq' and it sounds groovy because it has bio in the name. It's only trite and obvious to some.

That this could be taken as a huge step forward when it really isn't was the ethos behind this thread; that people shouldn't take such things at face value. After all, it's easier to do so when the alternative may require, actual sacrifice.

Anyway, I don't know why I'm explaining this, you clearly seem to have a handle on the issue. But I do have one question; while I get the GW induced rising sea levels flooding my locale bit, I have to ask; why would I be wearing a nappy?

I did pose the question; Am I being too cynical? I think I deserve some credit for at least anticipating such a trite and obvious response as yours.

Also, if you are who I suspect you may be, hi.:smile:
 

SteveHd

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Why not, it can power a submarine? // Only takes time and will.
In a word: politics. It's technically possible but that's actually irrelevant.

History note: The USAF did test flights with a B-36 and an operating nuclear reactor on board. The plane was powered by its standard engines. They merely tested to see how the reactor would behave in a bumpy flight. Results: It did o.k. The big concern: crashes! :eek:
 

dongalong

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The Searl Effect
John Searl created a free energy generator decades ago called the SEG - Searl effect generator, during an experiment he also dicovered that under certain conditions the device produced inverse gravity effects causing the device to levitate. In the late sixties, he created a team to build "the Levity disc" which basically, is a man made flying saucer. The press were invited to see the device fly and take photographs so you'll find printed evidence.

So talk about free energy not happening in our lifetimes isn't entirely correct, if you do some research on him on Google and Youtube you'll discover a fascinating story about how difficult it is to get new technologies accepted.

They are currently working on a new generation of SEG, and afterwards they will work on a new Levity disc.
 

findfirefox

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God, what the hell is the name of the theory of just keeping the planet nice even if their is no "global warming"? Well I can't remember what the name but thats what I'm all for.

Who cares if there's global warming, why don't we keep the place we live nice anyway?

On another note, isn't there concern that "biofuels" are doing more damage then they are preventing? Something to do with the farms or something...
 

Rugbypup

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God, what the hell is the name of the theory of just keeping the planet nice even if their is no "global warming"? Well I can't remember what the name but thats what I'm all for.

Who cares if there's global warming, why don't we keep the place we live nice anyway?

On another note, isn't there concern that "biofuels" are doing more damage then they are preventing? Something to do with the farms or something...

That would be the theory of bollocks.

Reason to care... global warming = DEATH

Food crop price increasing, we've already been there.
 

D_Joseba_Guntertwat

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No scientists deny that global warming is happening. A small minority deny that it's man-made, but can we afford to take the risk? I think we should do whatever possible to reduce CO2 emissions (and other greenhouse gases and pollutants).
Anyway, how about we just build a massive solar panel thingy over the Sahara desert. Hardly anyone lives there, the countries around there could do with the extra investment, and we'd get massive amounts of extra energy.